British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Do the rank and file BASSA members feel they've been had over by the UNITE leadership, with the local BASSA reps being brushed aside during this dispute ?
I ask the question as a few i've met recently feel this way.
I ask the question as a few i've met recently feel this way.
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anotherthing - I think you're being a little hard on finncapt. I'm fairly sure cabin crew are not entitled to J class positioning flights, so if commercial passengers were downgraded to make way for them I'm sure there'll be consequences for whoever put the crew in J when said downgraded passengers ring up for their refunds.
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Carnage Matey.
Not being harsh whatsoever, unless stating the obvious is being harsh. Henkybaby - who everyone seems to agree on this forum has been the voice of reason - states as FACT something he witnessed.
Finncapt dismisses it out of hand because as several people have stated, this should not happen. If anyone is being harsh, it is Finncapt. Henkybaby concedes that it might not be allowed practice, but that does not remove the fact that Henkybaby witnessed it happen!
If Finncapt or anyone else does not believe that a certain percentage of people in all manner or professions bend the rules to suit, then they are being delusional. Sorry, was that truth a bit harsh too?
Irrespective of whether it should happen or not, Henkybaby reportedly witnessed it. That is not a difference of opinions it is Finncap saying Henkybaby is telling porkies.
The similarity between this and BASSA telling their membership porkies is a fair parallel in the context of this and the previous thread.
Not being harsh whatsoever, unless stating the obvious is being harsh. Henkybaby - who everyone seems to agree on this forum has been the voice of reason - states as FACT something he witnessed.
Finncapt dismisses it out of hand because as several people have stated, this should not happen. If anyone is being harsh, it is Finncapt. Henkybaby concedes that it might not be allowed practice, but that does not remove the fact that Henkybaby witnessed it happen!
If Finncapt or anyone else does not believe that a certain percentage of people in all manner or professions bend the rules to suit, then they are being delusional. Sorry, was that truth a bit harsh too?
Irrespective of whether it should happen or not, Henkybaby reportedly witnessed it. That is not a difference of opinions it is Finncap saying Henkybaby is telling porkies.
The similarity between this and BASSA telling their membership porkies is a fair parallel in the context of this and the previous thread.
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WRT to my earlier moaning about CC in J-class ... I never suggested pax were down-graded. It's just my guess that there's a 90% probability they reserve the best seats (747 62K anyone?) reducing the on-line seat selection options for the paying pax ... especially those travelling as a couple, where the dreadful cabin layout really limits our options.
Anyway, back in my box ... carry on please.
Anyway, back in my box ... carry on please.
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Anotherthing
I dispute that Henky is the quite the voice of reason as you so claim.
What he alleges was his perceived version of the facts.
In fact I am surprised that he was so scathing in his reply to me if he is, what he suggests, a professional mediator.
Finland celebrates Christmas today, and we have guests arriving soon, so I probably won't be able to defend my view until tomorrow, but defend it I will if I think it neccessary.
If scathing is too strong for you, put something a bit milder.
I dispute that Henky is the quite the voice of reason as you so claim.
What he alleges was his perceived version of the facts.
In fact I am surprised that he was so scathing in his reply to me if he is, what he suggests, a professional mediator.
Finland celebrates Christmas today, and we have guests arriving soon, so I probably won't be able to defend my view until tomorrow, but defend it I will if I think it neccessary.
If scathing is too strong for you, put something a bit milder.
Last edited by finncapt; 24th Dec 2009 at 11:28. Reason: Added
Two-Tone...
It's just my guess that there's a 90% probability they reserve the best seats (747 62K anyone?) reducing the on-line seat selection options for the paying pax ...
. Anyone stepping out of line by trying something like you suggest would be shown the door pronto.Finally can I wish you and everyone else virtually here a Happy Christmas..
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Winstonsmith - think a brush up on the rules required. Flight crew have 'J' priority when positioning and if a first seat is available can use that. Cabin Crew have economy priority but if better seats are available are allowed to be upgraded. CSD has different priority to the rest of the crew. Guess the policy is to reflect the chain of command on board the aircraft.
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Unless the rules have changed - cabin crew have a J priority when positioning but that doesn't mean that they can't travel in Y which seems to happen every now and then - I think onload priority is 04/J41.
The only time when seats in Club has to be given is when crew are positioning after a duty of 15 hours or longer!
The only time when seats in Club has to be given is when crew are positioning after a duty of 15 hours or longer!
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Cabin crew. You have been openly discussing your duty travel seat entitlements on this forum which is accessible by non BA staff who may be BA passengers.
You are not doing yourself any favours. You are just enhancing the opinion of many pax that some cabin crew regard themselves as more important than the pax they serve.
My neighbour told me yesterday that his company are switching all their business away from BA because they can't risk a strike in Feb. They are not switching it back to BA after Feb either. Very sad news.
The squabbling and entitlement demands on this forum have not been pretty.
I am BA staff who believe that some things in the company like staff travel rules, which are complex should remain private. It is clear from posts on this forum that some of our passengers have gained erroneous ideas that cabin crew are given priority in seating over fare paying passengers. If that has happened it is contrary to policy.
