British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[Tiramisu]

All quotes-Miss M

Crew who decided to cross the picket line surely had their reasons: not believing in a strike

Absolutely! It's the wrong fight, some of us made informed decisions based on the facts presented to us, and accepted that BA's original offer was fair and more than generous.

not having the guts to go through with it

It takes more courage to come to work and endure the wrath and cowardice of the BASSA bullies that some of us have to now.

not wanting to lose a good trip (amazing that NRT, SYD and HKG had no problems getting crew...),

Incorrect.
We all lost money, be it lucrative 3 day trips or NRT/SYD/HKG on Worldwide.

not wanting to lose staff travel

Fair point but not the sole reason for all for coming to work during a strike.

or possibly hoping for a promotion (it 's not very good if your file has the word STRIKE marked all over it)

Promotion wouldn't be on everyone's agenda as there was a mix of all grades who came to work.

or thinking that other crew are striking so no need to do it myself because I will still be on same terms and conditions.

Again, Willie Walsh has publicly stated (during the same forum that I quoted previously) that there would be one offer for all of us whether you striked or came to work. So whilst the thought may have been on some crew's minds, it's not going to happen, and no one could have been certain that would be the case. But I definitely don't think it was a case of 'other crew are striking so no need to do it myself' as you say.

I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my own views.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by Caribbean Boy

Litebulbs,

Most of what you suggest is what BA calls New Fleet.

Most, but definitely not all. You use Mr Walsh's words about nobody loosing money as the benchmark. You then simplify the conditions of the job, with the protection of CAA limits on working hours/radiation limits etc. Change the grades to the LGW model and maintain the senior ranks wages and raise the post 97 pay at all stations.

More jobs would be at risk, but there were 3000 employees who expressed an interest previously.

Simples.

[M.Mouse]

From what I understand is that the judge could have ruled differently if the situation had been different.

MissM, I am having trouble interpreting what you mean. A judgement is based on the evidence presented. Is it not stating the obvious that a judgement would be different if the evidence had been different?

A blank piece of paper, woking more efficiently, new grades and pay rises for all.

Litebulbs, what you state may be desirable from your point of view but look at how it would be seen from the wider perspective: Many proposals turned down. 16 months of protracted negotiation. CC strike. Back to the drawing board for a fresh start.

That just is not going to happen. It would appear that intransigence and striking forces a new look at the proposals by the BA side. WW has stated that he will not reward bad behaviour. I interpret that as meaning he will not allow Unite/BASSA to be seen to have gained a single thing for what he sees as their bad behaviour.

It must not be forgotten that WW started his career as flight crew and therefore has a good insight into the world of flying staff and he was also a union representative when he was an Aer Lingus pilot. He has far more understanding and has far more determination than any previous BA CEOs.

[BentleyH]

Miss M,

From what I understand is that the judge could have ruled differently if the situation had been different.

That just about sums it up really....It could have been different had it been different?????

Also glad to see the old 'thin end of the wedge' argument coming up again. BA will not need to impose further change on Cabin Crew providing their future representatives operate in a sensible and realistic fashion. We could all argue we might get something imposed on us in the future, so based on that logic, we should all be out on strike right now. That argument just doesn't wash, but sadly, it remains the cornerstone of all the BASSA propaganda.

[Litebulbs]

M.Mouse

So Mr Walsh is a punisher then. The crew have been on strike and need to be pulled to task, regardless of the future of industrial relations.

The crew before the IA will be the crew when a conclusion is reached. Therefore, an acceptable resolution needs to be found and with an outcome that does not carry resentment with it.

That is how I see it, but maybe you want to see a particular group removed?

[BentleyH]

Litebulbs,

The problem is WW will not allow BASSA to achieve anything over and above his offer through the way they have behaved. I don't think it's about punishing the crew, its about saying, making threats and damaging our company in the way BASSA have, will not result in them getting their way.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by BentleyH

Litebulbs,

The problem is WW will not allow BASSA to achieve anything over and above his offer through the way they have behaved. I don't think it's about punishing the crew, its about saying, making threats and damaging our company in the way BASSA have, will not result in them getting their way.

