British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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Unfortunately seen it in practice- literally!
There are still many 'Wake me up over Windsor' CSDs out there who are clinging to those restrictive working practices drawn up in the 1967 BOAC Scheduling Agreement.
The purser was beside herself trying to cover the work and the fact that it was happening. Poor woman. Not sure what the rest of the F passengers made of it.
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BA ATW
Can I seriously suggest that in such a case you have a quiet word with one of the pilots on board. I can assure you that she would not remain there for long. Don't worry about be found out as the person who dobbed them in, a quiet word on the interphone will have the desired effect with no recriminations. The CSD by any such action has broken several rules and will be bricking it very quickly and likely be on a disciplinary.
I have LITERALLY seen this..much to my chagrin. On the way back from SIN, CSD stood in the doorway greeting, but as soon as the aircraft was in the air, she came into the F cabin, took off her shoes, wrapped herself in a Blanket, fully uniformed and curled up in 5A! Remained there until lights out, then put out the bed, and got under the duvet. Stayed there until seat belt sign for landing came on, then got up and strapped into crew seat!
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After all the will they, wont they, it looks like we will actually find out just how bad it will be and for whom today after all.
Attempting to keep the thread on track as I can feel a looong discussion about a sleeping CSD bearing down on us all...!
Unite spokeswoman Pauline Doyle said the union will make a statement “later today.”
What will take BA forward??
Just as a slight change from recent posts, I would be interested in what will take BA forward once all the current ER stuff is sorted.
Clearly BA CC need "managers" that they trust. The BA Top team would have hoped that CSDs were such managers, but many of the current crop of CSDs appear to be shop stewards rather than managers. (I wrote many - not "all").
The Flight deck don't have the time to be managers of each group of CC that they fly with, and many in the flight deck do not have the inclination. I will refrain from any comments about their managerial ability.
Thus, how do BA top team develop quickly some more trusted/trustworthy managers to ensure that CC are reasonably managed in future? The CSD types who post on here with balanced common sense can't cover the whole fleet! BA can't afford another layer of managers over the CSDs. An urgent, creative solution is required..........
Clearly BA CC need "managers" that they trust. The BA Top team would have hoped that CSDs were such managers, but many of the current crop of CSDs appear to be shop stewards rather than managers. (I wrote many - not "all").
The Flight deck don't have the time to be managers of each group of CC that they fly with, and many in the flight deck do not have the inclination. I will refrain from any comments about their managerial ability.
Thus, how do BA top team develop quickly some more trusted/trustworthy managers to ensure that CC are reasonably managed in future? The CSD types who post on here with balanced common sense can't cover the whole fleet! BA can't afford another layer of managers over the CSDs. An urgent, creative solution is required..........
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Diplome
No, I had not done so. I had merely mentioned that the claim by a passenger that BA's service was second only to SQ could hardly be taken seriously.
Since I have heard so much about BA's crew being the best in the sky (mostly by BASSA) I felt we needed a little perspective. They are good, but not in the top 10.
Since I have heard so much about BA's crew being the best in the sky (mostly by BASSA) I felt we needed a little perspective. They are good, but not in the top 10.
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Slightly "on track" but may end up on the editors floor
It would not be hard to change a few restrictive practices to achieve a more practical and efficient operation and one that benefits everybody.
I have just got this Flight Crew Report out of the archive and I think it demonstrates the point and sadly it is not an isolated incident and is probably still happening to this day.
BA177 (lunchtime) to JFK with full first, club and virtually full WT on a 744.
Cabin Crew on second half Back to Back
Lady CSD mentions to Capt on bus from Compass Centre that one crew member slightly under the weather but OK to operate.
STD-10, boarding/loading nearing completion, ATC slot for STD+21 so all is well.No, sadly not.
CSD comes to Flight Deck and says that crew member now unfit to operate.
Capt being good CRM chap asks CSD what she wants to do. Obvious first, transport for sick crew member back to Compass, bag from bulk cargo no problem as it is easily identifiable.
