British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk VI
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I don't see that BA asking for an extension signifies much if anything, especially in the ultimate outcome.
Remember that BASSA were going to deliver their proposals to BA by end of Friday, but delayed because the numbers were wrong, handing the document to BA Monday (yesterday).
BA may well just be asking for time so that they can fully understand BASSA's proposal and fully quantify them, before calling the shots. They have only asked for a extension until tomorrow lunchtime, after all.
Can you imagine if BA had just cast a quick glance over them and said no - BASSA would have tried to claim that BA didn't understand them.
Remember that BASSA were going to deliver their proposals to BA by end of Friday, but delayed because the numbers were wrong, handing the document to BA Monday (yesterday).
BA may well just be asking for time so that they can fully understand BASSA's proposal and fully quantify them, before calling the shots. They have only asked for a extension until tomorrow lunchtime, after all.
Can you imagine if BA had just cast a quick glance over them and said no - BASSA would have tried to claim that BA didn't understand them.
the lunatic fringe
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It may be tosh, we shall see soon enough.
We have a Labour government who absolutely do not need a major strike this close to an election. Unite and Labour are very closely aligned, and they also will want the current Mr Brown re-elected. The forces ranged must be for all the parties to find a negotiated settlement. I am sure WW is being leaned on by the politicians to find that negotiated solution.
That final solution must allow all parties to claim a victory. So face can be saved all round. WW gets his savings, BASSA claim victory, and everyone smiles for the cameras.
This fiasco is being played out against a much larger political backdrop.
We have a Labour government who absolutely do not need a major strike this close to an election. Unite and Labour are very closely aligned, and they also will want the current Mr Brown re-elected. The forces ranged must be for all the parties to find a negotiated settlement. I am sure WW is being leaned on by the politicians to find that negotiated solution.
That final solution must allow all parties to claim a victory. So face can be saved all round. WW gets his savings, BASSA claim victory, and everyone smiles for the cameras.
This fiasco is being played out against a much larger political backdrop.
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L337 good effort, but, with respect you're wide of the mark. There is no political link whatsoever between BA and TCGB's regime. Therefore, any 'leaning' will be on one side, and one side only.
nurj
PS, and the 'leaning' will be along the lines of - "For goodness sake comrade Len, you've porked up this one big time - you've just blown any chance of the General Secretary post".
nurj
PS, and the 'leaning' will be along the lines of - "For goodness sake comrade Len, you've porked up this one big time - you've just blown any chance of the General Secretary post".
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Topbunk -Exactly my thoughts.
BA may well just be asking for time so that they can fully understand BASSA's proposal and fully quantify them, before calling the shots. They have only asked for a extension until tomorrow lunchtime, after all.
It would be negligent in the extreme for WW and his advisors to hurry through the analysis of the proposal.
1)For the sake of the company and the shareholder (and the staff!) he cant be seen to agree to something in a hurry that later proves to be a sows ear instead of the promised silk purse
2)For fairness to the CC, he cant be seen to reject something on the basis it will most likely be a sows ear, and later discover it was infact a silk purse (although that seems unlikely!)
3) He cant be seen by the media/unions/public/politicians to have not considered all the angles and given the proposal a fair hearing.
I just hope that before any union proposal gets accepted, the CC get full visibility of what BASSA has offered up on the gilt plated platter, and the opportunity to vote on whether they agree.
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There was a post a few pages back that suggested BASSA could call a "small strike" that would then extend the validity of the ballot and permit further action.
I would suspect that the uncertainty that would generate, especially in respect of forward bookings, would require WW to go nuclear. Whatever the rights and wrongs, this sad situation cannot be allowed to drag on.
I would suspect that the uncertainty that would generate, especially in respect of forward bookings, would require WW to go nuclear. Whatever the rights and wrongs, this sad situation cannot be allowed to drag on.
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Having said that ,on another forum the rumour is that the two parties are only £10 mill away from an aggreement hence the prolongation.
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L337.