So now he is not negotiating?

[midman]

Originally Posted by Litebulbs

Midman,

There were hundreds of cancellations over the 7 days of action. The most conservative estimate of cost, was around £40 million pounds.

The BA management team pulled out all the stops, to minimise the disruption.

I believe both parties are talking.

£40m would be a fair price to pay to emasculate a malevolent influence in its operations.

Of course BA pulled out all the stops to minimise the disruption. Wouldn't everyone?

Both parties have been talking for over a year. There will be no resolution of the primary issues. Bassa will be left hanging by Unite.

[Litebulbs]

Midman,

I wish I could write off £40 million just like that.

[M.Mouse]

WW is not out to punish anybody, equally he is not going to reward behaviour which he sees as unreasonable and damaging.

£40m is a mere flash in the pan and, as has been stated many times, will ultimately be recouped many times over. Initially by further degradation of what Unite/BASSA have to accept and long term by the continuing savings made by bringing CC agreements into line with what the aviation industry now demands if a company wishes to stay afloat.

I do not see WW rushing to negotiate anything. Unite/BASSA called the strike, did damage and have effectively dug one very deep hole. It cannot possibly have escaped the notice of even the most ardent pro-strike supporter that WW holds all the cards whether one wishes it was so or not.

[MissM]

nurjio

MissM, do you believe BASSA to be the panacea?
..and in your last post you refer to 'we'. Who is 'we'?

No, I don't. We? The majority of us members.

[Litebulbs]

Originally Posted by M.Mouse

I do not see WW rushing to negotiate anything. Unite/BASSA called the strike, did damage and have effectively dug one very deep hole. It cannot possibly have escaped the notice of even the most ardent pro-strike supporter that WW holds all the cards whether one wishes it was so or not.

You will probably not see too many crew rushing to change their T&C's either, as they did not bring this to the table. WW wants change, not the crew. So if nothing changes then that will be a positive outcome for BASSA, I would imagine.

[MissM]

Tiramisu

In what way was BA's original proposal fair? WW has clearly shown how much he values our agreements by completely ignoring them. Do you think any of their proposals would protect existing crew? Sign any of their proposals, sit down and wait a year or two when they will be coming back for more.

It is not incorrect that many of our long-range trips were crewed fully with regular cabin crew and less lucrative trips as JFK and BOM left LHR with minimum crew. Selfish thinking for the moment but not worrying about the long-term consequences of their actions. Non-striking crew and volunteer crew have done nothing but prolonging this dispute. If you hadn't reported for duty, or agreed to train to become cabin crew, our management would have been forced to negotiate because there wouldn't have been any crew available.

[MissM]

MrMe

To be honest carrots are considered good. It is the sticks you want to look out for!

Not when BA management is offering them!

I can't believe crew who trust WW and BF when they say that they will protect existing crew. Do they really believe it?

[MissM]

Hi Miss M

Good to see you on the 'other side'. As you know I like to live on both sides of the debate.

Where do you think this thing is going, do you think the talks will make a difference? Is there a possibility that the UNITE negotiators will offer a solution that is unacceptable to the BASSA reps? What type of negotiated settlement do you think would get the thumbs up from UNITE's members?

OG

Hi OG

I don't know where this is going or if the talks will make any difference. BA and UNITE are far away from each other with apparent different views of the situation. Both sides are strong-minded and wanting to be the winner by offering the final proposal, not the other way around.

We need complete protection from New Fleet and have a say as to which routes should go and stay. It should be done fairly but unfortunately as soon as New Fleet is introduced it will only be a matter of time before mainline disappears completely. I have another 30 years before retirement and I don't see my fleet lasting for that long. The best possible solution would be future crew working alongside existing crew but apparently it's not possible any longer.

