British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[Pornpants1]

Litebulbs

It was not just this dispute (within BA)that I was inferring, just in general within the UK.

Certainly it is something openly acknowledged within UNITE.The courts appear to lean against it(when interpreting legislation), the press (apart from the gaurdian) seem to be against it, and the general public appear to be against it.

I said

even your branch chair admits this

so if BASSA are saying it, it must be true

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Pornpants1

Litebulbs, BALPA had agreed to the remuneration package for "openskies" pilots. hope this helps and you get to read it prior to the MOD removing it since it has little to do with the ongoing debate

It has everything to do with the debate, as it is a comparison to how both groups that fly have dealt with a perceived threat to their own terms and conditions.

[The Blu Riband]

Why not let new flight crew be recruited on the same terms as BarbiesBoyfriend at a wholly owned BA subsidiary, in the UK and not just overseas?

Wrong thread, however:

Even the locos pay their capts well.
There is little difference between them and BA shorthaul. It is not easy to make a direct comparison re hours flown, a/c types, experience and market rates.
But, there is plenty of easy to find evidence that shows this.
Check the CAA site.

The main difference is in co-pilot pay.
The locos pay very little for new entrants generally but their training costs are much higher; also the experience reqts for longhaul make that much more difficult.

Remember that Balpa offered to staff Openskies with BA pilots on Openskies t & c's.

I don't understand why BA cabin crew always have to bring pilots pay into question when this is about an IFCE issue.

Sure, pilots get paid more than crew, and there are pilots in the UK who would work for less. But, interestingly, BA have had great difficulty recruiting pilots of the calibre required in the recent past; and have had to recruit from across europe. Yes , there are probably 2-300 pilots in the UK looking for work. But I guess BA have interviewed them; probably more than once.

So, assuming he applied, if Barbiesboyfriend was up to scratch he would have been offered a position. Maybe he is happier with his present company.

[flapsforty]

Relevant or not, this thread is not about the pilots“ deal.

Cease and desist.

[windows69]

why dont you go to your balpa forum and have a read of what one of your very own colleagues has to say on the matter.

[The Blu Riband]

on the matter

what matter?

[Pornpants1]

windows69

Is there any chance that you could come back and expand upon or refute any of the arguments put forward on here with reference to all your previous claims?

The reason that perhaps you and your BASSA colleagues don't get much sympathy on this forum is because you make spurious unsubstantiated claims based upon "galley FM" or what you read on "other" forums, then cease to back them up with an meaningful evidence.

[TheKabaka]

the fact you were being paid £166 p/h

Is not a fact. I'm not sure how you got this figure. If connected to annual salary then this is paid regardless of what the pilot is doing (ie VCC or sitting at home they are still paid basic).

Pilots on VCC earn the same allowance they would if operating as pilots. To be clear this is about £2.80 per hour from check in to check out. (just checked a 4 day HKG is 84 hours away from base= £235). In addition they will earn £9 per flying hour(again on the HKG trip above its 24.5 hours=£220.50)

So total allowance weather a pilot or VCC =£455.50. Compare this to what the "normal CC" might earn on the same trip.

I hope that this puts the myth to bed about how much pilots are getting for doing VCC duties. It is not to line their own pockets.

Also worth noting a majority of VCC are not pilots. What do they get as allowances

I hope this post stays as it is a real point of misunderstanding amongst crew

[demomonkey]

Good post TheKabaka, pity someone wouldn't post it on CrewForum or elsewhere to try and show how distorted BASSA's figures are.

[Hand Solo]

It wouldn't be believed, only posts which support and reinforce their mindset are read. A prime example is the recent post from a pilot on the BALPA forum inviting us to support cabin crew, which was cross-posted on to the BASSA forum within minutes of it appearing on BALPA, and has also reached Crew Forum. The militants are all over it, proclaiming how good it is that a pilot finally 'gets it' and if only the rest would listen to him. What they haven't reported is how the rambling and factually incorrect case made by the poster was shot down in flames within, literally, minutes by those who had read BA's proposal rather than getting all their information from their wifes BASSA newsletters. The militants continue to take succour from this misguided individuals comments and his pilot colleagues simply roll their eyes at his naivety.

[Caribbean Boy]

Pilots on £166ph

TheKabaka wrote:

Quote:
the fact you were being paid £166 p/h

Is not a fact. I'm not sure how you got this figure. If connected to annual salary then this is paid regardless of what the pilot is doing (ie VCC or sitting at home they are still paid basic).

The £166ph figure is based on the annual salary of the best-paid pilots divided by the hours worked. It came from Len McLuskey, Unite assistant general secretary, who said last March: ''Far from cutting cabin crew costs, BA is now operating the world's most expensive crew in a bid to break its far cheaper, world-class workforce.

