British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V

[Maddie Baddie]

fly12345

What they want is the imposition to be removed and crewing levels to go back to what they were before. Why they are willing to risk everything is still beyond me. Things can't be like what they have always been just for the sake of it. There are fewer seats onboard than before. If BA took off another 50 seats some crew would still insist crewing levels should be the same.

The first 2 flights I did after the imposition were mad but I have not done a single flight since which hasn't worked! We still get the service done. We still get crew rest. Yes, some crew won't make it work just because they don't want to but don't go around complaining you're only getting 20 minutes and not an hour in the bunks to JFK!

[lowcostdolly]

That medical incident

Weathermap totally agree. That is the remit of all CC in whichever company.

I watch this thread with some interest but rarely post as I am not BA crew so have little insight into what is going on at BA right now. Ususally I just think "there but for the grace of god go I" in many respects. We also have our own problems coming from the orange house of horrors at LTN as well.

However Desertia and A lurker in respect of the above incident your views are both wrong......and both right in some respects.

What qualifies me to say this? I am a working CC member trained to the same standard you guys are. I also hold the following additional qualifications and training:

• RN/RSCN/Emergency Nurse Practioner
• Bsc (HONS) in Professional Practice (nursing)
• Advanced Life Support (ALS) Provider

Part of the manual at my mob (don't know if this applies to BA) is that CC continue resucitation until "qualified help arrives and takes over". You don't get much more qualified than a cardiac surgeon!!

He is trained at least to ALS standards. These standards incorporate being able to reverse the cause of the arrest and there are 8 set down. If he cannot reverse the cause it is reasonable to "call" the arrest after 20 minutes when the protocols have been exhausted because the chances of getting good cerebral function and therefore a good quality of life after this time are remote. This is what would happen in the hospital setting which is where this surgeon works and therefore what he knows. I think this is what Desertia was refering to if somewhat insensitively.

To stop resucitation is a collective decision led by the most experienced person. If somebody less experienced wishes to carry on for whatever reason this is done until a consensus can be achieved, even in a hospital enviroment.

If I had been the qualified help in this situation I would have wanted to "call" it after 20 minutes because of the knowledge I have which is far above the training provided to CC. However because of my insight into the CC role and training I would have continued to 30 minutes as I know the CC would feel they have to do this and are trained to do so.

The casualty here had a ROSC (return of spontaneous circulation) apparently following extra CPR from the CC. A Lurker is right. A life was saved.

What quality of life was saved after the brain being starved of oxygen for at least 30 minutes is something that surgeon considered 10 minutes earlier. It is highly likely that person will be in something resembling a vegetative state for their remaining days because the CC ignored his expert advice. Would you want your relative to be in this situation?

IMHO CC should be taught if a appropriatly qualified medical personnel takes over when they have PA'd for this help then they should step back.
The training we get (and I'm not knocking it) should be in the abscence of more qualified personnel.

[Tiramisu]

Passenger Safety and Security will not be compromised, and I suspect, the passengers may see a few more smiles during their flight.

Andyismyname,
As a CSD, I will make sure that safety and customer service is not compromise and remains of the highest standard on all my flights. You are right, we may see a few more smiles during the flight. Some sullen faces around of late seem to have a couldn't care less attitude.
I'm confident that most of the volunteers will do a great job and in some instances an even better job and I look forward to welcoming and working with them on board.
Having said that, there are several crew that I have worked with many crew who are brilliant at what they do.

Weather Map
Something that does amuse me about our cabin crew is the way they keep praising themselves and going on about incidents where they have saved lifes,evacuated aircraft etc etc .Firstly i want to make it quite they do a great job and i would not take that away from them.

However saving lifes and SEP is part of the job.It's not a favour your doing for customers or BA.I just wished they would get over themselves.

.

Weather Map,
I agree with you, you took the words out of my mouth!
Life saving procedures and any emergencies are part of our jobs and it's what we get paid for and what's expected of us. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above are my personal views and not those of BA.

[Desertia]

Unite the Union today warned the British Airlines Pilots Association
(BALPA) that it was not acceptable for it to take a "neutral" stance over
its members being used as possible strike-breakers in the dispute between
British Airways and its cabin crew

More threats from a powerless, socialist organisation deep in the mire of an internal power struggle.

