British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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Lurker - many may be afraid of you and your Unions' scaremongering tactics of "your new pay deal is coming". Unfortunately, it would take rather more hard evidence than that to unnerve me. 
I'm afraid postings that offer no facts, no evidence, just sheer unadulterated hearsay are quite honestly a waste of time. It really is getting tedious.
By the way, how do you feel about your beloved Union negotiating while the imposition is still in place, after all their spoutings that they wouldn't?
I am BA cabin crew and the above is my own view and not that of BA.
I'm afraid postings that offer no facts, no evidence, just sheer unadulterated hearsay are quite honestly a waste of time. It really is getting tedious.
By the way, how do you feel about your beloved Union negotiating while the imposition is still in place, after all their spoutings that they wouldn't?
I am BA cabin crew and the above is my own view and not that of BA.
Two tone blue - let's not get dragged down here. Trolley Dolly is mildly offensive and at best derogatory.
Lurker - Let's not try to gain the moral high ground while simultaneously losing it - punter is just as offensive.
Stick to the argument chaps and chapesses
Lurker - Let's not try to gain the moral high ground while simultaneously losing it - punter is just as offensive.
Stick to the argument chaps and chapesses
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Lurker - the BA Value Calculator on BA.com would refute your unsubstantiated claim, and demonstrates how BA has none of the hidden extras that Ryanair and EasyJet do, thereby offering more value for money.
Value Calculator - Ryanair | Easyjet | British Airways
I am BA cabin crew and the above is my own view and not that of BA.
Value Calculator - Ryanair | Easyjet | British Airways
I am BA cabin crew and the above is my own view and not that of BA.
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Gosh - 4 PARA!! I'm really scared now. TA, isn't it? Did you stay long?
I did 30 years. Professionally, full time. Never argued with orders either.
Flaps62 ... yes, I know. Naughty me.
I did 30 years. Professionally, full time. Never argued with orders either.
Flaps62 ... yes, I know. Naughty me.
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Two-Tone-Blue
Yes TA based in Walton, Liverpool ( now relocated ) and as you know what The Para's are like for establishment 
I did 6 years - passed out in October 1980 and did my wings course at Brize in February 81
I still have links with the military in a role outside of BA
I did 6 years - passed out in October 1980 and did my wings course at Brize in February 81
I still have links with the military in a role outside of BA
Join Date: Jun 2009
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I think you'll find the whole of BA's operation is massively more expensive to operate. Including WW CSDs. That's what this is all about.
Or is it imposition? Or is it New Fleet? Or is it about Union power? Or is it just a fight for the sake of fighting?
Or is it imposition? Or is it New Fleet? Or is it about Union power? Or is it just a fight for the sake of fighting?
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A Lurker - yes EasyJet and RyanAir are very successful however BA does like Hiflyer says have lots more value compared to EZY/FR. Generous baggage allowance (rather than having to pay for it!) easy FREE check in options (Ryanair makes you pay to check in at the airport, it is only free to check in online - which is disadvantaging elderly customers/less computer savvy customers) also BA has better track records of looking after customers with delays. I know we obviously have had some problems of recent with T5 baggage fiasco etc but what I am saying is some other low cost airlines have no back up if anything has gone wrong. They also travel to rather inconvenient airports miles from the cities they serve (Ryanair are the biggest culprits of this!)
Passengers want different things than they wanted years ago really, they want to get to the destination safely, quickly and want to be able to check in decent baggage allowances and have plenty of check in options which we provide. For our Club/Exec card silver/gold/prems we have excellent lounge facilities especially at T5 which are the most important things for customers on sh. And we still have a v.good Club product. Yes, ET has been reduced but drinks are still free. Longer flights still have food. Long gone are the days of hot meals on a CDG but pax have more priorities for their money.
I know that sounded abit like an advert for BA but think I got my point across! Back to CC T&Cs and Unite's tactics!
Passengers want different things than they wanted years ago really, they want to get to the destination safely, quickly and want to be able to check in decent baggage allowances and have plenty of check in options which we provide. For our Club/Exec card silver/gold/prems we have excellent lounge facilities especially at T5 which are the most important things for customers on sh. And we still have a v.good Club product. Yes, ET has been reduced but drinks are still free. Longer flights still have food. Long gone are the days of hot meals on a CDG but pax have more priorities for their money.
