British Airways - CC Industrial Relations Mk V

[Ten West]

I think Jean-Lill meant that Cabin Crew training can take five weeks whereas nurses take... a little longer.

SLF? In Ops (as I believe in most of aviation) we use the term "Pax" as an abbreviation of "Passengers".
"SLF" is funny the first few times, but it has the same syllable count as just saying "Passengers" so becomes pretty redundant as a TLA.

(Just for the benefit of anyone from outside the industry that thinks they're overhearing themselves described as "Pratts". As I believe some journalist or other did once)

Going back to the old perennial "Should pilots get paid more than Nurses?" question:

Yes. Nurse messes up, one person dies. Pilot messes up, several hundred die.

[SlideBustle]

I am also on the post-1997 contract and have been here a couple of years. I also do not think we are overpaid. Reasonably paid yes and it is acceptable but it is hardly a fat cat salary!! However I do understand some contracts are higher than average airlines however those crew have been here for x amount of time and that's the salary they earn.

However BA are not getting at our salary. Sure they want a new allowance structure for future crew which from what I have seen will be more like LGW levels. For me though, with the rosters I get and am happy with, I can earn about the same as a LGW crew member (if they have had a good month) Also I agree we could work harder on some trips to get our hours up - some days we work very hard and I am absolutely kn****rd after a trip and need my 15hrs, however I will not deny many trips are easy aswell.

I have seen the BA and Unite new proposals. Don't really look much different from what they both proposed last summer. I think both proposals are actually OK, however no prizes for guessing which one saves the most and which one saves the least

I personally think a move to include a performance element etc COULD be a good thing - although some of the BASSA lot will not like it at all but oh well! Not too sure on just having one onboard management grade CSM - it would work on shorthaul of course but on longhaul unless they would have 2/3 CSMs on a jumbo then that would be good. Also having CSMs (new fleet SCCM) working in the air and on the ground is quite a good idea and many airlines already do this I think. Of course there are some areas of the BA proposals that are not very good particularly Approach 2 where us on EF/WW will be working alongside new crew but working to scheme.

Can I see Unite/BASSA meeting/agreeing to BAs proposals? Not really, however in my opinion there is so much room for them to come closer to meeting halfway or meeting BA as the BA proposal is not as bad as some make out it will be (although there does need to be more guarantees for protection on current crew) But it seems UNITE just want their cake and eat three of them (maybe 5!) Their proposal is OK like wouldn't mind having the PSR on a Band 4 767 etc... but putting 4 crew back on the 319 - apart from some flights ie. CDG etc is there any need??? Plus, their proposal is full of just empty words.

Doesn't go into much detail just says things like ''better relationships for us and BA'' - how??

[henkybaby]

I think you guys are missing the point. Since we live in a capitalistic society where price drives the customer's decision it is not the question what you think you should earn, it is what your employer can afford to pay you.

Nurses are underpaid otherwise the healthcare system would grind to a halt.
Teachers are underpaid otherwise education would become too expensive.
Policemen and Firemen

Need I go on?

So, as it happens, FAs - no matter how important they are or how difficult their job is - will have to accept that airlines can no longer afford the wages they believe they should earn. You simply will not find any airline who pays you more than BA does on new contracts.

You have now joined the ranks of the aforementioned underpaid but very important professions. If you do not like it, there is always the OU.

And to add some additional perspective:

You guys can go on strike and the country will cope. Nurses can't, policemen can't, firemen can't... They have the really important jobs.

If the pilots or the engineers decided to strike, do you think BA would ask you to train for 2 weeks to take over their job? Again: some perspective please.

[Desertia]

The press are determined that their position will influence the public's view as to whether they side with the management or the workers.

Oh look, more BASSA finger pointing. "It's the PRESS's fault that people don't like us!".

Wrong, people don't like you because you're a greedy, lying, selfish bunch of overpaid prima donnas who are manipulating your overly trusting members and holding passengers to ransom in a desperate attempt at hanging on to your excessive and poor value remuneration packages.

Let's just remember that, shall we?

"The management and the workers". This is why we call it 70's style trade unionism, and it's this neanderthal line of thinking that has destroyed so many industries and companies in the UK over the years.

Let WatersideWonker put a tick in their little Yes box. And let's see if they have the cojones to strike on day one and wave goodbye to their ST forever, and survive on the 30 quid a day they may or may not get from Unite (who after all could be facing quite a legal bill).

All of this is bluster and desperation.

It's funny how we hear the BASSA excuses coming out before the press does:

The Unite union is warning moves by British Airways to recruit staff to replace cabin crew if they go on strike, could put passengers at risk.

Staff will begin voting later on whether to walkout in a row over pay, jobs and working conditions.

The warning comes after a senior crew member told LBC they resuscitated a woman on a flight on Friday - after a doctor had said it was too late - because of their skills and experience.

I would ask the moderators lift the ban on this subject from the thread, since Unite are using it to justify their claims that passengers will be "at increased risk" due to volunteers not being as good at things as BA CC are:

Unite the union today (Monday) warned that British Airways' passengers could be put at risk if strike-breaking cabin crew do not have the experience to respond to emergency situations.

As BA begins its conversion courses for staff who work elsewhere in the airline, Unite says public concern will grow over plans to fast-track strike breakers as more emerges about the skills crew need to care fully for passengers.