So they can't frighten BA, now they're trying to frighten the pilots (which presumably will elicit the same "talk to the hand" response).

Then they'll go onto baggage handlers, ground staff, etc.

They can warn all they like, they are frankly toothless. Not to mention predictable.



I see BA have added F and J to the seat sale starting this week.

I wonder if they'll be offering any special "strikebreaking" fares in early March?

I wouldn't balk at upgrading my "strikebreaking" flight if the cost is reasonable.

[fincastle84]

Lowcostdolly

My wife works in a cardiac unit in a major south coast hospital & is trained to a similar level as yourself. She is also a first responder in our local community.

I read her the details of the initial post by A Lurker & asked who was right. Straight away she said the surgeon because the female will now have no quality of life because of the damage to her brain. She also expressed sorrow for the fact that the CC members had been put in such a situation. Maybe BA needs to adopt similar SOPs to your company.

Apologies mods for being off subject.

[Papillon]

You know, presuming those Unite posts are just copied and pasted, I do wonder about the basic competence of a union that can issue releases containing spelling errors and grammatical nonsense. It's nothing to do with the question at hand, but you have to ask how competent an organisation that can't even get a basic release right can really be.

[Jelly Doughnut]

Please don't resign from BASSA before you have voted NO

All of you disillusioned bassa members who are considering resigning... please vote NO first and then resign. Resigning now will only play into bassa's hands because they will end up with a higher %yes vote.
JD

[Thunderbug]

Unite the Union today warned the British Airlines Pilots Association (BALPA) that it was not acceptable for it to take a "neutral" stance over its members being used as possible strike-breakers in the dispute between British Airways and its cabin crew.

BALPA does not own me. It does not tell me what I can & can't do. It advises me as to what action it feels is best for its membership. In this case it is quite wisely remaining neutral and giving me the right to make the decision myself. And very enpowering it is too.....

But Unite, GMB & their lefty buddies don't actually want enpowered workers. They want workers that they can order around scare, belittle and lie to. Whilst all the time collecting the union dues.

Spouting garbage like that contained in this missive and the previous "s**b" publication just makes more and more want to volunteer (including many non cabin crew Unite members!)

[Maddie Baddie]

About the medical incident on the GRU flight. The crew did exactly what they were supposed to and what we have been taught in training.

Why didn't they stop when the surgeon, with their expertisee, told them to? Because we need to follow the company's outlines and we are not allowed to do otherwise, especially when it goes to investigation and they realise that crew didn't follow their procedures. It could get really nasty. The company could be sued and the crew member(s) could get into investigation.

It's the same with CPR, 30 compressions and 2 breaths. Let's say that guideline changes to 45/3 but the company doesn't change their outlines at once and haven't informed us about it. We still need to work according to what we know and what our outlines say, even if there's a doctor or nurse onboard saying there's a new guideline which says 45 compressions and 3 breaths.

That woman's life won't be the same and it's harsh to say that but the crew did everything by the book.

[77]

Maddie Baddie

but the crew did everything by the book.[

Maddie
You need to check English Law. Doing everything by the book is no defence in law. You have to do the best that you can, on the day in the circumstances.
Following company procedures is no defence in law.

It's a fact of life you are between a rock and a hard place.
Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.
As long as you do the best that you can you should be ok.

[Tiramisu]

And the two major unions at BA - Unite and the GMB - have issued a joint
statement warning all BA employees that if they take up the company's
offer to become strike-breakers in the event of renewed industrial action
between cabin crew and the airlines, they will be putting their permanent
jobs at risk.

Unite and GMB,
Thanks but no thanks, I do not take warnings from anyone except my employer and that is, British Airways.
I am not a strike breaker. I simply choose to come to work everyday to do a job that I'm employed to do to the best of my ability and will continue to do so.
Full Stop.

Jelly Doughnut,
Sorry, too late for me. I saw the light some time ago and resigned from BASSA/UNITE and then AMICUS/UNITE.
However, I agree with you that it's important to Vote NO and resign from BASSA/Unite.

I'm BA Cabin Crew and the above represent my personal views and not those of BA.

