British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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different strokes
If Easyjet/Ryanair/BA fly to 'a' destination each with 100 customers paying the exact same fare - which airline do you think would make the least profit?
Easyjet and Ryanair do point to point traffic, all one class without frills, reward, or much flexibilty.
We do Club Europe, lounges, exec club rewards and fully flexible fares. All of which are important to our customers. Today I left a European destination with a full a/c at the same time as EZ, but I had 20 full-fare Club pax so I would hope we were the most profitable. I also had about 100 folk connecting to the USA and FarEast so feeding our long-haul network. Only 30% of our customers are from the UK; we bring in a lot of passengers to the long-haul flights and there would be a lot less needed if there was no BA short-haul network.
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Jarvy
are the changes that are causing the proplem only on WW out of LHR.
So in short, all crew on all fleets were balloted.
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Don't want you to be accused of misleading anyone.
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BASSA (or UNITE) balloted all their members based at both LHR and LGW. Return was 92.4% of 10.286 members.
And some people say all of us are mislead by the union. Grow up.
And some people say all of us are mislead by the union. Grow up.
Can I suggest that you stop avoiding the truth?
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There are many bulletin boards on the net dedicated to passengers sharing their airline experiences. In minute, mind-boggling detail.
We have a forum right here on PPRuNe where passengers can discuss anything having to do with their travels and experiences. Many of us who are employed in the industry regularly pop in to the SLF forum to answer questions or clarify something.
The target audience of this forum is cabin crew.
Pilots, passengers, ground staff, Walts and anybody else with a point view can chip in if they like.
But not to the point of outnumbering the natives, not to the point of drowning out the voices of the core user group.
This is forum policy and not a matter for discussion, so spare us having to delete your arguments.
As said many times, CC forum, CC thread.
.. and for those of you claiming ´rights´ and ´freedom of speech´; they don´t apply here. You signed up to a set of rules, and they apply. This is a privately owned bulletin board, you pay nothing to participate here and you have no ´rights´.
Time for a reality check people.
We have a forum right here on PPRuNe where passengers can discuss anything having to do with their travels and experiences. Many of us who are employed in the industry regularly pop in to the SLF forum to answer questions or clarify something.
The target audience of this forum is cabin crew.
Pilots, passengers, ground staff, Walts and anybody else with a point view can chip in if they like.
But not to the point of outnumbering the natives, not to the point of drowning out the voices of the core user group.
This is forum policy and not a matter for discussion, so spare us having to delete your arguments.
As said many times, CC forum, CC thread.
.. and for those of you claiming ´rights´ and ´freedom of speech´; they don´t apply here. You signed up to a set of rules, and they apply. This is a privately owned bulletin board, you pay nothing to participate here and you have no ´rights´.
Time for a reality check people.
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And some people say all of us are mislead by the union.
Lurker - you have completely gone off track. This is about IR - you are saying SH is not competitive. I, and the rest of the company, are saying none of it is competitive. Not WW, Not SH, Not CSDs, Not even SFG. NONE of us. So you are arguing a bit of a moot point.
I don't really dispute that SH (or any of us) are not competitive. So that's why I AM prepared to make the necessary changes. Now that you have admitted that (some of) the operation is not competitive, do you agree that we HAVE to change in order to survive?
That is what this is all about. We have to change in order to be competitive. Whichever fleet we operate on.
Now, thanks for the sidetrack, but please don't evade the question ...please can you provide facts on the New Pay Deal that you keep scaremongering people with? Show me an email where it has been said that our pay will be changed.
I am BA cabin crew and the above is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
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The "situation"
As the local bookies here in Jersey will not take bets on when the big thaw will set in, or who will form the next government in the UK, I asked what odds they would give on the speedy resolution of the BA industrial dispute that occupies us all on this thread.
Result: a furrowing of brows and a loud, prolonged, sucking of teeth.
