British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can only give an opinion, not an answer. I have never seen the recognition agreement, so I do not know what can be done. I would guess, that it is Unite that hold the agreement with BA, not a branch.
I imagine that BASSA have had included, an agreement that any change to terms and conditions would have to go to a ballot. In some agreements, it would be ok for an officer of the union to sign the deal without acceptance of the membership.
To become an independent union, you would have to go through the same process that the PCCC are trying to do, but as I understand it, as there is a current recognition agreement in place, then BA would have to offer a voluntary deal and there may be a single union clause already contained in the agreement, closing off this path too. I don't think that they would be doing that in the near future, do you?!
I would think that there would be a 90 day notice clause to terminate the current recognition agreement, but why would Unite want to do that? BASSA would be taking a huge gamble too, if you believe the things that have been said on this thread. But I imagine they will know exactly how many members they currently have now (after the December court ruling), so as long as it is a healthy 50%+, then maybe BASSA will force it. But you would be mad to do this when you are currently in dispute, because you would effectively be non unionised.
Sorry if it is a bit disjointed, as they are just thoughts that are coming out, so feel free to rip them to shreds (politely though please
)
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: in a house
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On my last visit, with the several picket points fully manned, 300+ on coaches to TUC HQ, the place was still packed inside and out, and with a constant turnover of crew all day I stand by my calculations.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 35,000 ft
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clarified,
Just to expand on what Litebulbs has said, I would assume it is nigh on impossible for BASSA to become independant again, for the simple fact that the members of both BASSA and AMICUS voted for the merger into Unite a few years ago. A re-ballot of the members would undoubtedly be required.
With regard to the formation of the Professional Cabin Crew Council, BA can, if we request it, offer voluntary recognition or, if we gain more than 40% of the workforce, then BA have to recognise us.
Alternatively, BA can ballot the entire workforce to see if the majority still support Unite. This could be what is referred to in the last offer regarding the deadline of June 18th.
I agree, and have stated on here a long time ago, that this Union has past its sell-by date now. People do not need, or by all accounts want, a Union that is going to call 'Strike' at every request the employer makes. A council that collaborates and negotiates with the employer, is far more likely to achieve things for its members, than a Union that says no. You only have to look at where we are today for the evidence of this: What have Unite achieved so far? Nothing. Yet look at the upheaval that we have gone through, and are still going through, to get here. It is appalling that Unite have put us through all this pain for no gain whatsoever. In fact, they have lost deals for us, and we won't get those back now and that is rather shameful.
Additionally, UK Employment Law is very comprehensive now, and is designed in such a way that an employee can easily challenge an employer, without the need for complicated and costly legal assistance. That is not to say that BA won't try and pull a fast one (or two!), but the way Employment Law is set up is very straightforward, and thus makes it reasonably straightforward to challenge. Today, with the benefit of UK Employment Law, the internet, and a modern day society, the days of an outdated Union that was designed for mill and factory workers working in appalling conditions, are definitely numbered.
A progressive and modern council, that is all-inclusive of the members it represents, is likely to achieve a much-better, and more productive working environment. Moreover, because it contributes directly to the success of the business, it will undoubtedly gain more benefits for the members, and a better employer-employee relationship.
Many other companies have them - Orange, Sky, Honda to name a few. It's time we moved into the modern world, and conducted our business accordingly. The sooner we can convince the majority of crew that they can contribute to the success of our company by having a voice, the better off we will all be. It simply doesn't have to be this way, and that is the change the Professional Cabin Crew Council is trying to bring about.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
Just to expand on what Litebulbs has said, I would assume it is nigh on impossible for BASSA to become independant again, for the simple fact that the members of both BASSA and AMICUS voted for the merger into Unite a few years ago. A re-ballot of the members would undoubtedly be required.
With regard to the formation of the Professional Cabin Crew Council, BA can, if we request it, offer voluntary recognition or, if we gain more than 40% of the workforce, then BA have to recognise us.
Alternatively, BA can ballot the entire workforce to see if the majority still support Unite. This could be what is referred to in the last offer regarding the deadline of June 18th.
I agree, and have stated on here a long time ago, that this Union has past its sell-by date now. People do not need, or by all accounts want, a Union that is going to call 'Strike' at every request the employer makes. A council that collaborates and negotiates with the employer, is far more likely to achieve things for its members, than a Union that says no. You only have to look at where we are today for the evidence of this: What have Unite achieved so far? Nothing. Yet look at the upheaval that we have gone through, and are still going through, to get here. It is appalling that Unite have put us through all this pain for no gain whatsoever. In fact, they have lost deals for us, and we won't get those back now and that is rather shameful.