[CaptainBarbosa]

Maddie Baddie
Absolutely correct (in my opinion)

Thunderbug
This, I think, may be the biggest change required of all. Balpa would NEVER instruct anyone on how to vote, how to respond to company requests etc. It is left up to the individual. Even the reps in BALPA often hold differing views and are happy to express those views in debate. The strongest words used by BALPA to influence a descision is "recommends." This seems not to be the case in UNITE. Therefore they can't understand why the representatives of another union doesn't just tell us how to react.
Can you imagine if any of the reps in BALPA tried to do that? They would be laughed right out of their BALPA post.

[Landroger]

An outside view.

First, the disclaimers to ward off the conflagration. Not crew, not pilot, indeed not even in the business of aeroplanes at all. Nevertheless I am SLF from time to time, not always on holiday and I have always been fascinated by aircraft and flying, hence my membership of this forum. My personal opinion of generic ‘British Management’ – not necessarily BA – is, for the most part, that they couldn’t organise a p*ss up in a brewery. I hold no brief for management whatever.

That said, I began reading this thread before the ’12 days of Christmas’ proposal hit the fan and I have read every post since then. I have to say my continued interest is very much the same as; “the natural covering of a wound” that I cannot stop picking. It truly is like watching a slow motion train crash.

I am fascinated by the ebb and flow of emotion, the virtually spontaneous creation of the PCCC, the slowly changing views of those who support BASSA – because they have over the weeks – and the blind, unreasoning determination of BASSA and the union to take their Lemmings – pointlessly - over the cliff. Although I have no direct access to any opinion of BASSA, Crew or Unite staff except what is posted here, it seems to me that if half of what is said about them and by them is true, then many Cabin Crew and possibly even the whole shooting match – the airline – are doomed.

On the other hand, a good many of what I take to be pilots on here, are less than sympathetic and even quite rude. An attitude that really doesn’t help to foster or restore good crew relationships. Of course I understand that a great many people are, quite rightly, concerned about their jobs and feel outraged that others, rather less concerned if at all, are charging at the gallop towards the guns. There is a pilot in my family. At the same time, it has been quite extraordinary to see how many people –from all points of the BA compass at a guess – volunteered that they would a) break any strike and often b) volunteer to help wherever possible at anything that would help. All this before BA management declared their hand and asked staff to do that.

Lastly, it is quite instructive to read and hear how the news media are reporting the dispute, compared to how I am seeing it on this forum. Often concerns are expressed over what the media might be taking from PPRuNe, but it seems to me they are taking no notice whatsoever of the human drama. I genuinely hope that a strike can be avoided and that BASSA – at the last moment – see sense and climb off the highest of high horses, to allow genuine negotiations. For what its worth, I offer all BA employees, in every department, my sincerest best wishes in the next few weeks, which threaten to be very, very difficult indeed.

Roger.

[Basil]

Unite the Union today warned the British Airlines Pilots Association

Well, as a union member who, at the age of fifteen, refused to pay the political levy to the AEU I'm quaking in my shoes - NOT!
After that threat I guess I'll have to get my application in. Hope I get an all female flight crew so that I can ask "Coffee, tea or me?"

[wascrew]

many things

posted by a customer

``Much of my experience of BA crew (not all) is get thru the cabin as quickly as physically possible (smoke coming off the trolley wheels), go to galley, pull curtain across (as tight as possible), get out Daily Mail/Heat, crew or pax food and bitch about the company/talk about shopping, A&F, cosmetic surgery, how overworked you are, the horses etc etc (all for us pax to hear btw). If rudely disturbed by a paying "customer" scoul, tell them you are trying to have a break (all at the same time), sigh and tell them you will get back to them. if you remember (or serve them there and then reluctantly) !! If on LH grab handbag and head to bunk......charter have to make do with sitting on a catering box in the galley on a flight to MLE !!