"tcgb" is That C>nt Gordon Brown. A term of endearment popular on middleeast forums wrt to their managers. Stemming from the arrival of an ex Ba manager some years ago complete with nickname intact earned at BA which conveniently shared the acronym of a form of aircraft technology known as Traffic Collision Avoidance Sytem. This earstwhile tradition has deveolved into prfixing all peoples initials with TC. Which as you now now does not have the slightest to do with avoiding aeeroplanes
"tcgb" is That C>nt Gordon Brown. A term of endearment popular on middleeast forums wrt to their managers. Stemming from the arrival of an ex Ba manager some years ago complete with nickname intact earned at BA which conveniently shared the acronym of a form of aircraft technology known as Traffic Collision Avoidance Sytem. This earstwhile tradition has deveolved into prfixing all peoples initials with TC. Which as you now now does not have the slightest to do with avoiding aeeroplanes
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Remember this, any outcome needs to include the sterilisatiion of BASSA. Therefore, a straight 'money' - 'savings' solution is unlikely. I'm sure that when this debacle began all those months ago, Mr Walsh did not set out to destroy BASSA. What is clear now, is that the way BASSA has conducted itself, in public, leaves him no choice other than to secure a vasectomy.
nurj (All IMHO of course)
PS, thanks bin liner, great assist!
..and for MPN11 below, make that at least 3 decades.
nurj (All IMHO of course)
PS, thanks bin liner, great assist!
..and for MPN11 below, make that at least 3 decades.
Last edited by nurjio; 9th Mar 2010 at 17:11. Reason: To thank bin liner
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Originally Posted by papillon
You then need to conclude that everything else in the proposal is acceptable and you come up with a saving only £10 million short of the £60 million being bandied about - though what that does to the other £110 million that BA wanted from the start is beyond me.
Incidentally, "TCB" has been in common military usage for over a decade
But in the past it generally referred to the gentleman in the next-door property, now occupied by the present "TCB". Which is irrelevant: apologies to the Moderators.
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email from unite
``Deadline Day Statement 09th March 2010.
17:00 hrs.
Intensive talks held under the auspices of the TUC have been on going since January and have covered the following areas.
Cost savings target set by British Airways of £62 million p.a.
Return of crew complements.
A guarantee for current crew in respect of existing agreements, future/current routes and earnings.
Ongoing commitment to ops and choice that includes right of transfer.
Ongoing commitment for current crew to have access to promotion.
Introduction of a new mixed flying fleet at LHR (New Fleet).
To reach a resolution that both sides would be happy with, agreement would need to be reached on all of the above items.
This has not happened.
Although the current dispute is over imposition, a potential solution has had to encompass a broader number of issues and thus the talks have also covered these other areas.
Unite has submitted what we strongly believe to be a comprehensive and detailed proposal covering all of the above.
At 16:10 today, British Airways asked for an extension of the agreed TUC deadline until 5:00pm tomorrow, Wednesday 10th March 2010. As a genuine gesture of goodwill and to reaffirm our ongoing commitment to reach a solution, we have on your behalf agreed to this extension.
However we must stress, it would appear that at this stage it is also increasingly unlikely that an agreement will be reached.``
Of course we will have to wait to see exactly what Unite proposed if they ever release their proposals.
17:00 hrs.
Intensive talks held under the auspices of the TUC have been on going since January and have covered the following areas.
Cost savings target set by British Airways of £62 million p.a.
Return of crew complements.
A guarantee for current crew in respect of existing agreements, future/current routes and earnings.
Ongoing commitment to ops and choice that includes right of transfer.
Ongoing commitment for current crew to have access to promotion.
Introduction of a new mixed flying fleet at LHR (New Fleet).
To reach a resolution that both sides would be happy with, agreement would need to be reached on all of the above items.
This has not happened.
Although the current dispute is over imposition, a potential solution has had to encompass a broader number of issues and thus the talks have also covered these other areas.
Unite has submitted what we strongly believe to be a comprehensive and detailed proposal covering all of the above.
At 16:10 today, British Airways asked for an extension of the agreed TUC deadline until 5:00pm tomorrow, Wednesday 10th March 2010. As a genuine gesture of goodwill and to reaffirm our ongoing commitment to reach a solution, we have on your behalf agreed to this extension.
