British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V
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IMHO I like the allowance system just as it is - I think that as soon as changes start to be made there, we are going down a slippery slope - take the bad with the good i suppose mate
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Yes I agree. An averaged meal payment could be good. But then is open to abuse. Many crew would then bid for lovely little CDG and backs. Other crew would be slogging it out on the ATH/IST/DME there and backs or 3 day 8 sectors etc and all crew would get the same money! I could accept an hourly rate - on the condition it was averaged out on how much per hour we are paid currently. So take how long I work on an average month and my allowances and divide it and then use that as the hourly rate so it would probably be at a guess £4/£5 an hour. Although then again, the current system is good when you away on a trip because as we know you get more if you do a GVA than you do in PRG. But if you see how much it is to eat downroute in both places you will know one is v.expensive and one is cheap so that's why our current system is fair. Obviously there are inconsistencies that make it very unfair but then there will be in the hourly rate really.
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ALL jobs have their frustrations. Weather affects everyone. Companies do NOT grant leave EXACTLY as applied for. As I have effectively stated, BA Cabin Crew make their bed, they lie in it.
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A Lurker
Just like those eagle-eyed cabin crew that recently spotted the Somalian trying to blow himself up and leapt upon him to restrain him? ***
So you believe that your "security checks" and "ability to spot somebody behaving out of the ordinary" cannot be carried out by staff from other departments.
Dunning-Kruger strikes again.
And I think for a lot of the pro-BASSA brigade, a passenger "behaving out of the ordinary" is one who presses the call button for an extra coffee.
And I see the cretinous Steve Turner is at it again:
BASSA and Unite have LIED about the savings for almost a year. PLEASE - DO NOT start believing their LIES now. Your jobs are at stake.
*** If you don't know, they didn't notice, and the passengers restrained him.
If you end up flying with 4 or 5 CC volunteers from Waterside on your flight, I hope you will have every confidence in their security checks and their ability to spot somebody behaving out of the ordinary.
So you believe that your "security checks" and "ability to spot somebody behaving out of the ordinary" cannot be carried out by staff from other departments.
Dunning-Kruger strikes again.
And I think for a lot of the pro-BASSA brigade, a passenger "behaving out of the ordinary" is one who presses the call button for an extra coffee.
And I see the cretinous Steve Turner is at it again:
Proposals have been tabled by Unite that meet the company 90% of the way, still the company want 100% of the cake and a little more.
*** If you don't know, they didn't notice, and the passengers restrained him.
Last edited by Desertia; 23rd Jan 2010 at 05:12. Reason: Steve Turner
Look, BA are not going to remove staff travel concessions from those who go to work. They might make decisions people disagree with, but they aren't completely stupid. The last thing they're going to do is shaft those who come to work.
It's the Hyppo principle. Here's Your Pension, Piss Off.
and for the suggestion that because I'm 75 I must have retired in 1990 with a six figure salary - no, I retired in 1983 on barely 24K salary, so you work out my pension - taken early, my decision of course, but BA have welched on the deal that they offered and I accepted, that's my gripe.
Not going to argue with you anymore, BA are shafting me and I'm not going to stop whingeing about it. Will make no difference anyway.
Best of luck.
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Exspeedbird
How are they shafting you exactly? I must have missed this.
...but they're happy to shaft those who used to work for them - and created the airline that they now have the privilege to lead - 'cos they have no further use for us, and we can't fight back. You too will retire one day.
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BACrewboy
Service on board to me is much more than just what is handed out to me, it is about pax interaction, presence in the cabin, smiles, chat (with pax !), regular cabin patrols (and mean regular) etc, doesn't matter what is physically provided. Personally, this is far more valued by me than a cr*p sandwich or meal. easyJet crew are never out of the cabin. In fact on the 319 there is no curtain at the front btwn cabin and (small) galley so they can't be ! And they do SSH there and back. 5hrs + block time each way and they still smile and cabin tidy on short t/r !
Much of my experience of BA crew (not all) is get thru the cabin as quickly as physically possible (smoke coming off the trolley wheels), go to galley, pull curtain across (as tight as possible), get out Daily Mail/Heat, crew or pax food and bitch about the company/talk about shopping, A&F, cosmetic surgery, how overworked you are, the horses etc etc (all for us pax to hear btw). If rudely disturbed by a paying "customer" scoul, tell them you are trying to have a break (all at the same time), sigh and tell them you will get back to them. if you remember (or serve them there and then reluctantly) !! If on LH grab handbag and head to bunk......charter have to make do with sitting on a catering box in the galley on a flight to MLE !!
