British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Hmmm ... 90 days. Looks like my next trip is going to be screwed. Already booked and paid for, too. I wonder who repays me if it doesn't happen due to IA?
Ohhh ... nobody. How nice.
Ohhh ... nobody. How nice.
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TTB, the way it happened in Alitalia was that the company re-issued new contracts, along the lines of the Air One contracts, in the same envelopes as the notice of 90 notice of termination.
Those who were CHOSEN to receive the new contract were deemed to have resigned if they didn't return their contracts signed by a specific date.
It would seem that the obstinate nature of certain LH CSD's heading a certain Union may be slowly forcing the company hand!
Both barrels, both feet and shoot.
Those who were CHOSEN to receive the new contract were deemed to have resigned if they didn't return their contracts signed by a specific date.
It would seem that the obstinate nature of certain LH CSD's heading a certain Union may be slowly forcing the company hand!
Both barrels, both feet and shoot.
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unfair constructive dismissal
unfair constructive dismissal is one element and the other is terminating an original contract. Same result but different procedures.
I feel we have an agreement or at best an acceptance of the facts in the doubting camp.
British Airways has the options that I alluded to in my original post.
"Romans" has conceded that fact and I too concede that there are statutory notice periods and compliance considerations.
Please be aware that it is certainly an option, and not a pleasant one.
My advice is free and , by definition, worthless.
I feel we have an agreement or at best an acceptance of the facts in the doubting camp.
British Airways has the options that I alluded to in my original post.
"Romans" has conceded that fact and I too concede that there are statutory notice periods and compliance considerations.
Please be aware that it is certainly an option, and not a pleasant one.
My advice is free and , by definition, worthless.
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@ wobble ... thank you. You of course understand that all this is speculation and uncertainty at the moment.
Needless to say, from a personal perspective, at the moment any BA CC are completely off my Christmas Card list, and are unlikely to even get a nod from me IF i actually get to fly as I've booked and paid for.
Needless to say, from a personal perspective, at the moment any BA CC are completely off my Christmas Card list, and are unlikely to even get a nod from me IF i actually get to fly as I've booked and paid for.
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romans44 - With respect, it is somewhat naive to think that just because BA hasn't imposed changes by way of 90 days' notice of termination of contract, doesn't mean they haven't considered doing so, and won't do so.
Consider the following:
1. BA is already set to make another record loss this financial year which could have been mitigated substantially had BASSA played ball from the outset and agreed to sensible changes. BA can't keep on making heavy losses forever.
2. The 12 day strike threat will have already done a lot of damage to BA.
As soon as the strike threat was known holders of those lucrative fully flexible bookings will have been able to take their business elsewhere. All available seats for the 12 day strike period were taken off sale from when the 12 day strike was announced until the High Court stopped the strike - these seats being last minute bookings that would have commanded revenue at or near to full fare.
A lot of customers will have been put off making future bookings with BA, not least because of the ongoing strike threat, impacting on both revenue and cash flow.
3. The disruption due to snow before and after Christmas (not helped by BASSA repeatedly refusing to allow the disruption agreement to be put in place) will have cost the airline a lot in lost revenue, hotel accomodation, diversion costs etc.
This all in what is traditionally a very difficult quarter for airlines in any event. Unless things turnaround soon, BA may not have any option.
Consider the following:
1. BA is already set to make another record loss this financial year which could have been mitigated substantially had BASSA played ball from the outset and agreed to sensible changes. BA can't keep on making heavy losses forever.
2. The 12 day strike threat will have already done a lot of damage to BA.
As soon as the strike threat was known holders of those lucrative fully flexible bookings will have been able to take their business elsewhere. All available seats for the 12 day strike period were taken off sale from when the 12 day strike was announced until the High Court stopped the strike - these seats being last minute bookings that would have commanded revenue at or near to full fare.
A lot of customers will have been put off making future bookings with BA, not least because of the ongoing strike threat, impacting on both revenue and cash flow.
3. The disruption due to snow before and after Christmas (not helped by BASSA repeatedly refusing to allow the disruption agreement to be put in place) will have cost the airline a lot in lost revenue, hotel accomodation, diversion costs etc.
This all in what is traditionally a very difficult quarter for airlines in any event. Unless things turnaround soon, BA may not have any option.
Last edited by LD12986; 6th Jan 2010 at 19:02.
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I have been informed that BA asked lalalady today for implementation of the disruption agreement. She refused. BA have ignored procedures and now IMPOSED the disruption agreement.
BA issue instructions to cabin crew that have diverted to operate back to base with reduced rest (against BASSA's instructions). If they refuse, they are putting themselves personally out on a very uncomfortable limb.
All this on the day BA and Unite agree to reconvene meetings.
BA = upping the ante.
BASSA (followers), where do you think the public sympathy will lie?
Well done Wille.
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TTB
The upshot of the whole exercise is that the company has the ability to decide which CC it wishes to retain and which it wishes to remove.
For the customer the whole thing is totally transparent as the two contracts run side by side.