Additionally, UK Employment Law is very comprehensive now, and is designed in such a way that an employee can easily challenge an employer, without the need for complicated and costly legal assistance. That is not to say that BA won't try and pull a fast one (or two!), but the way Employment Law is set up is very straightforward, and thus makes it reasonably straightforward to challenge. Today, with the benefit of UK Employment Law, the internet, and a modern day society, the days of an outdated Union that was designed for mill and factory workers working in appalling conditions, are definitely numbered.
A progressive and modern council, that is all-inclusive of the members it represents, is likely to achieve a much-better, and more productive working environment. Moreover, because it contributes directly to the success of the business, it will undoubtedly gain more benefits for the members, and a better employer-employee relationship.
Many other companies have them - Orange, Sky, Honda to name a few. It's time we moved into the modern world, and conducted our business accordingly. The sooner we can convince the majority of crew that they can contribute to the success of our company by having a voice, the better off we will all be. It simply doesn't have to be this way, and that is the change the Professional Cabin Crew Council is trying to bring about.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 8th Apr 2010 at 19:43.
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: reading
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HiFlyer14.
I do hope and am sure most (99.9%) of BA hope you get your 40% PDQ.
I have never known a union branch disassiociate themselves from so many union members of the SAME union. They (BASSA) have been the catalyst of so many union members of UNITE at LHR cancelling TU membership en masse over the last few months as has happened.
The reason, as I am sure you are aware it's a new world and every other section / dept in BA has taken cuts, some severe to help BA stay alive and return the company where we need to be. Unfortunally, BASSA reps have not been in tune with everyone else.
I do hope and am sure most (99.9%) of BA hope you get your 40% PDQ.
I have never known a union branch disassiociate themselves from so many union members of the SAME union. They (BASSA) have been the catalyst of so many union members of UNITE at LHR cancelling TU membership en masse over the last few months as has happened.
The reason, as I am sure you are aware it's a new world and every other section / dept in BA has taken cuts, some severe to help BA stay alive and return the company where we need to be. Unfortunally, BASSA reps have not been in tune with everyone else.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as I understand, I question this comment, due to the fact that Unite has a collective bargaining agreement. Please feel free to correct me, if I am in error, unless you are talking about recognition of new fleet in a new bargaining group.
Last edited by Litebulbs; 8th Apr 2010 at 20:44.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whether or not we like or fully trust UNITE is not really the issue right now - the time for Spanish Inquisitions is not during a dispute.
I don’t think your BASSA reps have let you down so far; right from the first day WE exposed Columbus to you all, we have been consistent and delivered industrial action very much against the odds (the media, the governemt and the judiciary are all formidable opponents), so please bear with us.
The result of war is always the negotiations that you should have had beforehand!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: England
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HighFlyer14
I agree, and have stated on here a long time ago, that this Union has past its sell-by date now. People do not need, or by all accounts want, a Union that is going to call 'Strike' at every request the employer makes. A council that collaborates and negotiates with the employer, is far more likely to achieve things for its members, than a Union that says no.
What I have said, many times, is there are other models for union engagement that could benefit the employees/employer.
I really like your use of the word 'collaborate'.
I do think this should be embedded in the heart of modern employee relations. There are so many other business trying to take our customers, out do us and be bigger and better. We really don't need internal disputes/fights. Right now this all seems a distant dream, an aspiration.
I do hope that some good will come from this, relationships change and the exploration of the benefits of a more collaborative approach.
We'll see!
My view on a previous post, not my employers or any other party.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 35,000 ft
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Litebulbs,
Obviously I am not privy to the details of the contract between BA and Unite, but the regulations governing Information and Consultation state:
The link is here:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employeeinformationandconsultation/DG_177468
Obviously I am not privy to the details of the contract between BA and Unite, but the regulations governing Information and Consultation state:
Changing pre-existing arrangements
If the employees at your workplace are not happy with the existing arrangements, you can ask for new arrangements to be introduced. If 40 per cent of employees ask (in writing) for new arrangements, they must be brought in.
If 10 per cent ask, your employer may hold a staff ballot. If less than 40 per cent of employees, or a minority of those voting, vote in favour of the new arrangements, it's likely the existing arrangements will stay in place.
If the employees at your workplace are not happy with the existing arrangements, you can ask for new arrangements to be introduced. If 40 per cent of employees ask (in writing) for new arrangements, they must be brought in.