Back to the main thread. GG and Tiramisu, very good posts throughout. Mr Bunker and CarnageMatey always sensible and accurate posts too.
You are not doing yourself any favours. You are just enhancing the opinion of many pax that some cabin crew regard themselves as more important than the pax they serve.
My neighbour told me yesterday that his company are switching all their business away from BA because they can't risk a strike in Feb. They are not switching it back to BA after Feb either. Very sad news.
The squabbling and entitlement demands on this forum have not been pretty.
I am BA staff who believe that some things in the company like staff travel rules, which are complex should remain private. It is clear from posts on this forum that some of our passengers have gained erroneous ideas that cabin crew are given priority in seating over fare paying passengers. If that has happened it is contrary to policy.
Back to the main thread. GG and Tiramisu, very good posts throughout. Mr Bunker and CarnageMatey always sensible and accurate posts too.
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@ draglift ... no, it's just interesting to see the perks CC get. Which may, of course, influence the paying pax's opinion on CC's "perceived status". Still, the cork's out the bottle now.
FYI, senior civil servants and senior military officers only get J-class on duty flights in excess of [i think] 6 hours. Otherwise it's down the back. If senior CC regard themselves as equivalent to a serving lt col/wg cdr, that's their perception. The salaries are certainly in the same territory. Just don't expect me to subsidise that perception with my own money ... at least until we see CSDs working on the front line in Afghanistan, without many days off.
I don't blame the individuals - some VERY nice/cosy deals have been struck in the past, and they are obviously taking the fullest advantage of them. But that's an issue for BA/BASSA/Unite. Just don't expect too many paying pax to keep funding the "High Life"
FYI, senior civil servants and senior military officers only get J-class on duty flights in excess of [i think] 6 hours. Otherwise it's down the back. If senior CC regard themselves as equivalent to a serving lt col/wg cdr, that's their perception. The salaries are certainly in the same territory. Just don't expect me to subsidise that perception with my own money ... at least until we see CSDs working on the front line in Afghanistan, without many days off.
I don't blame the individuals - some VERY nice/cosy deals have been struck in the past, and they are obviously taking the fullest advantage of them. But that's an issue for BA/BASSA/Unite. Just don't expect too many paying pax to keep funding the "High Life"
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BA Humbug!!!
This is my 1st post having been reading this thread for many months. I am filled with a sense of foreboding for everyone involved to the extent I believe that BA will look a very different business in 12-18 months time. Not neccessarily to everyone's benefit. The personalisation of the dispute with WW is inevitable BUT malicious and badly misguided. The appointment of Broughton as chairman heralded a sea change in how the company was to be managed going forward. Let's face it as an accountant by profession and a board member to boot Broughton was well aware of the underlying issues that were hampering BA's financial progress. I have no doubt that Willie Walsh's terms of reference on appointment included a requirement to restore shareholder value. This is a business that has all but destroyed that value, by my calculation we have failed to pay out a dividend on fifteen of the last sixteen calls. Plus the share price hovers some 75p above the flotation price which in real terms, taking account of inflation, means that we investors have lost money. Does this simple fact resonate with staff involved in the current dispute? Not a bit. Their determination to hold on to a Byzantine set of scheduling agreements, against a background of pay scales that are the envy of many both inside and outside our industry, beggars belief. Especially given the dramatic downturn in the fortunes of legacy carriers such as BA during this global recession. In the past BA could avoid tackling "fortress LHR" by harvesting all the low hanging fruit in the guise of shutting down BA Regional, N.Atl services from BHX, GLA & MAN, contact centres in BFS & GLA and many other initiatives away from the south-east to buy time before inevitably having to tackle the vested interests at home. I was some 36 years with BA, half that time as a manager. As an example I can remember first hand the impact of the Disruption Agreement on our customers during diversions and that was in my early days with the airline. That this "agreement" is still in place some 30 years after I witnessed its negative impact speaks volumes for the company's failure to grasp the nettle and deal with these matters over time. That all of this is coming to a head now is a sad reflection on past management and TU representatives to sit down and thrash out T & C's appropriate to the economic circumstances of the times.
Travelling through T5 yesterday I was somewhat chastened to think what might have been if a point of law had not prevailed and prevented such a callous act in the form of a 12 day stoppage. The architects of that decision should be hanging their collective heads in shame that they would consider ruining our customers Christmas holidays in such a tawdry way.
Travelling through T5 yesterday I was somewhat chastened to think what might have been if a point of law had not prevailed and prevented such a callous act in the form of a 12 day stoppage. The architects of that decision should be hanging their collective heads in shame that they would consider ruining our customers Christmas holidays in such a tawdry way.
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What senior civil servants get for business travel is irrelevant. Their employer is paying a commercial rate for the seat and that perk has a significant and tangible cost. BA are not paying a commercial rate to position crew on their own aircraft. I'm not buying the argument that BAs positioning policy should reflect the travel arrangements of an entirely unrelated organisation.