A settlement doesn't necessary have to include reinstatement of staff travel as I knew exactly of the consequences involved of participating in a strike. It doesn't either have to include reinstatement of suspended crew. I have never agreed with crew working during a strike but I would never pass around any lists including their names or devote myself to any name calling. Suspended crew put themselves in this situation and will have to deal with it accordingly. However, many crew will be insisting on both of these issues or else they will vote against the proposal.

[triple x]

A settlement doesn't necessary have to include reinstatement of staff travel as I knew exactly of the consequences involved of participating in a strike.

that is what i think u r wrong.
Any settlement will have to include reinstatement of staff travel.
Unfortunately for me all strike dates did fall on days off but I was at the picket line for the 7 days along side people who were not on days off. I will not accept any settlement if staff travel is not reinstated or those who lost it.

[Tiramisu]

Tiramisu
In what way was BA's original proposal fair? WW has clearly shown how much he values our agreements by completely ignoring them. Do you think any of their proposals would protect existing crew? Sign any of their proposals, sit down and wait a year or two when they will be coming back for more.

Miss M
Working with 1 crew member less on most flights after reducing the onboard product seemed reasonable. On Eurofleet as a CSD, without a Purser on a 757/767 is manageable and has caused little hardship even with high Club loads on band 4 flights.
It was BASSA’s idea that we work till 10pm on our last day, work an extra day a month and take a pay cut.
BA in the meantime, proposed a pay freeze, which was acceptable to many of us.
As far as I’m aware Bill Francis was prepared to re-instate the Purser on some flights. The Monthly Travel payment which did not include our allowances was also rejected by the TUs. We were offered a fair share of trips and no one would have been forced to move to New Fleet.
All this was negotiable including New Fleet. Our Ts and Cs were protected plus we were offered a bonus!
We could have had this in writing as part of our contract but it’s all too late.

Do I trust BA? Yes I do, they have been straight all the way. There isn't a single thing that BA has done to date that has come as a surprise. The writing’s been on the wall and it’s a shame we failed to read it. Sadly now, we have all lost out on a very fair and reasonable deal. Let’s hope we'll have the opportunity to ballot on what’s left before we lose that too

PS: Miss M and Triple X, welcome to Prune, it's good to have your side of the debate.

I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my personal views.

[Stelton]

There is a simple reason to why crew have very little faith in management - they have been poorly managed by BA in the past. This is something which needs to be addressed ASAP and BA have to put a lot of effort in gaining their faith again.

A new CEO won't change anything - not even if Mother Teresa was alive and made CEO of BA.

[Stelton]

On Eurofleet as a CSD, without a Purser on a 757/767 is manageable and has caused little hardship even with high Club loads on band 4 flights. It was BASSA’s idea that we work till 10pm on our last day, work an extra day a month and take a pay cut.

BA in the meantime, proposed a pay freeze, which was acceptable to many of us.

As far as I’m aware Bill Francis was prepared to re-instate the Purser on some flights.

Interesting. Didn't BASSA suggest in one of their initial proposals last year that the Purser on 757 and 767 respectively should be replaced with a main crew member?

BA accepted a pay freeze - as offered by BASSA yet it's one of their 18 reasons to take industrial action because it was imposed on crew.

184 crew is apparently not enough for BASSA. They want to set the numbers and if you multiply 184 times five you are probably getting close to how many crew they want returned. I do think that our wide-bodied aircraft should have both a CSD and a Purser - not only for service purposes.

But, what do I know? I'm just a SFO!

[411A]

It seems clear that BA management have the upper hand with this dispute.
The flying public know this, the financial big boys know this, the shareholders likewise, so...it really is time for the errant CC to come to their collective senses, and settle.
Will they,I wonder?

My bet would be...no.
It therefore seems reasonable for the airline to start training replacements, that is...if they haven't started already.