Like I said, not all crew, but in my 20+ flights or so a year, the usual with BA......this from personal experience I am really not exagerrating......attitude/can do approach is much more appreciated/noticed``

Too true sir/madam !!
As former recent crew I can say that maybe 30% of crew I worked with were worthy of the title and postion ......a sad decline from the 80`s/90`s. Too much self importance these days and at LHR WW too much emphasis on breaks, particularly for the commuters. Going to the bunks on a 5 hour Cairo or Lagos day flight for example IMHO ridiculous in terms of customer inter reaction/service and crew expectations these days.
With regard to days off over b/days weekends etc., there is a robust UK day request system which works to 90% satisfaction most months and prudent use of leave ususally achieves a result. Of course not everyone can have the same leave. The airline industry works 365 days a year and sometimes you know you may have to go where you don`t want to go when you don`t to go and not get the allowances you want to get ..... a point that many of my colleaugues simply fail to realise. As far as Xmas is concerned every year we have the same bun fight and arguments, It`s very nuch a crew thing and blown out of proportion to peoples` expectations to hysterical levels when there should be reality.

As for the strike vote I think some are missing the point here, If you vote NO you either go with the democratic process and accept it or break the strike!! Possible/probable outcome of this is ALL crew will have to re-aplly for jobs on the new contracts, though some concession will have to be made for those who work. There will be a drop in the standard of hotel for cabin crew as soon as negotiated and current hotel contracts expire. There will be no recogniton of previous agreements that cabin crew worked to both long haul and shorthaul. The whole way cabin crew operate and their agreements will be torn up and new one implemented, I guess that the new agreement has already been written in secret.
Of course BASSA will cease to exist as representatives as there will be no-one left to represent.
Ref LALA lady I wonder how many timkes she has been accomodated in more comfort as she was entitled to on her commutes? Upgrading I believe is a demotable offence and should this story escalate as it may well do then a la Qantas there will be no upgrades to cabins not entitled for anyone! Why there should be an expectation for upgrades amongst staff and `` clingons`` I`ve never quite understood. Paying customers in premium cabins are very aware that BA is STAFF airline run by it`s staff for the benefit of the staff and not the customer and has been for years. This has to change!!!!!!!

As regards pay . BA cabin crew are all aware of the level of their basic pay. The problem comes with the variable elements which fluctuate wildly. Having said that it is endemic amongst crew to try and live to the highest level of earnings with regards to house,car and lifestyle.
Hence the panic that BASSA can generate when there is a probability of a slight drop in earnings.

Ref agreements let me give you an example

LHR-TLV-LHR Monarch Airlines done in one duty with hourly flying pay for the duty
LHR-TLV-LHR British Airways Day 1 =OFF because next days report is before 8am Day 2 LHR-TLV get off and have 24 hour rest in 5 star hotel with 140 pounds allowances DAY 3 in the afternoon TLV-LHR
Day 4 off Day 5 off Day 6 extra day off to protect forward roster in case TLV=LHR delayed after 9pm

Monarch = 2 crew man days max
British airways 6 crew man days minmum
Anyone see a need for change here

[RTR]

So, Unite warn the workers and now BALPA too.

What is it with this bunch of old backward thinking Luddites? They can't see the wood for the trees, and now they issue threats. Have you thought why? The problem is that they are as rattled as hell. They obviously believe that if anyone remotely rocks their boat they have had it. It is clear that their hurried release with its terrible grammar and spelling is a sign that they are losing it.

Issuing threats and warnings to strike breakers is a weakness that goes beyond the pale. The TUC should crack down on them. McCluskey and his mates realise they are making fundamental mistakes and have gone too far.

BALPA are no fools and twice the intelligence of Unite. That must be galling to Unite and BASSA who are amateurs with no hope of turning professional.

Make no mistake. BASSA would be prepared to sell you all down the river or throw you to the four winds. They just don't give a damn. Watch them squirm, they do it often enough.

Vote NO and get out of BASSA - they are inept and useless. To think otherwise try winning the lottery tonight!

[wobble2plank]

Unite the Union today warned the British Airlines Pilots Association

It would seem that Unite is on a mission to burn, smash, obliterate and then scorch earth any bridges it might have had with any organisation remotely associated with BA.

Personally I will do whatever I wish using my own judgment as to how it will affect my job, my future and the possible impact of my actions on my colleagues and peers.