If 10 per cent ask, your employer may hold a staff ballot. If less than 40 per cent of employees, or a minority of those voting, vote in favour of the new arrangements, it's likely the existing arrangements will stay in place.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employeeinformationandconsultation/DG_177468
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 35,000 ft
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Litebulbs
The Professional Cabin Crew Council will be whatever the cabin crew community want us to be. Whether that is going down the route of the Central Arbitration Committee to get collective bargaining rights, or under the I&C regulations, remains to be seen.
The important thing right now is that cabin crew are starting to realise that what BASSA/Unite has done to us is appalling.
Here are just some of the FACTS:
-Unite have misrepresented people by telling them they would not lose staff travel if on strike. They have lost it, and it is going to require a lot of legal wrangling to get it back, if at all.
-Unite have lost beneficial deals for us by rejecting offers on shares, bonuses, and free tickets.
-Unite have gained a poorer MTP rate than was originally offered.
-Unite have pushed the offer from a 3 yr to a 4yr pay deal, reducing our future negotiating rights.
-Unite are putting 1000 jobs at risk, as specified on the HR1.
The list of misdemeanors is quite astounding, and it has to stop. As a Unite rep, looking at this objectively, I sincerely ask you - can you name one POSITIVE thing, that Unite has achieved for BA cabin crew over the last 18 months? They have achieved nothing, yet they continue to shout "Strike".
The Professional Cabin Crew Council is, during this crisis, simply the voice of our community saying "Enough is enough". When the time is right, the community itself will decide exactly how that voice will take shape.
The Professional Cabin Crew Council will be whatever the cabin crew community want us to be. Whether that is going down the route of the Central Arbitration Committee to get collective bargaining rights, or under the I&C regulations, remains to be seen.
The important thing right now is that cabin crew are starting to realise that what BASSA/Unite has done to us is appalling.
Here are just some of the FACTS:
-Unite have misrepresented people by telling them they would not lose staff travel if on strike. They have lost it, and it is going to require a lot of legal wrangling to get it back, if at all.
-Unite have lost beneficial deals for us by rejecting offers on shares, bonuses, and free tickets.
-Unite have gained a poorer MTP rate than was originally offered.
-Unite have pushed the offer from a 3 yr to a 4yr pay deal, reducing our future negotiating rights.
-Unite are putting 1000 jobs at risk, as specified on the HR1.
The list of misdemeanors is quite astounding, and it has to stop. As a Unite rep, looking at this objectively, I sincerely ask you - can you name one POSITIVE thing, that Unite has achieved for BA cabin crew over the last 18 months? They have achieved nothing, yet they continue to shout "Strike".
The Professional Cabin Crew Council is, during this crisis, simply the voice of our community saying "Enough is enough". When the time is right, the community itself will decide exactly how that voice will take shape.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to clarify, I have never said 'this Union is past it's sell by date'.
In fact i agree with all of HiFlyers post a couple above. its time for employee representation - one that negotiates and collaborates for the benefit of their entire membership (inevitably some will win and some will lose in such a varied and large group). Most importantly, this 'council' must work WITH the company in order to get win-win results.
Out of interest HF, what steps are you taking to get recognition from BA ?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Change Management
I think the Professional Cabin Crew Council are going to have to have a more compelling recruitment slogan than 'Come to us 'cos the others are rubbish'. You undoubtedly have a strong case for why BASSA is functionally defunct but BASSA has kept crew in the dark and [well] fed on spin for a long time.
Any replacement to BASSA is going to have un-indoctrinate CC on how and why they arrived here. Crew also need to be shown how a future Union-Company relationship could be modeled, ideally drawing on best-practise models that exist outside of BA or even Aviation per se. For example, UK Japanese Car Factories have amazing IR relations which are mutually beneficial and unthinkable in the 1970s. The old model of 'down tools and call the Union' needs to extricated from everyone's psyche if things are to improve.
Good luck, it's an awesome challenge but one that needs to be attempted. Possibly the tipping point hasn't been reached yet as we haven't seen the last breath from BASSA just yet.
Any replacement to BASSA is going to have un-indoctrinate CC on how and why they arrived here. Crew also need to be shown how a future Union-Company relationship could be modeled, ideally drawing on best-practise models that exist outside of BA or even Aviation per se. For example, UK Japanese Car Factories have amazing IR relations which are mutually beneficial and unthinkable in the 1970s. The old model of 'down tools and call the Union' needs to extricated from everyone's psyche if things are to improve.