I personally have no intention of making money out of others' misfortune (I leave that to a certain lady who lives far, far away), but the booky's reluctance to offer any odds spoke volumes.
Can anyone give me a price?
Result: a furrowing of brows and a loud, prolonged, sucking of teeth.
I personally have no intention of making money out of others' misfortune (I leave that to a certain lady who lives far, far away), but the booky's reluctance to offer any odds spoke volumes.
Can anyone give me a price?
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ottergirl
Today I left a European destination with a full a/c at the same time as EZ, but I had 20 full-fare Club pax
As you know the exec club have been doing some fairly discounted promotions to get people (back?) into the club Europe.
The only ticket worth having in the club Europe cabin from BAs perspective is the fully flexible, and I can tell you there are not a great deal of these being sold at the moment.
As well as the current promotions for the sake of completeness there's also often the facility to pay for an upgrade to Club at the airport, on the day, often for around £100 or so. Nobody on the Crew has any real idea what people have paid for their seats.
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Today I left a European destination with a full a/c at the same time as EZ, but I had 20 full-fare Club pax
Pax numbers don’t tell the financial story on their own, a story which we all know anyway, loosing over a million a day, hence the requirement for change... This isn’t disputed is it? The loss that is. I've been reading enough to establish the fact that some people dont agree the change...!
Last edited by Snas; 9th Jan 2010 at 16:12. Reason: typo
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So there is some common ground
The more that this thread has gone on, the more I am convinced that there is a growing acknowledgement on both sides of the real issue and that is the future of BA.
Lurker is among a group that clearly speaks for BASSA and it has to be said that they do keep their end up extremely well. Without their presence on the forum there would be little real debate making the thread pointless.
Mixed in with the BASSA supporters on this forum are some very perceptive opponents that certainly have a good insight as to what running an airline is all about and the need to trade without the threat of industrial action.
Over the many years that BASSA have been in existence, they have done a fantastic job of building up membership and creating a very loyal following. Indeed, to have over 10,000 of the workforce of BA Cabin Crew signed up is very impressive. With the loyal following and the continual skilled negotiations with BA over the more successful years, BASSA has secured terms and conditions that are impressive.
We have a situation where BASSA has a working agreement in place that requires their acceptance of changes to working practices. Given that turkeys don’t vote for Christmas and the representatives know they can call on their membership for support when agreement is not reached, most would agree that BASSA is certainly in a very enviable position.
The acknowledgement that I talked about at the start of the post is that British Airways needs to become more competitive to survive in the marketplace. It needs profits for re-equipping, pension deficits, dividends etc. The good times are over, the gravy train has hit the buffers. I think everyone is looking for BASSA to chip a bit into the pot as well as all the other groups that make up British Airways in order that it can go forward.
To my certain knowledge, under all of the CEO's, British Airways has never missed banking the pay cheque and sure it will continue to do so given just a little support from it's worforce.
Lurker is among a group that clearly speaks for BASSA and it has to be said that they do keep their end up extremely well. Without their presence on the forum there would be little real debate making the thread pointless.
Mixed in with the BASSA supporters on this forum are some very perceptive opponents that certainly have a good insight as to what running an airline is all about and the need to trade without the threat of industrial action.
Over the many years that BASSA have been in existence, they have done a fantastic job of building up membership and creating a very loyal following. Indeed, to have over 10,000 of the workforce of BA Cabin Crew signed up is very impressive. With the loyal following and the continual skilled negotiations with BA over the more successful years, BASSA has secured terms and conditions that are impressive.
We have a situation where BASSA has a working agreement in place that requires their acceptance of changes to working practices. Given that turkeys don’t vote for Christmas and the representatives know they can call on their membership for support when agreement is not reached, most would agree that BASSA is certainly in a very enviable position.