BALPA have never, ever, told their Association membership what to do. They have always investigated, disseminated and advised. Never have they attempted to order, warn, threaten or cajole me into making a decision I didn't feel happy or informed to make.

Unlike a certain 'threatening', 'one out all out' Union led by a bunch of professional strike arrangers who have absolutely no jeopardy when it comes to members losing jobs as they only lose the subscription which would only be given out to the Labour party anyway.

Threaten away Unite. I had my fill of Union bully boy 's**b' tactics in the 80's thanks. I will make my own decisions based upon the facts as I find them. Hopefully the majority of the more intelligent BASSA members will also make sensible choices based upon real and factual information. Not the drivel coming from BASSA/Unite.

This conflict could affect you all? Yep, certainly for the better!

Working as strike breakers just shows the company that they can do without your role.

What utter tripe. It is known as asset management and knowing where, when and how to utilise your manpower assets in a time of crisis. As the 747 fleet will probably be down there will be a generated surplus of manpower available for re-allocation. When the full route structure and fleet start flying again then those personnel can take up their normal positions. Minus the militant minority who will be moaning on here, the BASSA forum and CF as to how long BA are taking to get the industrial tribunals going.

Good luck Unite, you are going to need it, especially when all of this internet diatribe gets repeated in Court!

[winstonsmith]

This is what you should think about when voting - according to a very pro yes member at another forum:

• IMPOSITION - what will this bring in the future?
• Inexperienced volunteers being drummed up to do YOUR job.
• The current terrorist threat level increase from SUBSTANTIAL to SEVERE (an attack is highly likely)
• Medical emergencies onboard the aircraft.

The ONLY thing to think about when voting is about the imposition - nothing self - but go ahead and tell crew otherwise - it's only to your own disadvantage.

[sweety]

Very true!

Please don't resign from BASSA before you have voted NO
All of you disillusioned bassa members who are considering resigning... please vote NO first and then resign. Resigning now will only play into bassa's hands because they will end up with a higher %yes vote.
JD

I was thinking about this today and was just about to post something very similar to this.

I was going to vote "NO" and then withdraw my membership.

However, it got me thinking...

if we all resign from Union, we will leave all the blind followers with no opinion of their own, just the one Unite has drilled into their brains, to do whatever thay want. In that case they will always be a majority and we, the rest, with no union membership, will just have to put up with what's brought upon us by Unite's drons.

Therefore it's just silly when people who don't belong to Union, go on about how bad things are. Yes, they are, because we have too many people that don't belong to union and in times like these we could soooo count on their "NO" votes. Yes, we would be subsidising Union by paying them but well, otherwise we let them decide our future.

I work with so many crew who don't belong to Union and moan and moan and moan. Or even worse, they don't even know about what is going on, no interest whatsoever. And by ignorance let Bassa rule their work life, so to speak.

Hmm...a tricky situation, I know.

What is clear is that we need a Union that we can trust in and the one that will communicate with BA and come to decisions which would benefit BOTH sides. That is very clearly, not BASSA.

Bring on PCCC and hope it does just that!

I the meantime, we need to be in it (union) to make sure that we can influence the decision. Well, at least try.

This saying they keep pushing "A union is as strong as it's Members" does have a different meaning.

[Newyorker001]

A lurker

Do the Crew and Unite not get how much they have now driven the rest of the company against them. People are biting at the bit to volunteer, by years of threats and not being able to change crew work practices. Dont get me wrong I hold BA crew up with the best of them, but some of the agreements that are still in place are like being back in the 60s. Crew are well paid and in return I believe most of the time do a good job.

I have now seen for far to long crew maoning about everything, your not that hard done by. We regulary have crew work for us and they cant believe and find it hard to adapt to a full time position 9-5.

Im also now tired of hearing some of the utter lies that are being fed by union reps within BASSA, Waterside has been sold already and turned into a hote.. WW is to leave as he cannot take the stress.. He gets paid to much.. who do you that would do it for less !!! the best one I heard recently was a crew member on the announcement of a 12 days strike was ... omg what am I going to do about my Holiday.. As they had voted yes, i found this justice

Please take astep back look at the facts and come back and explain exactly what you would like to achive from the strike. What is so bad. As I would find like most crew I know you are not actually sure