CSD outlines two options:
i). QRS to replace crew member, 45 mins minimum but more likely to be 1hr to the aircraft.
or
ii). Having spoken to Purser in sick crew members working cabin, CSD prepared to work position of sick crew member and service will operate on schedule with no inconvenience to passengers. QRS crew member could be pax out to JFK on later flight to cover inbound service to LHR if necessary.
All crew unanimous that the "work one down" option would be best for Pax, BA and actually crew as well because delayed JFK pax are not impressed pax.
Plan relayed to Ops and met with absolute refusal, wait for QRS.
Capt had audacity to query Ops decision and was informed that it was the industrial agreement and would not be violated, Dispatcher(TRM) contacted by Ops and told flight was not to dispatch until QRS arrived and Push Back crew were separately told to disconnect and go elsewhere.
Cabin Crew absolutely totally onside and wanted to do the right thing. Industrial agreement prevented the sensible solution and this does pose the question that crew and not their union should be able to manage the situation on the day.
I have just got this Flight Crew Report out of the archive and I think it demonstrates the point and sadly it is not an isolated incident and is probably still happening to this day.
BA177 (lunchtime) to JFK with full first, club and virtually full WT on a 744.
Cabin Crew on second half Back to Back
Lady CSD mentions to Capt on bus from Compass Centre that one crew member slightly under the weather but OK to operate.
STD-10, boarding/loading nearing completion, ATC slot for STD+21 so all is well.No, sadly not.
CSD comes to Flight Deck and says that crew member now unfit to operate.
Capt being good CRM chap asks CSD what she wants to do. Obvious first, transport for sick crew member back to Compass, bag from bulk cargo no problem as it is easily identifiable.
CSD outlines two options:
i). QRS to replace crew member, 45 mins minimum but more likely to be 1hr to the aircraft.
or
ii). Having spoken to Purser in sick crew members working cabin, CSD prepared to work position of sick crew member and service will operate on schedule with no inconvenience to passengers. QRS crew member could be pax out to JFK on later flight to cover inbound service to LHR if necessary.
All crew unanimous that the "work one down" option would be best for Pax, BA and actually crew as well because delayed JFK pax are not impressed pax.
Plan relayed to Ops and met with absolute refusal, wait for QRS.
Capt had audacity to query Ops decision and was informed that it was the industrial agreement and would not be violated, Dispatcher(TRM) contacted by Ops and told flight was not to dispatch until QRS arrived and Push Back crew were separately told to disconnect and go elsewhere.
Cabin Crew absolutely totally onside and wanted to do the right thing. Industrial agreement prevented the sensible solution and this does pose the question that crew and not their union should be able to manage the situation on the day.
Last edited by Rover90; 9th Mar 2010 at 12:09.
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Rover90
I believe that is an excellent example of how the staff really perceive their job if not brainwashed by their union. 
That is the spirit WW and BA Management need to address, nurture and grow. How they are supposed to do that with BASSA blocking all attempts is beyond me though...
That is the spirit WW and BA Management need to address, nurture and grow. How they are supposed to do that with BASSA blocking all attempts is beyond me though...
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Managing CSDs
Ancient Observer
What will take BA forward??
Clearly BA CC need "managers" that they trust. The BA Top team would have hoped that CSDs were such managers, but many of the current crop of CSDs appear to be shop stewards rather than managers. (I wrote many - not "all").
What will take BA forward??
Clearly BA CC need "managers" that they trust. The BA Top team would have hoped that CSDs were such managers, but many of the current crop of CSDs appear to be shop stewards rather than managers. (I wrote many - not "all").
'Keep an aeroplane strapped to your back' is the advice given to anyone brave enough to consider a career on the ground. Managers who have never flown as CC are dismissed as 'spies in the skies' no matter how hard they try to relate to issues raised by CC downroute.
This lack of trust is fear-based IMO, which is fed and nurtured by BASSA, Galley FM and 'back of the bus' cynicism.