Personally I hope it never comes to it and that BASSA are bankrupt by BA in the upcoming court case. I will be highly surprised if Unite don't seek a settlement before the court case as the punitive damages to BA could run potentially into hundreds of millions. Something I am fairly sure those Unite members struggling in other industries, where they don't get paid well over market rate, will be very, very annoyed to pay out for.
Good luck for your trip. I will be there and working, even in the cabin if required trying not to spill a cup of tea, it's a tricky job!
The upshot of the whole exercise is that the company has the ability to decide which CC it wishes to retain and which it wishes to remove.
For the customer the whole thing is totally transparent as the two contracts run side by side.
Personally I hope it never comes to it and that BASSA are bankrupt by BA in the upcoming court case. I will be highly surprised if Unite don't seek a settlement before the court case as the punitive damages to BA could run potentially into hundreds of millions. Something I am fairly sure those Unite members struggling in other industries, where they don't get paid well over market rate, will be very, very annoyed to pay out for.
Good luck for your trip. I will be there and working, even in the cabin if required trying not to spill a cup of tea, it's a tricky job!
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Just consider this.
Perhaps BA hasn't changed contracts as yet because...
The court case is going to decide whether the changes are contractual or not.
If they are not contractual, there is no need to change contracts.
If they are contractual, it is up to BA to decide to find the changes reasonable and issue a change to the terms of the contract with it then up to the employee to decide to accept or not.
Perhaps BA hasn't changed contracts as yet because...
The court case is going to decide whether the changes are contractual or not.
If they are not contractual, there is no need to change contracts.
If they are contractual, it is up to BA to decide to find the changes reasonable and issue a change to the terms of the contract with it then up to the employee to decide to accept or not.
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Once again interlog nails it:
It is worthy of note that the 90 day rule is for the dissenters to ponder their decision. If the notice of termination comes with the new contract, one can be back at work the following day clutching a newly signed contract.
Now that is food for thought
The court case is going to decide whether the changes are contractual or not.
If they are not contractual, there is no need to change contracts.
If they are contractual, it is up to BA to decide to find the changes reasonable and issue a change to the terms of the contract with it then up to the employee to decide to accept or not.
If they are not contractual, there is no need to change contracts.
If they are contractual, it is up to BA to decide to find the changes reasonable and issue a change to the terms of the contract with it then up to the employee to decide to accept or not.
Now that is food for thought
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BA may have been waiting to see if Bassa would implode on their own.
Many crew registered with a solicitor - O H Parsons - and may unwittingly become personally liable to compensation claims.
Bassa very cleverly avoided mentioning this in any official documents.
It is clear that BA are manouevering to remove Bassa's power.
Suspending reps and dissident CSDs is only the beginning.
BA's survival is at stake and BA cannot afford to lose.
Bassa need to start negotiating NOW.
SOME STUFF THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT THE JUDGE AND THE INJUNCTION RULING MUST BE LIBELLOUS
Many crew registered with a solicitor - O H Parsons - and may unwittingly become personally liable to compensation claims.
Bassa very cleverly avoided mentioning this in any official documents.
It is clear that BA are manouevering to remove Bassa's power.
Suspending reps and dissident CSDs is only the beginning.
BA's survival is at stake and BA cannot afford to lose.
Bassa need to start negotiating NOW.
SOME STUFF THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT THE JUDGE AND THE INJUNCTION RULING MUST BE LIBELLOUS
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I have also had contract changes introduced using the 90 day rule (with another leading major UK travel group) in the past- totally legal and accepted by me due to the clear understanding that the company gave me about the trading positions thert were encountering at the time.
In fairness to BA I think that is what they have been trying to do for the last 9 months - BUT certain parties have failed to participate in the process
For those of you that are pro BASSA may I suggest that you ask of them if this option is available to BA - no retoric just a straight yes or no - you need to have a full understanding of what options BA have before you vote. To do so without knowing the full facts may well be a decision you will come to regret.
BASSA and Unite are now totally on the back foot (fact) - their legal position has been shown to be wanting, inposition is in and running (as would have been known looking at LGW SF), the PR war as been lost, the 1st Feb hearing will (in my opinion) come out in support of the company position. Also to be honest if BA do go down the 90 day route a substancial part of the media and your customer base would be in total agreement with BA's decision
Last post from me on this subject - think its all been said already. For those that accept the need to change - I wish you all the very best. For those of you that want to make an informed decision - ask questions and focus on fact not retoric. For those of you that would rather die than change the job centre awaits
In fairness to BA I think that is what they have been trying to do for the last 9 months - BUT certain parties have failed to participate in the process
For those of you that are pro BASSA may I suggest that you ask of them if this option is available to BA - no retoric just a straight yes or no - you need to have a full understanding of what options BA have before you vote. To do so without knowing the full facts may well be a decision you will come to regret.