I know that sounded abit like an advert for BA but think I got my point across! Back to CC T&Cs and Unite's tactics!
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Oh and A Lurker if you are getting at we might have to sell drinks and snacks down the back in the future etc.... well maybe who knows - however that would be only down to the market. We are the only airline on shorthaul that doesn't charge for any extras onboard (apart from maybe the choosing seating etc which is still quite generous really)
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A Lurker
Your assertion about easyJet and Ryanair's cost base in Europe is spot on imo and is the absolute nub of BA's current financial predicament - the whole premise for them seeking to permanently lower their cost base.
This applies to Long and Short haul.
BA can no longer command a premium over other carriers (like c.10 years ago or so) on LH or SH. They can (imo) still command a small premium due network, schedules, value calculator, completions etc etc
BA can carve a market in SH (and feed LH) bt needs to get its costs down PDQ (not necessarily to match the LCC's) but to be nearer (hence market rate plus 10%). It can also improve costs by driving efficiency (fixed links, more annual hours, later finishes. flexible disruption agreements etc etc).
On LH, the same applies (admittidely annual hours already maxed), but working crew harder, flexible disruption etc etc is still key. UK LH market is much more competitive than anywhere in Europe. What other European country has as much LH competition as BA (VS/major US carrier presence/Open Skies etc). People still often diven on price and BA have to be competitive against carriers with lower cost bases.
At least you agree BA have to be cost competitive to compete and is has to be a permanent lower cost base and increased productivity across all fleets.......
BA has to once and for all shake off it's civil service mentality in some areas and agreements that came at that time too.
Your assertion about easyJet and Ryanair's cost base in Europe is spot on imo and is the absolute nub of BA's current financial predicament - the whole premise for them seeking to permanently lower their cost base.
This applies to Long and Short haul.
BA can no longer command a premium over other carriers (like c.10 years ago or so) on LH or SH. They can (imo) still command a small premium due network, schedules, value calculator, completions etc etc
BA can carve a market in SH (and feed LH) bt needs to get its costs down PDQ (not necessarily to match the LCC's) but to be nearer (hence market rate plus 10%). It can also improve costs by driving efficiency (fixed links, more annual hours, later finishes. flexible disruption agreements etc etc).
On LH, the same applies (admittidely annual hours already maxed), but working crew harder, flexible disruption etc etc is still key. UK LH market is much more competitive than anywhere in Europe. What other European country has as much LH competition as BA (VS/major US carrier presence/Open Skies etc). People still often diven on price and BA have to be competitive against carriers with lower cost bases.
At least you agree BA have to be cost competitive to compete and is has to be a permanent lower cost base and increased productivity across all fleets.......
BA has to once and for all shake off it's civil service mentality in some areas and agreements that came at that time too.
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For those of you who are hell bent on driving a comparison between the Loco's and thLHR S/H operation don't seem to understand how the finances backing SH work.
SH has quietly turned a profit for a fair few years until this little spat.
That is when all LH connecting flight revenues for SH flights are attributed to the LH gained revenue. SH gains only a punitive (£10 springs to rusty memory) fee from each passenger. Yet despite this SH has turned profit.
So, whilst there is room for competition within the SH arena don't write off LHR SH just yet. Costs are under control, productivity (thanks Willie) is on the up and the recent ice has shown just how EJ and RYR can get caught as well.
SH has quietly turned a profit for a fair few years until this little spat.
That is when all LH connecting flight revenues for SH flights are attributed to the LH gained revenue. SH gains only a punitive (£10 springs to rusty memory) fee from each passenger. Yet despite this SH has turned profit.
So, whilst there is room for competition within the SH arena don't write off LHR SH just yet. Costs are under control, productivity (thanks Willie) is on the up and the recent ice has shown just how EJ and RYR can get caught as well.
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as it is way too expensive in comparison to its competitors - that is my opinion and I can see BA making changes to the way it operates
It's called improved productivity. More and more within the community recognise that this is the way forward, to protect our livelihoods. Glad to see you you've finally cottoned on, Lurker. Now, can you please go and explain it to the rest of the members.
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the recent ice has shown just how EJ and RYR can get caught as well.
Been an interesting couple of days! Won't be going anywhere without a nightstop kit for a while!
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Glad to see you you've finally cottoned on, Lurker. Now, can you please go and explain it to the rest of the members.