Like I said, not all crew, but in my 20+ flights or so a year, the usual with BA......this from personal experience I am really not exagerrating......attitude/can do approach is much more appreciated/noticed by pax than physical product imo.
eJ crew have nothing (product wise to give pax) without a price, yet they are usually great. eJ btw have this week advised the markets that their load factor is higher than expected, they expect profits to be significantly higher than originally posted, their yields are higher than expected and they are taking market share from BA and an increasing number of business traffic....look at their website !
BTW not having a go at you. BA crew need to realise they are THE product and integral, not just what they have to hand out and they have huuuuge room for improvement/consistency......
Service on board to me is much more than just what is handed out to me, it is about pax interaction, presence in the cabin, smiles, chat (with pax !), regular cabin patrols (and mean regular) etc, doesn't matter what is physically provided. Personally, this is far more valued by me than a cr*p sandwich or meal. easyJet crew are never out of the cabin. In fact on the 319 there is no curtain at the front btwn cabin and (small) galley so they can't be ! And they do SSH there and back. 5hrs + block time each way and they still smile and cabin tidy on short t/r !
Much of my experience of BA crew (not all) is get thru the cabin as quickly as physically possible (smoke coming off the trolley wheels), go to galley, pull curtain across (as tight as possible), get out Daily Mail/Heat, crew or pax food and bitch about the company/talk about shopping, A&F, cosmetic surgery, how overworked you are, the horses etc etc (all for us pax to hear btw). If rudely disturbed by a paying "customer" scoul, tell them you are trying to have a break (all at the same time), sigh and tell them you will get back to them. if you remember (or serve them there and then reluctantly) !! If on LH grab handbag and head to bunk......charter have to make do with sitting on a catering box in the galley on a flight to MLE !!
Like I said, not all crew, but in my 20+ flights or so a year, the usual with BA......this from personal experience I am really not exagerrating......attitude/can do approach is much more appreciated/noticed by pax than physical product imo.
eJ crew have nothing (product wise to give pax) without a price, yet they are usually great. eJ btw have this week advised the markets that their load factor is higher than expected, they expect profits to be significantly higher than originally posted, their yields are higher than expected and they are taking market share from BA and an increasing number of business traffic....look at their website !
BTW not having a go at you. BA crew need to realise they are THE product and integral, not just what they have to hand out and they have huuuuge room for improvement/consistency......
Last edited by TOM100; 23rd Jan 2010 at 06:03.
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I'm a bit concerned about possible reprisals if I offer to help, I fear that not all of the crew are logical and reasonable about things like this, and I really don't fancy finding my car keyed when I get back, or drinking bottled water and bringing a packed lunch for the next 20 years.
On the other forums, just how much anti pilot bile is there at the moment?
Thanks.
On the other forums, just how much anti pilot bile is there at the moment?
Thanks.
Desertia, not sure if your remark is a sarcastic wind up, or a geniune enquiry ? I'll treat it as the latter.
From time immemorial, S.T. has only even been a concession, but one that was valid for life in retirement. When I retired I Cut my Coat According to My Cloth, which included considering the ability to return to visit family in the UK and USA at rebate fares that I could afford. BA have taken that away from me w.e.f. 1st April 2009, except for a "Generous " period of 5 years " To Get Used To It " - both quotes theirs.
Not only me. All pilots used to have to retire at age 55, i.e. with 10 years less service, and 10 years earlier than general staff retiring at 65, so are potentially losing out by 20 years of S.T. in retirement over other staff under the new rules. In the 1980's many general staff took early retirement too - at the behest of the Company, to 'help' them !! called Severance, but part of the package was continued S.T. as before - I have my letter dated 1983 stating just that.
I'm not going into anymore detail, my exchanges with BA management over the last 2 years are well chronicled for those who are genuinely interested in assisting to reverse the decision, and the rest find it borin' - 'cos of course it doesn't affect them. ABAP are trying to get the decision re-visited as a result of action by some of us.
Many occupations offer perks to their staff, airline staff are no different, so I'm not even going to try to justify S.T. in retirement, it has happened ever since S.T. rebate travel was allowed - even if not contractually - to my generation and those before us, and now it has been removed - selectively and vindictively, to a group who are frankly a dying and diminishing breed and would hardly be a blip in the overall scheme of things had we been allowed to maintain what we worked for, and were promised.