BASSA and Unite are now totally on the back foot (fact) - their legal position has been shown to be wanting, inposition is in and running (as would have been known looking at LGW SF), the PR war as been lost, the 1st Feb hearing will (in my opinion) come out in support of the company position. Also to be honest if BA do go down the 90 day route a substancial part of the media and your customer base would be in total agreement with BA's decision
Last post from me on this subject - think its all been said already. For those that accept the need to change - I wish you all the very best. For those of you that want to make an informed decision - ask questions and focus on fact not retoric. For those of you that would rather die than change the job centre awaits
Last edited by cym; 6th Jan 2010 at 21:59.
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You eat, why shouldn't we?
Topbunk
I think the right to eat is actually a moral one as it is fulfilling a basic need! I further think you will find that your crew are not functioning as well as they could without that need fulfilled! The new EU working time directive has now obligated employers to ensure that employees have rest time built in to their working day. There is a higher authority than the CAA!
As for your ARN flights, where I eat is of little concern to me. On LHR/ARN/LHR BA kindly provide me with an approximation of a meal and, should I fail to have time to eat it (not uncommon on a full 767), an extra half hour at the end of my duty day; on the ARN/LHR/ARN this unfortunately would not be the case therefore I must leave the a/c to find my own sustenance. My employer could choose to supply me with a meal as it does for its Flight Crew and then I could stay on the plane, that would be fine too! As long as I get to sit down and have a meal I really don't care. And as for
What is hamstringing the company in rostering more efficiently EF crews is the insistence of T5 security that they do not want Euro crews wandering around airside when they have not been screened at LHR making fixed links difficult. Oh, that and about 1000 too many crew and having not planned ahead for the reduction in the Boeing flying schedule inspite of talking about it since 2000, but you don't want to get me started on that!
Actually I think you will find that is an Industrial Agreement and not a legal requirement.
As for your ARN flights, where I eat is of little concern to me. On LHR/ARN/LHR BA kindly provide me with an approximation of a meal and, should I fail to have time to eat it (not uncommon on a full 767), an extra half hour at the end of my duty day; on the ARN/LHR/ARN this unfortunately would not be the case therefore I must leave the a/c to find my own sustenance. My employer could choose to supply me with a meal as it does for its Flight Crew and then I could stay on the plane, that would be fine too! As long as I get to sit down and have a meal I really don't care. And as for
This LHR EF Agreement is one of the things hamstringing the company in rostering more efficiently in EF.
Last edited by ottergirl; 6th Jan 2010 at 19:24. Reason: fine tuning
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Two-Tone Blue
Needless to say, from a personal perspective, at the moment any BA CC are completely off my Christmas Card list, and are unlikely to even get a nod from me IF i actually get to fly as I've booked and paid for.
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In fairness to BA I think that is what they have been trying to do for the last 9 months - BUT certain parties have failed to participate in the process
It is when those discussions break down and a Company finds the changes reasonable (for example in order to survive) that they will refer to existing contracts and reserve the right to change them giving appropriate notice.
Best bet is not to force the Company to make those changes but agree them.
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O H Parsons
The Blue Riband observed:
Indeed they did and I did advise a number of crew members to ascertain what they were actually signing up to.
To my certain knowledge, three crew members contacted O H Parsons to seek confirmation that they would not be held personally liable for any reciprocal action.
The silence has been defeaning.
Many crew registered with a solicitor - O H Parsons - and may unwittingly become personally liable to compensation claims.
Bassa very cleverly avoided mentioning this in any official documents.
Bassa very cleverly avoided mentioning this in any official documents.
To my certain knowledge, three crew members contacted O H Parsons to seek confirmation that they would not be held personally liable for any reciprocal action.
The silence has been defeaning.
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Wobble2plank
I am sure you would be very welcomed if you decided to help out serving tea and coffee.Who knows ,you may even enjoy it.After all ,it would make a nice change from reading the paper and doing the crossword.
I am sure you would be very welcomed if you decided to help out serving tea and coffee.Who knows ,you may even enjoy it.After all ,it would make a nice change from reading the paper and doing the crossword.
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Indeed they did and I did advise a number of crew members to ascertain what they were actually signing up to.
To my certain knowledge, three crew members contacted O H Parsons to seek confirmation that they would not be held personally liable for any reciprocal action.
The silence has been defeaning.
To my certain knowledge, three crew members contacted O H Parsons to seek confirmation that they would not be held personally liable for any reciprocal action.
The silence has been defeaning.
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Guys, BA has to give 90 days notice to do that....now a lot can happen in 90 days..can we just move forward?
all of this is simple speculation, I don't think BA will ever go down that road but if they do we will simply have to cross that bridge when we come to that.
Can we just be happy that both sides are talking again?
all of this is simple speculation, I don't think BA will ever go down that road but if they do we will simply have to cross that bridge when we come to that.
Can we just be happy that both sides are talking again?
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O H Parsons
In the event, the persons that I consulted with chose not to sign up due to the lack of information.
Nothing has ever been received back from O H Parsons chambers regarding the remote but possible liability concerns.
However, there are perhaps others who are currently on the edge of their seats.
Nothing has ever been received back from O H Parsons chambers regarding the remote but possible liability concerns.
However, there are perhaps others who are currently on the edge of their seats.