British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by A Lurker
You see my friend here is a classic case of a little information in the wrong hands!!!! - Whilst our number of passengers fell 4.4% in December 2009 compared to December 2008 - you also need to understand that we reduced our seat capacity in the same period ( for those of you who do not fly - in simple terms we reduced either aircraft or frequency of flights) over the same period by 4.2%
So in fact our passenger numbers where down circa 0.2% - and our load factor was actually UP 1.9%
Always glad to help
So in fact our passenger numbers where down circa 0.2% - and our load factor was actually UP 1.9%
Always glad to help
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Rugby
Posts: 883
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On Tony Woodley's involvement...
Peugeot had allegedly suggested that it was planning to cease operations there and the plant was being closed with the loss of all jobs.
Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson allegedly entered a period of consultation with the local union representatives as to the way forward and industrial action to prevent the closure was on the agenda?
Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson allegedly entered a period of consultation with the local union representatives as to the way forward and industrial action to prevent the closure was on the agenda?
A Lurker
Only if the FT article quoted has got its figures wrong!
The percentage decrease in passengers carried on these two months is a simple calculation, one that is completely unaffected by any of the various reasons for the decline, and is just based on the two numbers.
Some, or even all, of this percentage decrease, may very well have been caused by a reduction in available capacity; and you correctly explained how it is quite possible for the load factor to rise at the same time; but that does not mean the FT was wrong.
The FT said that the number of worldwide passenger carried by BA, in Dec 2009, was 2.4 million, and that this was a 4.4% slide (reduction) from the passenger numbers carried in Dec 2008. The inference to be drawn is that BA carried around 2.51 million passengers in Dec 2008.
You stated that passenger numbers are down by only circa 0.2%, implying that the figures quoted by the FT are wrong.
Is that what you mean to say - that the FT figures are wrong – if so, could you please give us the correct figures and quote your source?
Best Regards
Bellerophon
...in fact our passenger numbers where (sic) down circa 0.2%...
The percentage decrease in passengers carried on these two months is a simple calculation, one that is completely unaffected by any of the various reasons for the decline, and is just based on the two numbers.
Some, or even all, of this percentage decrease, may very well have been caused by a reduction in available capacity; and you correctly explained how it is quite possible for the load factor to rise at the same time; but that does not mean the FT was wrong.
The FT said that the number of worldwide passenger carried by BA, in Dec 2009, was 2.4 million, and that this was a 4.4% slide (reduction) from the passenger numbers carried in Dec 2008. The inference to be drawn is that BA carried around 2.51 million passengers in Dec 2008.
You stated that passenger numbers are down by only circa 0.2%, implying that the figures quoted by the FT are wrong.
Is that what you mean to say - that the FT figures are wrong – if so, could you please give us the correct figures and quote your source?
Best Regards
Bellerophon
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like Japan Airline will be trading no more, government has decided not to bail it out...
The avaition industry is indeed grim these days, doing anything to weaken the position of your employer in the present climate could be somewhat foolish - for my part I know when I'm on to a good thing and keep my head down, do you?
The avaition industry is indeed grim these days, doing anything to weaken the position of your employer in the present climate could be somewhat foolish - for my part I know when I'm on to a good thing and keep my head down, do you?
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Outside the EU on a small Island
Age: 79
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you all ... I wasn't trying to cause a major diversion [ooops] but merely trying to emphasise the 'number of votes' associated with the paying pax.
Anyway, back to the main issue ... with my apologies again.
Anyway, back to the main issue ... with my apologies again.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lurker,
You truly are a God! Or maybe just Alistair Campbell masquerading as A Lurker. From the BA website, total passenger figures for December 2009 was 2,401,000. The figure for December 2008 was 2,511,000.
In your post you stated "So in fact our passenger numbers where down circa 0.2%"
From the same BA website, total passenger load factor was 76.8% in December 2009 against 76.7% in December 2008.
In your post you stated "our load factor was actually UP 1.9%"
Can you confirm that it is not actually freezing outside, and that the snow and ice is just an hallucination?
You truly are a God! Or maybe just Alistair Campbell masquerading as A Lurker. From the BA website, total passenger figures for December 2009 was 2,401,000. The figure for December 2008 was 2,511,000.
In your post you stated "So in fact our passenger numbers where down circa 0.2%"
From the same BA website, total passenger load factor was 76.8% in December 2009 against 76.7% in December 2008.
In your post you stated "our load factor was actually UP 1.9%"
Can you confirm that it is not actually freezing outside, and that the snow and ice is just an hallucination?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: England
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the BA Press Office Website British Airways - Press Office
Summary of the headline figures
In December 2009, passenger capacity, measured in Available Seat Kilometres, was 4.2 per cent below December 2008. Traffic, measured in Revenue Passenger Kilometres, fell by 4.0 per cent. This resulted in a passenger load factor increase of 0.1 points versus last year, to 76.8 per cent. Traffic comprised a 0.7 per cent decrease in premium traffic and a 4.6 per cent decrease in non-premium traffic. Within premium, Club World was up 1.6 per cent. Despite severe weather in the month, 98 per cent of flights operated.