However we must stress, it would appear that at this stage it is also increasingly unlikely that an agreement will be reached.``
Of course we will have to wait to see exactly what Unite proposed if they ever release their proposals.
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Sorry, I'm confused more than ever.
This is called progress after "Intensive negotiations" and as a gesture of good will? Sorry, I'm still more confused than ever.
Cost savings target set by British Airways of £62 million p.a. When did that stop being something like £170M?
Return of crew complements.Reinstate the CC that are no longer employed, and who left voluntarily?
A guarantee for current crew in respect of existing agreements, future/current routes and earnings.These could be the agreements and earnings that are causing the financial problems in the first place?
Return of crew complements.Reinstate the CC that are no longer employed, and who left voluntarily?
A guarantee for current crew in respect of existing agreements, future/current routes and earnings.These could be the agreements and earnings that are causing the financial problems in the first place?
Last edited by MPN11; 9th Mar 2010 at 17:39. Reason: splungging
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Sorry, I'm confused more that ever.
Cost savings target set by British Airways of £62 million p.a. When did that stop being something like £170M?
Cost savings target set by British Airways of £62 million p.a. When did that stop being something like £170M?
Return of crew complements.Reinstate the CC that are no longer employed, and who left voluntarily?
A guarantee for current crew in respect of existing agreements, future/current routes and earnings.These could be the agreements and earnings that are causing the financial problems in the first place?
This is called progress after "Intensive negotiations" and as a gesture of good will? Sorry, I'm still more confused than ever.
Cost savings target set by British Airways of £62 million p.a. When did that stop being something like £170M?
Cost savings target set by British Airways of £62 million p.a. When did that stop being something like £170M?
Return of crew complements.Reinstate the CC that are no longer employed, and who left voluntarily?
A guarantee for current crew in respect of existing agreements, future/current routes and earnings.These could be the agreements and earnings that are causing the financial problems in the first place?
This is called progress after "Intensive negotiations" and as a gesture of good will? Sorry, I'm still more confused than ever.
The £60M saving is purely by operating one crew down. Thats the only place where £60M has been mentioned.
So VR + 1 crew down will probably combine to save approx £100M per year which i think is near enough to the figure BA was after.
I can see BA agreeing to allow a crew member back onboard on 'selected routes' if they can squeeze a pay-cut/freeze, New Fleet and a new disruption agreement out of BASSA. Unbelieveably BASSA would then see this as a result, but i think WW is probably playing hardball all the way and is hoping to squash BASSA into the bargain and the only way he can do that is with a strike.
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Targets
I thinks (but might be wrong) the original cost saving target was £124m over two year, i.e. £62m a year.
The only time £170m (actually £174) was mentioned was in BASSA's ludicrous valuation of their initial offer - you know, the one where they claimed the saving of the entire cost to BA for all diversions.
The only time £170m (actually £174) was mentioned was in BASSA's ludicrous valuation of their initial offer - you know, the one where they claimed the saving of the entire cost to BA for all diversions.
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Even more local Cabin Crew avail should they be wanted, plus other airline staff, sad news for all EI staff.
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BBC News - Aer Lingus job cuts to total 670
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BBC News - Aer Lingus job cuts to total 670
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My thanks to those who are good at sums. I was getting a bit confused there.
Are these new VRs? Or the 1000-odd VRs that happened already at LGW and are thus, presumably, a 'done deal' already? And are therefore already saved, done and dusted. And, if 're-instated', would simply add to the bill/losses?
Sorry, it just gets so complicated. I have substantial sympathy for anyone trying to make sense of it all. No wonder CC have difficulty with the vague ballot question[s].
Are these new VRs? Or the 1000-odd VRs that happened already at LGW and are thus, presumably, a 'done deal' already? And are therefore already saved, done and dusted. And, if 're-instated', would simply add to the bill/losses?
Sorry, it just gets so complicated. I have substantial sympathy for anyone trying to make sense of it all. No wonder CC have difficulty with the vague ballot question[s].