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@ CarnageMatey ... fair point. We pay, you go free. Just like the RAF really.
Although 10 hours on a C-130 is not quite J-class .. unless you sling a hammock from above the ramp [although it's cold up there]. The CSD is usually a flight sergeant, but he hands out sandwich bags with style
Anyway, it will all be over in a few months.
Who is going to buy T5 and all those aircraft?
Although 10 hours on a C-130 is not quite J-class .. unless you sling a hammock from above the ramp [although it's cold up there]. The CSD is usually a flight sergeant, but he hands out sandwich bags with style
Anyway, it will all be over in a few months.
Who is going to buy T5 and all those aircraft?
Last edited by Two-Tone-Blue; 24th Dec 2009 at 18:15.
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Drew332,
An excellent letter to Santa. I hope He grants those wishes to all of us and that we will continue for many years to do a job that we love, for a company that we are proud to work for.
Thankyou to everyone on this thread who has supported our cause. It is extremely hard being a member of cabin crew, devoted to your job, and working alongside people that literally want to sabotage the company. The support and factual information have helped our cause somewhat, and I hope that we, the Proud No Voters, continue to gain support within the community.
Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas.
An excellent letter to Santa. I hope He grants those wishes to all of us and that we will continue for many years to do a job that we love, for a company that we are proud to work for.
Thankyou to everyone on this thread who has supported our cause. It is extremely hard being a member of cabin crew, devoted to your job, and working alongside people that literally want to sabotage the company. The support and factual information have helped our cause somewhat, and I hope that we, the Proud No Voters, continue to gain support within the community.
Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas.
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T5 is owned by BAA why would they be selling it? BA's aeroplanes are also leased so will be returned to their various owning companies.
All crew - flight or cabin that position have a priority for seats in nice areas - but only if they have not been sold to commercials. A paying pax is NEVER downgraded to give a crew member a better seat. There is one caveat - all positioning crew have a non off-loadeable onload code. This is purely for commercial reasons - it is more important to have the crew in the correct place than a few passengers, that way the areoplanes can be flown to earn revenue - a crew out of place costs the company money. However in these situations Revenue Management take seats off sale to allow the crew to position. This is just business nothing more. It is nothing to do with status or anything else, please stop trying to make it into something it isn't.
Happy Christmas to all - may we all have jobs in the New Year
All crew - flight or cabin that position have a priority for seats in nice areas - but only if they have not been sold to commercials. A paying pax is NEVER downgraded to give a crew member a better seat. There is one caveat - all positioning crew have a non off-loadeable onload code. This is purely for commercial reasons - it is more important to have the crew in the correct place than a few passengers, that way the areoplanes can be flown to earn revenue - a crew out of place costs the company money. However in these situations Revenue Management take seats off sale to allow the crew to position. This is just business nothing more. It is nothing to do with status or anything else, please stop trying to make it into something it isn't.
Happy Christmas to all - may we all have jobs in the New Year
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I think with the idea of an hourly rate being introduced, with a higher basic, I think that could be, as Tiramisu mentioned earlier difficult with crew whinging that they have a roster of Moscows, night moscows, 3 day 8 sectors whilst other crew who do the early CDG there and backs get the same. Although don't forget that by being paid an hourly rate they will still get more for more work as they are being paid by the hour, although many crew will whinge about not having long day payments, CAT payments, ETP etc etc.... but like you say a long day premium could still be given to days over 10 hours for example. I think that would actually be much fairer than the current system.
Do a early Moscow and because of the time you check in you may get around £45 (breakfast which isn't much, lunch, base early report and long day) or if you do the late you may get up to £70 (lunch, dinner, long day)
Do a 6 hr GVA there and back and if you are in GVA at 2000 get £66 ish.... do an earlier GVA and back you are in LHR at 2000 - get £33!! Do a 10 hour TIP there and back and you only get lunch and long day about £40 so less than someone who does the late GVA!!
Then again the destination payment is good when on a nighstop as in Switzerland you need to eat and in the hotel/restaurants they are so much more expensive than if you were in Prague for example... Maybe they could pay Daily Overseas Allowance at a different rate. They could introduce bands. Band A could be GVA, ZRH etc and have a higher rate.... Band C/D could be PRG/WAW/all the low cost of living destinations which is paid at a low rate....
Do a early Moscow and because of the time you check in you may get around £45 (breakfast which isn't much, lunch, base early report and long day) or if you do the late you may get up to £70 (lunch, dinner, long day)
Do a 6 hr GVA there and back and if you are in GVA at 2000 get £66 ish.... do an earlier GVA and back you are in LHR at 2000 - get £33!! Do a 10 hour TIP there and back and you only get lunch and long day about £40 so less than someone who does the late GVA!!
Then again the destination payment is good when on a nighstop as in Switzerland you need to eat and in the hotel/restaurants they are so much more expensive than if you were in Prague for example... Maybe they could pay Daily Overseas Allowance at a different rate. They could introduce bands. Band A could be GVA, ZRH etc and have a higher rate.... Band C/D could be PRG/WAW/all the low cost of living destinations which is paid at a low rate....