The acknowledgement that I talked about at the start of the post is that British Airways needs to become more competitive to survive in the marketplace. It needs profits for re-equipping, pension deficits, dividends etc. The good times are over, the gravy train has hit the buffers. I think everyone is looking for BASSA to chip a bit into the pot as well as all the other groups that make up British Airways in order that it can go forward.
To my certain knowledge, under all of the CEO's, British Airways has never missed banking the pay cheque and sure it will continue to do so given just a little support from it's worforce.
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Just sent to me
Snow/Disruption/Free for all?
Bill Francis has just written to all crew via ESS, commending us (crew) for adopting a “can do” attitude in the face of the severe weather.
It would appear somewhat ironic that perhaps no one has epitomized this spirit more than him and his department.
The weather handed him a further opportunity to fully demonstrate his complete and utter disregard for any agreement that simply does not suit him.
It would appear that when he refers to a “can do” spirit, he refers to his own - in so much as he “can do” whatever he wants, whenever he wants.
He has asked for flexibility and yet has given none; since the arrival of the snow your cabin crew agreements have, in effect been ripped up. Whether at LHR or LGW, Eurofleet or Worldwide, they have quite simply been routinely and completely ignored. Yet any crew member who dares to be late because of the extreme weather is punished by classing it as an “unacceptable” reason!
Duties are altered, rules bent and then broken at will; they just do not care anymore.
The disruption agreement has NOT been agreed, yet crew are being forced to work to it; hotel standbys have been invented, aircraft leave short of crew and are breaking duty rules on an hourly basis.
We issued an email warning that this could occur and for individuals to be aware of their own rules; if they were then asked to break them, they would already be aware of what could and could not be asked of them.
Within hours, the threat of legal action from British Airways was received at Unites’ office in central London, claiming that if your union in any way encouraged our members to be aware of their own agreement rules, BA would seek action against us for “unofficial industrial action” and seek to declare our impending ballot illegal, alongside seeking massive financial damages.
Are they correct? Only a court could decide and with the result in December, your union had little alternative than to err on the side of caution.
We could not risk jeopardising your ballot.
Advice for each individual is available on our website, and we think it important that you read it as a matter of urgency.
Your union has been placed in an extremely difficult position, one we have never faced before. We have, quite simply been prevented, due to legal technicalities, from protecting you, or ensuring that your agreements are not broken; our hands have been tied. To avoid any risk of BA arguing you are taking unofficial action before a ballot you must ensure you work normally and as directed by your managers.
The irony is that British Airways sought to commence talks in central London this week, in an attempt to reach an agreement to solve the impending ballot, whilst simultaneously branding as worthless the agreements that we already currently have.
Welcome to the future. We have tried to warn you for over a year now that this day was coming; it has now arrived. They just don’t care what an agreement says, if it suits they will ignore it, and if your union tries to defend you, they will attempt to silence us.
For now as crew we are finding it difficult to respond collectively without jeopardising our ballot for an organised industrial fight back, yet in only 12 days time, you will have your power back in the form of a vote, please don’t waste it!
Bill Francis has just written to all crew via ESS, commending us (crew) for adopting a “can do” attitude in the face of the severe weather.
It would appear somewhat ironic that perhaps no one has epitomized this spirit more than him and his department.
The weather handed him a further opportunity to fully demonstrate his complete and utter disregard for any agreement that simply does not suit him.
It would appear that when he refers to a “can do” spirit, he refers to his own - in so much as he “can do” whatever he wants, whenever he wants.
He has asked for flexibility and yet has given none; since the arrival of the snow your cabin crew agreements have, in effect been ripped up. Whether at LHR or LGW, Eurofleet or Worldwide, they have quite simply been routinely and completely ignored. Yet any crew member who dares to be late because of the extreme weather is punished by classing it as an “unacceptable” reason!
Duties are altered, rules bent and then broken at will; they just do not care anymore.
The disruption agreement has NOT been agreed, yet crew are being forced to work to it; hotel standbys have been invented, aircraft leave short of crew and are breaking duty rules on an hourly basis.