I actually have some sympathy with the new philosophy that has started from 1st April 2009, but there was no need to apply it retrospectively to the few old buffers now so cruelly affected.
No excuses, I feel shafted and am angry, and am not going to give up trying to get some alleviation. I accept that this is not the forum, but someone else brought up the issue of Staff Travel v.v. a possible strike, rest assured you will be cut off as quickly as my group have been.
If any reading this Cabin Crew Forum think that BA management will react sympathetically to your concerns - think again. And you too will retire one day.
Very sad, I used to be proud to say that I once worked for BOAC / BA.
Not now.
How are they shafting you exactly? I must have missed this.
Not only me. All pilots used to have to retire at age 55, i.e. with 10 years less service, and 10 years earlier than general staff retiring at 65, so are potentially losing out by 20 years of S.T. in retirement over other staff under the new rules. In the 1980's many general staff took early retirement too - at the behest of the Company, to 'help' them !! called Severance, but part of the package was continued S.T. as before - I have my letter dated 1983 stating just that.
I'm not going into anymore detail, my exchanges with BA management over the last 2 years are well chronicled for those who are genuinely interested in assisting to reverse the decision, and the rest find it borin' - 'cos of course it doesn't affect them. ABAP are trying to get the decision re-visited as a result of action by some of us.
Many occupations offer perks to their staff, airline staff are no different, so I'm not even going to try to justify S.T. in retirement, it has happened ever since S.T. rebate travel was allowed - even if not contractually - to my generation and those before us, and now it has been removed - selectively and vindictively, to a group who are frankly a dying and diminishing breed and would hardly be a blip in the overall scheme of things had we been allowed to maintain what we worked for, and were promised.
I actually have some sympathy with the new philosophy that has started from 1st April 2009, but there was no need to apply it retrospectively to the few old buffers now so cruelly affected.
No excuses, I feel shafted and am angry, and am not going to give up trying to get some alleviation. I accept that this is not the forum, but someone else brought up the issue of Staff Travel v.v. a possible strike, rest assured you will be cut off as quickly as my group have been.
If any reading this Cabin Crew Forum think that BA management will react sympathetically to your concerns - think again. And you too will retire one day.
Very sad, I used to be proud to say that I once worked for BOAC / BA.
Not now.
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Had BASSA behaved like almost every other union in BA then you wouldn't be facing these severe measures.
It's a pity No voters will suffer the same degradation in hotel quality as striking crew. It appears to be the case that No voters are going to be a small minority though.
I'm reasonably certain that the withdrawal of staff travel will only apply to those who actually strike.
On a tangent, neither BASSA nor BA know which way you vote. You don't really have to play your cards until the first day you are rostered to work during a strike.
It is going to be a tough decision for those unlucky enough to be rostered an early report on day one of a strike. All your colleagues will be watching you carefully to see what actions BA take. Should BA immediately withdraw your ST permanently can you really see all you colleagues standing strong and subjecting themselves to the same fate? Who knows what other action BA will take? Keep in mind that until they don't show up for work BA must assume an individual is not going to strike.
Should a strike crumble it will only be those who at that point have not shown up for work who will lose ST - not exactly fair, but that's life.
As I said, I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig on day one - it's kind of like being the first one to try and walk across a minefield - everyone else gets to watch and see if you survive. They can then decide whether to follow themselves...
It's a pity No voters will suffer the same degradation in hotel quality as striking crew. It appears to be the case that No voters are going to be a small minority though.
I'm reasonably certain that the withdrawal of staff travel will only apply to those who actually strike.
On a tangent, neither BASSA nor BA know which way you vote. You don't really have to play your cards until the first day you are rostered to work during a strike.
It is going to be a tough decision for those unlucky enough to be rostered an early report on day one of a strike. All your colleagues will be watching you carefully to see what actions BA take. Should BA immediately withdraw your ST permanently can you really see all you colleagues standing strong and subjecting themselves to the same fate? Who knows what other action BA will take? Keep in mind that until they don't show up for work BA must assume an individual is not going to strike.
Should a strike crumble it will only be those who at that point have not shown up for work who will lose ST - not exactly fair, but that's life.
As I said, I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig on day one - it's kind of like being the first one to try and walk across a minefield - everyone else gets to watch and see if you survive. They can then decide whether to follow themselves...