''Where is the sense in running an ever-creaky contingency operation built on throwing money at £166-an-hour pilots pretending to be crew when they have nearly 12,000 fully-trained professionals who should be working?

''Dividing your workforce like this is madness. It should be parked in the hangar before it does needless and long-term damage to the good working relations between pilots and crew that are critical in aviation.

''Strike-breakers - whether they are pilots or other BA colleagues - acting as cabin crew are misguided. Their actions are not solving this crisis, they are helping prolong it, and they should not expect thanks from BA for their troubles because this company will turn on them in due course just as they have turned on the crew.

''The sooner they get on with doing their own jobs and not crew's, the quicker this dispute is settled and the better for everyone.''

[TightSlot]

My colleague flaps put it politely - I'm not so nice.

Final warning - this thread is not about BALPA and Pilots - Next person that posts about these subjects gets a deletion and a thread-ban. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.

OK?

[Middy]

Thanks Tightslot. Maybe we can get back to the real problem here which is hopefully averting any more strikes by cabin crew and getting this airline back up and running with the right people doing their own jobs for the benefit of all in the company.

[MissM]

I don't care what our pilots might have been earning for operating as cabin crew. It's the fact that they have been operating as cabin crew during our strike which I, and many other striking cabin crew, have a problem with.

This also includes regular cabin crew, BA ground staff who have been put through training and ex temporary cabin crew who have been brought back with the simple purpose of breaking our strike. What they have done is to undermine our union and I'm sorry to say how extremely disappointed I'm with these individuals.

At work, onboard the aircraft, I will remain professional as always but downroute and off duty I, and many of my striking colleagues are of this attitude, will never socialise with any of them.

[arem]

Tightslot

You weren't a BOAC Captain in a past life by some chance? - we always thought we were God incarnate!!

[fly12345]

Miss M,
What you are referring to it is called "damage limitation" just to keep you and everyone else employed.

[midman]

Originally Posted by MissM

At work, onboard the aircraft, I will remain professional as always but downroute and off duty I, and many of my striking colleagues are of this attitude, will never socialise with any of them.

Glad to hear of your professionalism on board, but sad to hear you won't be socialising with us pilots downroute.

Never mind, as you and your striking colleagues are in the minority we shall still have plenty of company. And if the atmosphere down route with the non-strikers continues as it did during the strikes, we'll be having a great time without your involvement.

[ShandyBoy]

As the majority of crew are actually choosing to come to work, those that decide not to socialise with strike breakers will be in the minority, so carry on with childish threats, you'll be the 'Billy No Mates' in the crew hotel.

As people have the right to strike, they also have the right to work and saying you won't socialise with people because they haven't acted as you have is down right juvenile, suggest people grow up and behave like adults

[MissM]

What you are referring to it is called "damage limitation" just to keep you and everyone else employed.

Different opinions. What I'm referring to is pure black legging.

Glad to hear of your professionalism on board, but sad to hear you won't be socialising with us pilots downroute.

Never mind, as you and your striking colleagues are in the minority we shall still have plenty of company. And if the atmosphere down route with the non-strikers continues as it did during the strikes, we'll be having a great time without your involvement.

If you had been at BFC you could have been of a different opinion. How do you know we are in the minority? Because WW has said otherwise and presented some numbers? Wait a minute. I forgot BA is not allowed to lie as it's a PLC.

[demomonkey]

From MissM:
What they have done is to undermine our union and I'm sorry to say how extremely disappointed I'm with these individuals.

That's one perspective. Another would be that BASSA tried to ransom WW to giving in (as has historically happened) at a time when (a.) BA is losing money had over fist, (b.) the economy is in dire straits (c.) airlines are going bust like never before.

So all those who volunteered probably went through some decision process of "Do I let the loony element of BASSA risk my long term career prospects over petty issues whilst here in my department we're making X savings which is affecting me by £Y per year".

So I put to you and your die-hard colleagues, when BASSA shows such disregard to the source of their and other groups pay cheques maybe it is you lot that are undermining the rest of us? I think it is the majority of BA employees that should be shunning the deluded minority of CC for blatant stupidism (G Bush Dictionary of Egnlish)!

Now, in the cold light of day review the ACTUAL offers BA and BASSA discussed and please remember that at NO time were the scare tactics of £11k and all the other fictions ever formally proposed. And do you as a BASSA member know what they proposed for you to accept without consulting you?

You have placed alot of trust in that organisations hands and they don't deserve it!

From MissM:
If you had been at BFC you could have been of a different opinion.

If you'd be on the planes full of grateful passengers looked after by motivated and professional REAL cabin crew looking down on BFC you might have a different opinion too.