I heard today (from a reliable source, obviously) that over 4000 cabin crew registered on-line to work over the "12 days of Christmas strike dates"
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I,m just a punter but are the changes that are causing the proplem only on WW out of LHR. If so did BASSA only ballot those affected?
Or did all CC get balloted?
So are people who are not affected getting to vote on the matter.
Or did all CC get balloted?
So are people who are not affected getting to vote on the matter.
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BASSA (or UNITE) balloted all their members based at both LHR and LGW. Return was 92.4% of 10.286 members.
And some people say all of us are mislead by the union. Grow up.
And some people say all of us are mislead by the union. Grow up.
"Will you take part in strike action?" YES/NO?
Brilliant, well thought out actions with clear concise direction to take the dispute forward to a resolvable position.
Half of those balloted thought it was about New Fleet! Mislead? Misinformed!
Good to see that the brains of the BASSA brigade are giving their verdict on the immanent death of SH. Obviously you want Willie Walsh out of the way as he has the stupidity to continue to expand the SH fleet! How dare he.
Ironically the Ryr business model requires the rapid expansion of the airline with the fast turnover of aircraft purchased at a knock down cost. The recent windfall to Ryr investors is a double edged sword as the inability to purchase, sell and lease back cheap airframes is going to impact Mr O'Learys bottom line very soon in the future. Oddly enough we are starting to see the firms cracks with the ramping up of the ridiculous 'extras' associated to >75% of the seats on the aircraft.
Be wary of 'snapshotting' companies as you must dig deeper under the skin to find the revenue streams, many which aren't normally apparent.
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Why the sudden talk of BA disposing of short-haul? Short-haul and long-haul are not separate islands. It isn't going to happen:
- Some long-haul routes would not be sustainable without feeder traffic from short-haul
- Feeder traffic from short-haul also provides volume on routes where BA competes in the business market on frequency (ie JFK)
- Feeder traffic from Europe at the moment is helping to compensate for weak demand ex-UK (in BA's words it has "turned on the taps" to increase feeder traffic from Europe), something which Virgin has not been able to do (plus there are exchange benefits at the moment due to the weakness of the pound against the Euro)
- Short-haul routes can be used to "babysit" slots to stop them from being lost if not used. Hence why LGW routes have been temporarily moved to LHR to keep the slots acquired under the BMED deal with bmi.
Yes BA could still have a short-haul feeder operation if it disposed of it to a third party, but why would it want to cede control of an operation (including the slots) to a third party when it's so important to the long-haul business?
If anything, the past 12+ months have shown the importance of short-haul in being able to assist with maintaining demand and keep hold of slots at LHR when the long-haul business is weak.
- Some long-haul routes would not be sustainable without feeder traffic from short-haul
- Feeder traffic from short-haul also provides volume on routes where BA competes in the business market on frequency (ie JFK)
- Feeder traffic from Europe at the moment is helping to compensate for weak demand ex-UK (in BA's words it has "turned on the taps" to increase feeder traffic from Europe), something which Virgin has not been able to do (plus there are exchange benefits at the moment due to the weakness of the pound against the Euro)
- Short-haul routes can be used to "babysit" slots to stop them from being lost if not used. Hence why LGW routes have been temporarily moved to LHR to keep the slots acquired under the BMED deal with bmi.
Yes BA could still have a short-haul feeder operation if it disposed of it to a third party, but why would it want to cede control of an operation (including the slots) to a third party when it's so important to the long-haul business?
If anything, the past 12+ months have shown the importance of short-haul in being able to assist with maintaining demand and keep hold of slots at LHR when the long-haul business is weak.
Last edited by LD12986; 8th Jan 2010 at 21:30.
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Just goes to show...
We've talked for quite some time about the unions sacrifising(sp?) the regions, then LGW, to protect the fortress. The next in line, predicted by many, is EF, to protect WWLHR.
Why this topic now? Anything you want to tell us, folks? That means, not what is proclaimed on GalleyFM, but something that can be sourced as truth/fact.
Gg
We've talked for quite some time about the unions sacrifising(sp?) the regions, then LGW, to protect the fortress. The next in line, predicted by many, is EF, to protect WWLHR.
Why this topic now? Anything you want to tell us, folks? That means, not what is proclaimed on GalleyFM, but something that can be sourced as truth/fact.
Gg