Unfortunately, I don't have any idea how BA managers can get the CC to trust their managers. And will be even worse after the strike.......
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henkybaby:
Addressing the "drop in service" representations has always been a difficult one for me.
BASSA has used it and members have certainly repeated the argument.
I've always found BA's First service to be pleasant, nothing to avoid at all, but certainly not something that I book thinking "This is going to be fabulous."
However, I also understand that many BA Cabin Crew do work hard to make the flights as enjoyable as possible. I've sent letters to BA offices in the past personally complimenting a few individuals.
I was totally unaware of the belief held by some Cabin Crew members that they are absolutely the best out there and to be honest I put most of it aside as defensiveness over their pay structure.
BA is not a discount airline, far from it. What is frustrating is listening to BASSA messages where they feel entitled to determine the specific services and level of service the airline will provide in the future.
Those are management decisions.
Addressing the "drop in service" representations has always been a difficult one for me.
BASSA has used it and members have certainly repeated the argument.
I've always found BA's First service to be pleasant, nothing to avoid at all, but certainly not something that I book thinking "This is going to be fabulous."
However, I also understand that many BA Cabin Crew do work hard to make the flights as enjoyable as possible. I've sent letters to BA offices in the past personally complimenting a few individuals.
I was totally unaware of the belief held by some Cabin Crew members that they are absolutely the best out there and to be honest I put most of it aside as defensiveness over their pay structure.
BA is not a discount airline, far from it. What is frustrating is listening to BASSA messages where they feel entitled to determine the specific services and level of service the airline will provide in the future.
Those are management decisions.
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Rover90
If my memory is serving me correctly there was some testimony in the recent Court case about these sort of issues.
I believe the Judge was as fascinated and incredulous as many of us in the power of BASSA and its role over the day to day operations of BA.
Their obstruction over imposition during the recent weather difficulties, and the refusal to reasonably negotiate over the staffing imposition are perfect examples why Unions should honorably and enthusiastically represent their clients, but they should not be allowed to run the business.
Plan relayed to Ops and met with absolute refusal, wait for QRS.
Capt had audacity to query Ops decision and was informed that it was the industrial agreement and would not be violated, Dispatcher(TRM) contacted by Ops and told flight was not to dispatch until QRS arrived and Push Back crew were separately told to disconnect and go elsewhere.
Cabin Crew absolutely totally onside and wanted to do the right thing. Industrial agreement prevented the sensible solution and this does pose the question that crew and not their union should be able to manage the situation on the day.
Capt had audacity to query Ops decision and was informed that it was the industrial agreement and would not be violated, Dispatcher(TRM) contacted by Ops and told flight was not to dispatch until QRS arrived and Push Back crew were separately told to disconnect and go elsewhere.
Cabin Crew absolutely totally onside and wanted to do the right thing. Industrial agreement prevented the sensible solution and this does pose the question that crew and not their union should be able to manage the situation on the day.
I believe the Judge was as fascinated and incredulous as many of us in the power of BASSA and its role over the day to day operations of BA.
Their obstruction over imposition during the recent weather difficulties, and the refusal to reasonably negotiate over the staffing imposition are perfect examples why Unions should honorably and enthusiastically represent their clients, but they should not be allowed to run the business.
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For a balanced view...
and in the interests fo fairness having contributed to the debate on one side, I should also say, that the service that i received in F on the LON-SIN leg of the trip, was absolutely superlative.
The CSD was active, visible and talking to all the pax and in constant comms with her crew. The 2 crew members who particularly looked after me on board were polite and attentive and one of them was to the point of perfectionism in the actual food service. I wouldnt have been surprised to see him get out a ruler, to check the cutlery he laid out was straight and equidistant!
And yes, i did also make my thanks known both to the crew, the CSD and the compliments page when i rtb.
Cuts both ways! Unfotunately crew bashing, and specifically BA crew bashing is a popular sport at the mo.