Cargo, measured in Cargo Tonne Kilometres, rose by 7.2 per cent.
Market conditions
Underlying conditions remain as reported last month with longhaul premium continuing to show signs of improvement.
Summary of the headline figures
In December 2009, passenger capacity, measured in Available Seat Kilometres, was 4.2 per cent below December 2008. Traffic, measured in Revenue Passenger Kilometres, fell by 4.0 per cent. This resulted in a passenger load factor increase of 0.1 points versus last year, to 76.8 per cent. Traffic comprised a 0.7 per cent decrease in premium traffic and a 4.6 per cent decrease in non-premium traffic. Within premium, Club World was up 1.6 per cent. Despite severe weather in the month, 98 per cent of flights operated.
Cargo, measured in Cargo Tonne Kilometres, rose by 7.2 per cent.
Market conditions
Underlying conditions remain as reported last month with longhaul premium continuing to show signs of improvement.
With the threat of strikes in Dec and pax swapping to other carriers it would have been a miracle if pax numbers had not decreased. If capacity had not been reduced BA would have lost even more money.
Incidently have BASSA found a venue for their meeting yet. On the 4/1 I wrote
I read on this thread that BASSA had still to confirm/find a venue for its meeting on the 15th. I wonder if this could be because venues were all inexplicably all booked up. If I were the management of Sandown Racecourse the scenes shown on national TV in mid December must have been pretty embarassing and I would be surprised if they would want a re-run.
Regards and Happy New Year
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I could go on and on but this regime does nothing to sort out weather problems year after year ( major world hub ) not enough de-icers etc etc its a joke.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you BASSA types think BA is run by a regime, then junta is probably the best word to describe your own leadership.
A Lurker, I'm sure people will stop talking about your numbers.
The only one that really matters is how much is BA losing every day?
A Lurker, I'm sure people will stop talking about your numbers.
The only one that really matters is how much is BA losing every day?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: glos
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aaah, but, Lurker, unlike an imposed political "regime" you actually have a CHOICE.
You can
a.) Buy enough shares/persuade enough shareholders to get a majority and unseat the current LT
or
b.) Resign and seek employment elsewhere.
As is clear from the public and media reaction to the incredibly inept handling of this crisis by BASSA, dressing up narrow self interest as defending "the interests of the customer" is fooling no-one.
To subsequently try and equate such efforts with the struggles of the armed forces in World War II, or the Tolpuddle Martyrs is frankly ludicrous.
Why don't you just get on with the job you are paid to do, and leave the managing to the managers?
You can
a.) Buy enough shares/persuade enough shareholders to get a majority and unseat the current LT
or
b.) Resign and seek employment elsewhere.
As is clear from the public and media reaction to the incredibly inept handling of this crisis by BASSA, dressing up narrow self interest as defending "the interests of the customer" is fooling no-one.
To subsequently try and equate such efforts with the struggles of the armed forces in World War II, or the Tolpuddle Martyrs is frankly ludicrous.
Why don't you just get on with the job you are paid to do, and leave the managing to the managers?
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Posted by Lurker
Practise what you preach.
If you did, you would go out of your way. Isn't that what you teach as a Customer Service Trainer? To go above and beyond the call of duty every time.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above are my personal views and not those of BA.
Can you please tell me one occasion when I havent 'got on' with the job I am paid to do? I do it every day in work - the fact I am in dispute with my employer does not stop me from doing my job to the best of my abilities on a daily basis - why would it
I think part of the point being made is the fact that employees will not go out of their way due to the strength of feeling that a large number of employees feel with this current management regime
If you did, you would go out of your way. Isn't that what you teach as a Customer Service Trainer? To go above and beyond the call of duty every time.
I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above are my personal views and not those of BA.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: london
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said tiramisu.
A. Lurker - does it not strike you as odd that all other departments have come to an agreement with management other than cabin crew? Perhaps the fault lies with BASSA rather than the management?
It is very easy to blame other people. For example when a cabin crew colleague commented on the cost savings a day or two ago, the reply said that BASSA had overestimated the savings. The outcry was that it was Delloitte and Touche that had underestimated the savings. Do you really believe BASSA got the numbers more correct than one of the most respected accountancy firms on the planet?
As for our management and leadership team, I do not always agree with them. However, to refer to them as a joke is nothing short of insulting. BA have survived when many airlines have not. You have a job when many other cabin crew (on far lesser T and C's than you) have not. Perhaps it is BASSA that is the joke this time?
A. Lurker - does it not strike you as odd that all other departments have come to an agreement with management other than cabin crew? Perhaps the fault lies with BASSA rather than the management?
It is very easy to blame other people. For example when a cabin crew colleague commented on the cost savings a day or two ago, the reply said that BASSA had overestimated the savings. The outcry was that it was Delloitte and Touche that had underestimated the savings. Do you really believe BASSA got the numbers more correct than one of the most respected accountancy firms on the planet?
As for our management and leadership team, I do not always agree with them. However, to refer to them as a joke is nothing short of insulting. BA have survived when many airlines have not. You have a job when many other cabin crew (on far lesser T and C's than you) have not. Perhaps it is BASSA that is the joke this time?