Good luck, it's an awesome challenge but one that needs to be attempted. Possibly the tipping point hasn't been reached yet as we haven't seen the last breath from BASSA just yet.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also think the PCCC are going to have to have leaders prepared to put their name out there if they are going to earn any real respect or recognition.
Leading a union or employee group is hard work - if it's too scary to even announce who is behind such a new group I fear its future is set to be short and bleak.
I say this with absolute respect for what you appear to be planning to do.
Leading a union or employee group is hard work - if it's too scary to even announce who is behind such a new group I fear its future is set to be short and bleak.
I say this with absolute respect for what you appear to be planning to do.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The distance travelled so far...
Mind you, if we're talking about problems with how to publicize, launch and communicate the presence of the PCCC it shows how far you guys have come in just a few weeks! 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 1,980
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Professional Cabin Crew Council will be whatever the cabin crew community want us to be. Whether that is going down the route of the Central Arbitration Committee to get collective bargaining rights, or under the I&C regulations, remains to be seen.
The first part of your point may take a very long time to achieve. You have your numbers that have shown an interest in the PCCC, so they will speak for themselves. If you achieve 6250+1, then so be it. You understand that is only your first hurdle though, as the CAC will reject any application, where a collective agreement already exists. The second step would seem more logical, but consolation is not negotiation, but as has been also stated, you have come a long way in a short space of time.
The important thing right now is that cabin crew are starting to realise that what BASSA/Unite has done to us is appalling.
Here are just some of the FACTS:
-Unite have misrepresented people by telling them they would not lose staff travel if on strike. They have lost it, and it is going to require a lot of legal wrangling to get it back, if at all.
This is now a legal point, but may come into a negotiated settlement, but as it stands, I cannot disagree.
-Unite have lost beneficial deals for us by rejecting offers on shares, bonuses, and free tickets.
-Unite have gained a poorer MTP rate than was originally offered.
-Unite have pushed the offer from a 3 yr to a 4yr pay deal, reducing our future negotiating rights.
-Unite are putting 1000 jobs at risk, as specified on the HR1.
Unite is trying to protect current T&C's. Some may see shares, tickets and bonuses as a benefit, some will want to maintain where they are.
I do not know what MTP is, so I accept your statement is correct.
I would accept a 10 year deal, if the numbers were right. It is Unite that allow employees the facility to negotiate. If that facility is not there, then you get what you are given
BA submitted the HR1, not Unite. I ask one question on this. If all agreements were removed and a LoCo model was imposed, how many more jobs would be at risk?
The list of misdemeanors is quite astounding, and it has to stop. As a Unite rep, looking at this objectively, I sincerely ask you - can you name one POSITIVE thing, that Unite has achieved for BA cabin crew over the last 18 months? They have achieved nothing, yet they continue to shout "Strike".
Now, objectively, what you are trying to do is outstanding. To have the courage to fight for what you believe in and put the effort you have in, shows that you are a credit to the people who are following you. Just be careful of what big business can do. You feel let down by Unite and I hope they are learning. But you also have to remember, there is a huge number of your colleagues that probably strongly oppose you too.
The Professional Cabin Crew Council is, during this crisis, simply the voice of our community saying "Enough is enough". When the time is right, the community itself will decide exactly how that voice will take shape.
You are a voice, but it is the size of that voice that will decide how effective you are
The first part of your point may take a very long time to achieve. You have your numbers that have shown an interest in the PCCC, so they will speak for themselves. If you achieve 6250+1, then so be it. You understand that is only your first hurdle though, as the CAC will reject any application, where a collective agreement already exists. The second step would seem more logical, but consolation is not negotiation, but as has been also stated, you have come a long way in a short space of time.
The important thing right now is that cabin crew are starting to realise that what BASSA/Unite has done to us is appalling.
Here are just some of the FACTS:
-Unite have misrepresented people by telling them they would not lose staff travel if on strike. They have lost it, and it is going to require a lot of legal wrangling to get it back, if at all.
This is now a legal point, but may come into a negotiated settlement, but as it stands, I cannot disagree.
-Unite have lost beneficial deals for us by rejecting offers on shares, bonuses, and free tickets.
-Unite have gained a poorer MTP rate than was originally offered.
-Unite have pushed the offer from a 3 yr to a 4yr pay deal, reducing our future negotiating rights.
-Unite are putting 1000 jobs at risk, as specified on the HR1.
Unite is trying to protect current T&C's. Some may see shares, tickets and bonuses as a benefit, some will want to maintain where they are.