We issued an email warning that this could occur and for individuals to be aware of their own rules; if they were then asked to break them, they would already be aware of what could and could not be asked of them.
Within hours, the threat of legal action from British Airways was received at Unites’ office in central London, claiming that if your union in any way encouraged our members to be aware of their own agreement rules, BA would seek action against us for “unofficial industrial action” and seek to declare our impending ballot illegal, alongside seeking massive financial damages.
Are they correct? Only a court could decide and with the result in December, your union had little alternative than to err on the side of caution.
We could not risk jeopardising your ballot.
Advice for each individual is available on our website, and we think it important that you read it as a matter of urgency.
Your union has been placed in an extremely difficult position, one we have never faced before. We have, quite simply been prevented, due to legal technicalities, from protecting you, or ensuring that your agreements are not broken; our hands have been tied. To avoid any risk of BA arguing you are taking unofficial action before a ballot you must ensure you work normally and as directed by your managers.
The irony is that British Airways sought to commence talks in central London this week, in an attempt to reach an agreement to solve the impending ballot, whilst simultaneously branding as worthless the agreements that we already currently have.
Welcome to the future. We have tried to warn you for over a year now that this day was coming; it has now arrived. They just don’t care what an agreement says, if it suits they will ignore it, and if your union tries to defend you, they will attempt to silence us.
For now as crew we are finding it difficult to respond collectively without jeopardising our ballot for an organised industrial fight back, yet in only 12 days time, you will have your power back in the form of a vote, please don’t waste it!
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Grabbing a tiger by the tail
My last post alluded to the impressive power that BASSA had built up over the years. With that power does come a need for responsibility and discretion.
Da Dog has just posted a very informative post that was forwarded to him.
It would appear that BASSA are learning what it is like when you grab the tiger by the tail.
I guess there are very few who are surprised that the tiger has turned around and lashed out.
Tigers do have very very big paws.
and that is certainly "paws for thought"
Da Dog has just posted a very informative post that was forwarded to him.
It would appear that BASSA are learning what it is like when you grab the tiger by the tail.
I guess there are very few who are surprised that the tiger has turned around and lashed out.
Tigers do have very very big paws.
and that is certainly "paws for thought"
Last edited by Rover90; 9th Jan 2010 at 19:40.
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The Bassa missive quoted by DD
Words almost fail me. LHR is hit by the worst winter weather for years. BA ask Bassa to go along with the disruption agreement. They say no and then issue the pathetic statement quoted.
The ice hits the fan, BA want to keep as many of its customers flying by asking all staff at T5 including Loaders checkin, engineers, pilots etc and CC to be flexible, but Bassa want the CC to do no such thing, just fly their rostered trips and if that trip was cancelled due to the weather push off home.
No wonder BA had to resort to legal threats to Bassa to keep the show on (well nearly) on the road.
Read the quote again and and note the totally selfish, me me me attitude, and you will see why Bassa (not CC themselves) are depised by so many other staff in BA.
The ice hits the fan, BA want to keep as many of its customers flying by asking all staff at T5 including Loaders checkin, engineers, pilots etc and CC to be flexible, but Bassa want the CC to do no such thing, just fly their rostered trips and if that trip was cancelled due to the weather push off home.
No wonder BA had to resort to legal threats to Bassa to keep the show on (well nearly) on the road.
Read the quote again and and note the totally selfish, me me me attitude, and you will see why Bassa (not CC themselves) are depised by so many other staff in BA.
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We as Cabin Crew owe no consessions to BA for the way they have behaved over the past few years is on par with a regime that has been so deplorable beyond words. Villie you have a army that is disaray look towards the future the infidels are coming to show you the door.
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WWW
We as Cabin Crew owe no consessions to BA for the way they have behaved over the past few years is on par with a regime that has been so deplorable beyond words. Villie you have a army that is disaray look towards the future the infidels are coming to show you the door.