Last edited by BusDriverLHR; 23rd Jan 2010 at 06:58.
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BA have taken that away from me w.e.f. 1st April 2009, except for a "Generous " period of 5 years " To Get Used To It " - both quotes theirs.
I realise it doesn't make it any easier for you, or any of your fellow retirees, to swallow.
Best Wishes,
D
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I think there's more.
It is going to be a tough decision for those unlucky enough to be rostered an early report on day one of a strike. All your colleagues will be watching you carefully to see what actions BA take. Should BA immediately withdraw your ST permanently can you really see all you colleagues standing strong and subjecting themselves to the same fate? Who knows what other action BA will take. Keep in mind that until they don't show up for work BA must assume an individual is not going to strike.
Should a strike crumble it will only be those who at that point have not shown up for work who will lose ST - not exactly fair, but that's life.
As I said, I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig on day one - it's kind of like being the first one to try and walk across a minefield - everyone else gets to watch and see if you survive. They can then decide whether to follow themselves...
Should a strike crumble it will only be those who at that point have not shown up for work who will lose ST - not exactly fair, but that's life.
As I said, I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig on day one - it's kind of like being the first one to try and walk across a minefield - everyone else gets to watch and see if you survive. They can then decide whether to follow themselves...
as well as the sanctions which are now public knowledge I also wonder what else could be unleashed!
In my view, the main piece I can see left on the union side of the chess board is the King of Strikes!
Actually they could use their Queen of reconciliation and negotiation!
If you were the company, what would you do if that doesn't happen?
On this forum over the past few months we have discussed, lockouts, dismissal, legal action and all sorts.
A lot of the hypertheticals have now actually materialised, I wonder what is next? If this comes to a strike I think it will be more than Staff Travel they should be worried about.
My view in response to an earlier post. Doesn't represent my employer or any other party.
Last edited by Clarified; 23rd Jan 2010 at 07:46.
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Three quotes from you that merely confirm my assertion of Dunning-Kruger.
Congratulations. So now you know more than a Cardiac surgeon.
I can only assume that the amount of brain function left in this woman matches the idiots crowing about getting a pulse back. There will have been a reason why the cardiac surgeon said that CPR should be stopped.
Keep it up Lurker, it looks ever more desperate.
Just a reminder. Some of the volunteers who you so glibly dismissed with the BASSA "it won't be safe without us" nonsense may well have previous experience in the military or security apparatus, and therefore may be infinitely better at spotting suspicious behaviour than the BASSA heart specialists. We all know BASSA have mastered the holy trick of turning wine into water. What's coming next, Brain surgeons?!
Your lack of knowledge and understanding is very apparent.
Your lack of knowledge is quite clear
I PERSONALLY CANNOT THINK OF A MORE AMAZING STORY THAN THE ONE I HAVE JUST BEEN IN. EVEN THE DR'S GAVE UP. WE DIDN'T. AND LOOK AT THE OUTCOME. WOW.
I can only assume that the amount of brain function left in this woman matches the idiots crowing about getting a pulse back. There will have been a reason why the cardiac surgeon said that CPR should be stopped.
Keep it up Lurker, it looks ever more desperate.
Just a reminder. Some of the volunteers who you so glibly dismissed with the BASSA "it won't be safe without us" nonsense may well have previous experience in the military or security apparatus, and therefore may be infinitely better at spotting suspicious behaviour than the BASSA heart specialists. We all know BASSA have mastered the holy trick of turning wine into water. What's coming next, Brain surgeons?!
Last edited by Desertia; 23rd Jan 2010 at 08:12.
Desertia,
Thank you, and yes, the rationale was that budgets had to be trimmed, and Staff Travel was no exception, except that under the new rules known as S.T. 2009, MORE people have been allowed to be included, under the " Travel Partner " umbrella, and more have been allowed 100% free trips, hence my cynicism.
To allow the few oldies to buy the occasional 90% fare, or in my case only Interline tickets, wouldn't make a scrap of difference to their bottom line.
Thank you, and yes, the rationale was that budgets had to be trimmed, and Staff Travel was no exception, except that under the new rules known as S.T. 2009, MORE people have been allowed to be included, under the " Travel Partner " umbrella, and more have been allowed 100% free trips, hence my cynicism.
To allow the few oldies to buy the occasional 90% fare, or in my case only Interline tickets, wouldn't make a scrap of difference to their bottom line.