The CSD was active, visible and talking to all the pax and in constant comms with her crew. The 2 crew members who particularly looked after me on board were polite and attentive and one of them was to the point of perfectionism in the actual food service. I wouldnt have been surprised to see him get out a ruler, to check the cutlery he laid out was straight and equidistant!
And yes, i did also make my thanks known both to the crew, the CSD and the compliments page when i rtb.
Cuts both ways! Unfotunately crew bashing, and specifically BA crew bashing is a popular sport at the mo.
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Part of the problem of having any faith in your immediate manager is your perception of whether he/she actually has the authority to sanction something if appropriate.
When the current crop of crew managers have dispensed their quota of performance managing to a less than impressed "team", there is precious little time left for dealing with the nitty gritty issues of being a lowly crew member.
How many times do you hear a genuine story of a crew member pondering whether to go to their crew manager to sort out an issue that requires a day off or change to a roster only to be advised by colleagues that it is not worth the effort, just go sick!
If you can convince your manager that you need something, anything, then he must have the ability to pick up the phone to the relevant dept and make it happen, no question, no matter what. Managers have to be able to manage effectively and to do that they need the tools to do the job.
When crew managers in BA can make informed executive decisions and action them, crew will use and trust them.
When the current crop of crew managers have dispensed their quota of performance managing to a less than impressed "team", there is precious little time left for dealing with the nitty gritty issues of being a lowly crew member.
How many times do you hear a genuine story of a crew member pondering whether to go to their crew manager to sort out an issue that requires a day off or change to a roster only to be advised by colleagues that it is not worth the effort, just go sick!
If you can convince your manager that you need something, anything, then he must have the ability to pick up the phone to the relevant dept and make it happen, no question, no matter what. Managers have to be able to manage effectively and to do that they need the tools to do the job.
When crew managers in BA can make informed executive decisions and action them, crew will use and trust them.
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I should also say, that the service that i received in F on the LON-SIN leg of the trip, was absolutely superlative.
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"I believe the Judge was as fascinated and incredulous as many of us in the power of BASSA and its role over the day to day operations of BA."
I Believe bassa should have no role in the day to day operations of BA; beggers belief really!
I Believe bassa should have no role in the day to day operations of BA; beggers belief really!
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Winch & Rover -
Over the years it seems many new agreements have been written between the company and the crew, via the unions. Over the years, times change, situations change, someone gets affected, discussions take place, then new rules come into force.
From what I have seen, there are many old (over 30 years) and sometimes unecessary rules and agreements causing a lot of restriction on the operation.
By trying to change these rules, some percentage of people are going to get upset, usually the ones it directly affects, sometimes just the more militant crew who feel they are losing out, even if it doesnt directly affect them.
Recent conversations i've had with crew would suggest that most are wiloling to be flexible but are told they cant be.
I was speaking to a hostie thast operates the european routes from LHR. She was scheduled to operate 8 sectors over three days, nightstopping in 2 european cities, On day two her inbound flight was delayed. Although the crew had plenty of time to make their next flight and stop for a break on the way, they were taken off the trip for the sake of ONE minute outside the agreement. Despite the company knowing they had landed, disembarked and were on their way tot he next flight, they recrewed the trip and sent the original crew home. All crew were willing to work on, but weren't allowed. Such a waste of man hours.
I believe on some very delayed flights before departure, all crew have to be in agreeance to work to maximum allowed hours. Yet if one person disagrees, they all go home. Surely it makes more sense to offload that one crew member and replace them?
Crew should surely be allowed to volunteer to be flexible? Most I know would want to stay on their schedule. Understandably the airline needs to have a contingency plan to avoid delayed departures. But thats what standbys are for and they surely dont need more than 60 minutes notice to get to an aircraft at T5? Surely a message can be sent to aircraft asking late arriving crew if they are willing to still operate the next sector?