A Lurker
As you so politely put it:
In your explanation, you have gone from saying:
to agreeing that the FT was correct, as you now say:
Good, we can all agree that your earlier innumerate post, that passenger numbers were down by only circa 0.2%, was wrong, and that the correct figure was 4.4%.
Also wrong was another part of your post:
In the report you so kindly directed me to, BA gives the correct increase as only +0.1%.
Undeterred, you now go on to another mathematical non-sequitur:
No, it isn’t obvious that numbers would be down.
Possible, certainly; arguably even probable; but, mathematically, unless there were fewer seats available for sale in Dec 2009 than the number of passengers carried in Dec 2008, there is no direct correlation between the number of seats on offer and the number of passengers carried.
The price of each seat will pay a major part in determining the number of passengers, as Ryanair continues to demonstrate.
Certainly, as soon as those who quote numbers in support of their arguments which are, either deliberately or inadvertently, incorrect, have the good grace to acknowledge their errors.
As I did recently, to your colleague Meal Chucker!
Pesky things, facts.
Best Regards
Bellerophon
As you so politely put it:
...to make this as simple as possible...
...in fact our passenger numbers where (sic) down circa 0.2%...
...Our passenger numbers where (sic) down 4.4% on the same period last year - in this case December...
Also wrong was another part of your post:
...and our load factor was actually UP 1.9%...
Undeterred, you now go on to another mathematical non-sequitur:
...it would be obvious that numbers would be down if you had reduced your frequency of flights...
Possible, certainly; arguably even probable; but, mathematically, unless there were fewer seats available for sale in Dec 2009 than the number of passengers carried in Dec 2008, there is no direct correlation between the number of seats on offer and the number of passengers carried.
The price of each seat will pay a major part in determining the number of passengers, as Ryanair continues to demonstrate.
...We all have our views and opinions on the traffic figures and why customer numbers are down - however can we get back to the thread topic now?...
As I did recently, to your colleague Meal Chucker!
Pesky things, facts.
Best Regards
Bellerophon
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 35,000 ft
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just can't understand why there are people out there who pay their membership to bassa and then stub them in the back at every possible opportunities.
What is wrong with you people? Do you have any sort of principles?
IF you hate this Union so much just go away and join another union or even better don't have a union at all...
I am sure you will be so much better off...
What is wrong with you people? Do you have any sort of principles?
IF you hate this Union so much just go away and join another union or even better don't have a union at all...
I am sure you will be so much better off...
Now, let's just look at your statement in reverse:
If you hate this COMPANY so much just go away and join another company or even better don't have a company at all....
I am sure you will be so much better off....
Do you see how the modern, free thinking world works now Romans?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 35,000 ft
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is interesting to see how the lies, and betrayal by the Union continues.
Just about 3-4 weeks ago, we were given a strike ballot over IMPOSITION. We were told by Unite that there would be NO NEGOTIATION until IMPOSITION was removed. We were led like lambs to the slaughter for a strike of 12 days over Xmas, causing the most profound public hatred for us and deeply damaging for our company.
And now Unite are talking but imposition is still in place. So, Bassa supporters, how is this Union in any way representing the members? Why, if they are negotiating now, did they not do it before and avoid all this stress and upset?
It is time for this Union to hang it's head in shame at the disgrace it has brought on our community.
I am BA cabin crew and the above is my own view and not that of BA.
Just about 3-4 weeks ago, we were given a strike ballot over IMPOSITION. We were told by Unite that there would be NO NEGOTIATION until IMPOSITION was removed. We were led like lambs to the slaughter for a strike of 12 days over Xmas, causing the most profound public hatred for us and deeply damaging for our company.
And now Unite are talking but imposition is still in place.
So, Bassa supporters, how is this Union in any way representing the members? Why, if they are negotiating now, did they not do it before and avoid all this stress and upset?It is time for this Union to hang it's head in shame at the disgrace it has brought on our community.
I am BA cabin crew and the above is my own view and not that of BA.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: glos
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fume Event
But it will not be any BA cabin crew resigning from the airline.
However, if the rhetoric on CF etc is to be believed there will be plenty of CC leaving the airline another way! They are being shown how by the BASSA reps.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Island of Aphrodite
Age: 75
Posts: 530
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ref Post 1463 from SNAS
"Looks like Japan Airline will be trading no more, government has decided not to bail it out..."
"Reports in Japan, citing unnamed government officials, say the country's finance minister Naoto Kan, transport minister Seiji Maehara and other cabinet ministers met today.
The reports say this is the final stage of discussions and there are two different plans on the table - one is to have JAL restructure via bankruptcy and the other is to restructure out-of-court."
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although only 3000c have voted in the Bassa poll, around 70% have voted to strike for more than 10 days.
Is it not incredible that so many crew still believe that's how they'll achieve..................................................... ................
............................................................ ............................
........................................................
god knows what!!
Is it not incredible that so many crew still believe that's how they'll achieve..................................................... ................
............................................................ ............................
........................................................
god knows what!!