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@ Desertia, Thank you for the heads up on Dunning-Kruger. It's very apt. Only 9am here in the UK and I've learned something new.
Makes you wonder that I and others maybe able to learn/revise our CPR and defib skills after all.
@ A Lurker, the crew should be proud of what they did and I hope they get the recognition they deserve. I can imagine it would have been quite a traumatic experience. They carried out their duties in line with their training. The same training that those volunteering to man flights, in the event of a strike will have. It's just a shame and possibly quite crass that it's being used as a political argument against people volunteering.
To those striking or considering it; all I can say is, you're in a fight for your own survival, as has often been mentioned by yourselves and BASSA. On the other side of the coin if the company goes down, which is a very real possibility, then I'll loose my job and as such my fight for survival is to try and prevent that from happening. And if that means digging out my waste coat again then so be it.
Makes you wonder that I and others maybe able to learn/revise our CPR and defib skills after all.
@ A Lurker, the crew should be proud of what they did and I hope they get the recognition they deserve. I can imagine it would have been quite a traumatic experience. They carried out their duties in line with their training. The same training that those volunteering to man flights, in the event of a strike will have. It's just a shame and possibly quite crass that it's being used as a political argument against people volunteering.
To those striking or considering it; all I can say is, you're in a fight for your own survival, as has often been mentioned by yourselves and BASSA. On the other side of the coin if the company goes down, which is a very real possibility, then I'll loose my job and as such my fight for survival is to try and prevent that from happening. And if that means digging out my waste coat again then so be it.
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Staff travel
If ST is taken away from anyone going on strike, and given that BA depends heavily on commuters for crew, then how are they going to crew aircraft, even in the short term. There's not an endless supply of bods from the office.
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Makes you wonder that I and others maybe able to learn/revise our CPR and defib skills after all.
My point was actually that if a Cardiac Surgeon tells you to stop CPR then you stop. Unless you think you know more than a cardiac surgeon.
Unlikely that a BASSA member would. I've heard of some drastic career changes, but that is not one of them.
The chances are that in the hospital she ended up in, the cardiac consultant would have done a brief examination, possibly ordered an EEG, and then written in big letters on her chart: DNR.
All of this assumes of course that you can trust the BASSA account to be the truth. Hardly a reliable source.
sussex2
But we're deep into the poker game now...
Yep, BA may well have short term difficulties in the aftermath if a significant number of "flying" commuters went on strike..., but BA don't have to plan that far ahead. OTOH those self same commuters are about to vote; they have to consider right now how they are going to get to work if they do strike and if they still have a job to commute to at the end of it...(and I reckon it's a bigger "if" for the employees than the company).
Who blinks first?
Yep, BA may well have short term difficulties in the aftermath if a significant number of "flying" commuters went on strike..., but BA don't have to plan that far ahead. OTOH those self same commuters are about to vote; they have to consider right now how they are going to get to work if they do strike and if they still have a job to commute to at the end of it...(and I reckon it's a bigger "if" for the employees than the company).
Who blinks first?
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To A Lurker
I have refrained from joining this debate previously, but A Lurker, your post suggests that only trained crew could have helped the lady on that flight and I find it insulting to the many others of us within BA who are trained in first aid, work in nursing part-time or have some level of medical training from previous experience. Each day on the ground we deal with medical emergencies also, and yes we thankfully can call for an ambulance, but we are the ones who have to deal with it initially. We've had situations where the actions of staff on the ground have saved the lives of passengers and fellow staff, but the difference is that we don't go around trying to use that fact for political gain as you seem to be doing.
As has been said, those that volunteer will have the same training in dealing with medical emergencies that you were given when you joined as crew. All crew were new to the role at some stage and it is unfair to suggest that someone that volunteers is any less capable after they have been given the CAA approved training. Just remember that some of these people might have been crew with either BA or other airlines before.
Just to add that thanks to your posts on here, I have just volunteered my services to Back BA and keep the airline flying. I was reluctant to at first, but thank you for helping me decide.
As has been said, those that volunteer will have the same training in dealing with medical emergencies that you were given when you joined as crew. All crew were new to the role at some stage and it is unfair to suggest that someone that volunteers is any less capable after they have been given the CAA approved training. Just remember that some of these people might have been crew with either BA or other airlines before.
Just to add that thanks to your posts on here, I have just volunteered my services to Back BA and keep the airline flying. I was reluctant to at first, but thank you for helping me decide.