Theres also apparantly a clause that if crew work a long day, they are entitled to longer rest. Thats fair. But if they go a minute into whats seen as a longer day, irrespective of how hard or easy their day has been, they can get 'knocked off' their next days duty, which means they may be rescheduled onto another flight or get the day off. Again, for the sake of minutes, most crew I know would happily stick with their original schedule.
I feel more productive scheduling, or allowing the crew to be flexible would really help the operation.
As for the unions - they are losing the backing of their members. Both sides are still in talks but they are both digging their heels in - probably caused by pride from old arguements too - and they have stopped listening to what the crew really want. Most want to compromise.
It seems both the union and the company want all or nothing. Sort it out!!!
Over the years it seems many new agreements have been written between the company and the crew, via the unions. Over the years, times change, situations change, someone gets affected, discussions take place, then new rules come into force.
From what I have seen, there are many old (over 30 years) and sometimes unecessary rules and agreements causing a lot of restriction on the operation.
By trying to change these rules, some percentage of people are going to get upset, usually the ones it directly affects, sometimes just the more militant crew who feel they are losing out, even if it doesnt directly affect them.
Recent conversations i've had with crew would suggest that most are wiloling to be flexible but are told they cant be.
I was speaking to a hostie thast operates the european routes from LHR. She was scheduled to operate 8 sectors over three days, nightstopping in 2 european cities, On day two her inbound flight was delayed. Although the crew had plenty of time to make their next flight and stop for a break on the way, they were taken off the trip for the sake of ONE minute outside the agreement. Despite the company knowing they had landed, disembarked and were on their way tot he next flight, they recrewed the trip and sent the original crew home. All crew were willing to work on, but weren't allowed. Such a waste of man hours.
I believe on some very delayed flights before departure, all crew have to be in agreeance to work to maximum allowed hours. Yet if one person disagrees, they all go home. Surely it makes more sense to offload that one crew member and replace them?
Crew should surely be allowed to volunteer to be flexible? Most I know would want to stay on their schedule. Understandably the airline needs to have a contingency plan to avoid delayed departures. But thats what standbys are for and they surely dont need more than 60 minutes notice to get to an aircraft at T5? Surely a message can be sent to aircraft asking late arriving crew if they are willing to still operate the next sector?
Theres also apparantly a clause that if crew work a long day, they are entitled to longer rest. Thats fair. But if they go a minute into whats seen as a longer day, irrespective of how hard or easy their day has been, they can get 'knocked off' their next days duty, which means they may be rescheduled onto another flight or get the day off. Again, for the sake of minutes, most crew I know would happily stick with their original schedule.
I feel more productive scheduling, or allowing the crew to be flexible would really help the operation.
As for the unions - they are losing the backing of their members. Both sides are still in talks but they are both digging their heels in - probably caused by pride from old arguements too - and they have stopped listening to what the crew really want. Most want to compromise.
It seems both the union and the company want all or nothing. Sort it out!!!
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I always find it so difficult to understand why the cabin crew community have so much faith and trust in BASSA.I do feel though if crew voted to strike that is exactly what they should do,to back track now and blame this all on BASSA is not good enough.BA sent all crew the facts and they have chosen to ignore them and follow BASSA.The same old drama will raise it's ugly head in the future if WW does not call their bluff . I wish they would bring on the strike, most crew will back track and come to work,then hopefully BASSA will loose all support from their membership and we can all move onwards and upwards without BASSA.
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agreement
For those of you not familiar here is the latest WW agreement ........ note ammended 16 dec 2008 so not that long ago really and agreed between BASSA CC89 and BA.
I guess the cabin crew will be asking has the situation changed soo much in less than 2 years time.
Maybe it has but the agreement shows how little change was asked for in previous years.
http://bassa.co.uk/BASSA/Downloads/A...ent16Dec08.pdf
I guess the cabin crew will be asking has the situation changed soo much in less than 2 years time.
Maybe it has but the agreement shows how little change was asked for in previous years.
http://bassa.co.uk/BASSA/Downloads/A...ent16Dec08.pdf
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