I do not know what MTP is, so I accept your statement is correct.
I would accept a 10 year deal, if the numbers were right. It is Unite that allow employees the facility to negotiate. If that facility is not there, then you get what you are given
BA submitted the HR1, not Unite. I ask one question on this. If all agreements were removed and a LoCo model was imposed, how many more jobs would be at risk?
The list of misdemeanors is quite astounding, and it has to stop. As a Unite rep, looking at this objectively, I sincerely ask you - can you name one POSITIVE thing, that Unite has achieved for BA cabin crew over the last 18 months? They have achieved nothing, yet they continue to shout "Strike".
Now, objectively, what you are trying to do is outstanding. To have the courage to fight for what you believe in and put the effort you have in, shows that you are a credit to the people who are following you. Just be careful of what big business can do. You feel let down by Unite and I hope they are learning. But you also have to remember, there is a huge number of your colleagues that probably strongly oppose you too.
The Professional Cabin Crew Council is, during this crisis, simply the voice of our community saying "Enough is enough". When the time is right, the community itself will decide exactly how that voice will take shape.
You are a voice, but it is the size of that voice that will decide how effective you are
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: England
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Arthur, Demo, Eddy........
I think it's very important to show respect to all sides here.
I am not a supporter of traditional unionism, never have been, never will be.
However, I do believe that what ever your persuasion, you should be respected.
Some of the events over the last 14 months have made me despair
I think my posts, have supported this.
I have given my views about how the future could look. Who knows, there may be people involved in this dispute who would share them?
I think a lot of our colleagues would be open to a different approach in doing things.
That is only achieved by being inclusive, it's very easy to get drawn into spats and highly charged debate but that won't help any of us moving forward.
Higherflyer14, used a great word to describe a future partnership with the company, 'collaborative'.
I think that can be achieved but would probably need radical change.
Some would find this whole concept totally weird, alien and wrong.
I and hope many more, would find it liberating.
I am not a supporter of traditional unionism, never have been, never will be.
However, I do believe that what ever your persuasion, you should be respected.
Some of the events over the last 14 months have made me despair
I think my posts, have supported this.
I have given my views about how the future could look. Who knows, there may be people involved in this dispute who would share them?
I think a lot of our colleagues would be open to a different approach in doing things.
That is only achieved by being inclusive, it's very easy to get drawn into spats and highly charged debate but that won't help any of us moving forward.
Higherflyer14, used a great word to describe a future partnership with the company, 'collaborative'.
I think that can be achieved but would probably need radical change.
Some would find this whole concept totally weird, alien and wrong.
I and hope many more, would find it liberating.
Last edited by Clarified; 9th Apr 2010 at 19:53.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: oxford
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your not singing anymore
"Hmmm with only up to 12 per picket line" (eeeseesehehdhhs)
That is the maximum allowed by law, I do believe.
All this talk of Union independancy, etc, etc is more for the courts and being a poor Cabin Crew(ee)(er) I don't want to get my head around all this convoluted legislation.
We all know the reaon why Unite has gone quiet, and I'm pretty sure its not to do with any important discussions. A deal was done to keep UNite quiet until after 6th May and Cabin CRew have been sold down the river...
However - back to my old cause - Staff Travel. For all those saying WW shouldn't give them back... maybe the thought of no future upgrades will make them change their minds.... which would you prefer - 10 hours down the back or 10 hours in club? I know which I prefer, well you can be pretty sure that ain't gonna happen no more. So thank Willie for that.
Reminds me of the end of Godfather 2.
Running a big business is much like running a country, you can either be a dictator or you can be a respected leader.
That is the maximum allowed by law, I do believe.
All this talk of Union independancy, etc, etc is more for the courts and being a poor Cabin Crew(ee)(er) I don't want to get my head around all this convoluted legislation.
We all know the reaon why Unite has gone quiet, and I'm pretty sure its not to do with any important discussions. A deal was done to keep UNite quiet until after 6th May and Cabin CRew have been sold down the river...
However - back to my old cause - Staff Travel. For all those saying WW shouldn't give them back... maybe the thought of no future upgrades will make them change their minds.... which would you prefer - 10 hours down the back or 10 hours in club? I know which I prefer, well you can be pretty sure that ain't gonna happen no more. So thank Willie for that.
Reminds me of the end of Godfather 2.
Running a big business is much like running a country, you can either be a dictator or you can be a respected leader.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
maybe the thought of no future upgrades will make them change their minds....