The warning comes as one crew member reveals that last week a passenger on a BA long haul flight would have died were it not for the intervention, calm actions and dedicated care of the crew.
One crew member on that flight reported: "I'm about to collapse after a 16 and half hour day. We had one of the most serious medical incidents I have ever seen. A lady collapsed in the aisle, full plane. After 30 mins she fitted and died. We did CPR, defib (no shock advised) PA'd for a Doctor - amazingly a heart surgeon came forward. Stabbed adrenaline into the heart. After around 20 minutess (sic) he advised us to stop, ''She's dead'' he said. We replied that we have to continue for 30 minutess (sic). Four minutes later we got a pulse! We supported her for an hour, breathing for her until she was passed to medics on the ground and is now in a hospital. As far as I know she is alive, but very seriously ill.

"Even though the doctor gave up, we didn't; look at the outcome. Imagine if strike-breakers were there today? I am sure we would have lost a fellow human being. These are the things we and the public should be worried about. It will cost lives."

Praising the actions of the crew, Len McCluskey, Unite assistant general secretary, said: "Cabin crew's dedication and skill kept a person alive when others had given up hope. BA should have nothing but praise for its loyal and dedicated cabin crew whose first and last instinct is to care for passengers.

"Instead, BA resorts to intimidating them with macho threats to replace crew with vastly inexperienced volunteers. Not only does this show contempt for the crew, what message does it send to passengers who have paid to be cared for by a premier airline?

"Airlines are run by teams, but this cynical ploy will destroy industrial relations at the company for years to come and trash this airline's brand along the way."

Unite says that at the very minimum, BA cabin crew are trained to:

1. Deliver babies
2. Administer CPR
3. Administer Epipen injections to people who go into anaphylactic shock
4. Operate the Defibrilator for people who have suffered cardiac arrest
5. Take command of a life raft in a ditching scenario
6. Deploy survival techniques
7. Fire fight
8. In search techniques when bomb threats are received
9. In restraint techniques for disruptive passengers
10. In Pilot incapacitation i.e how to deal with a pilot who becomes unconscious.


Experienced crew have three months training. The union fears that BA's 21-day training programme for strike-breakers may not result in a confident, professional crew and will not support the team working a successful crew is built upon.

Unite has condemned BA's increasingly aggressive recruitment operation as an attempt to intimidate cabin crew out of taking industrial action to defend their jobs and conditions. The ballot for industrial action opens today and will close on February 22nd.

I assume everyone will have seen the subtle edits of the original post,notably the deliberate "tidying up" of this statement:

I PERSONALLY CANNOT THINK OF A MORE AMAZING STORY THAN THE ONE I HAVE JUST BEEN IN. EVEN THE DR'S GAVE UP. WE DIDN'T. AND LOOK AT THE OUTCOME. WOW. I'M SO PROUD OF ALL OF US TODAY. IMAGINE IF OFFICE STAFF (STRIKE BREAKERS) WE'RE THERE TODAY? I'M SURE WE WOULD HAVE LOST A FELLOW HUMAN.

Notice how UNITEBA added the following words to this "story" from the BASSA member in question:

These are the things we and the public should be worried about. It will cost lives.

And you wonder why we call them LIARS!

[teddybear44]

Reliability

BA Crewboy,

Your post 3106 states that cabin crew and flight crew are by far the most reliable people in the company. Rather a sweeping and offensive statement. Based on what? You also say it is not possible for you to be late. Do road, taffic and weather conditions not affect you (or do you simply stay at home) It certainly is possible mate ! On average your attendances in terms of reporting are presumably less than others. Please have some consideration for the efforts of others.

[Dawdler]

Are crew clear as to why they are asked to strike?

As I understand it the proposed strike at Christmas was in protest at the imposition of the "one crew down" imposition by BA. (I apologise for the shorthand, but that is basically the reason). Nothing I have seen with regard to the forthcoming ballot indicates any change in that reason. Will the ballot paper contain a simple sentence to indicate to voters the reason for that ballot taking place?

I am perplexed by the anger of CC on this matter, many of whom will not have been affected by the change. It would seem that the union have another, unstated agenda, hence the ballot, which will not be completed before the hearing in the High Court as to whether the imposition was legal or not.

BASSA seem to have muddied the waters with untrue statements, (amongst other things about other unions not directly involved) which can only divert attention from the genuine reason for the vote.

It seems to me that BASSA have got themselves in a pickle over a relatively small dispute. They would be well advised to keep their powder dry for (perhaps) a bigger battle to come. This dispute is already having an effect over the whole company.

Where are BASSA hoping to be in six/seven weeks time? With a majority "Yes" vote in their hands, ample volunteers in the wings to help run the company in the event of a strike actually being held, facing off the rest of the employees of BA?

The volunteers need not necessarily be used as CC but used to replace ground staff who are already qualified to so act.

Cabin Crew would be well advised to think things through before voting and then have the moral strength to follow the path decreed by their vote. I say this because some reports indicate that those voting "Yes" appear to have a myriad of reasons to do so, whereas the stated reason remains (unless we have all be misled) simply that of the "one crew down" imposition.

What happens if the High Court Judgement is that BA's actions were legal in the first place? Where does that leave CC?

[mesmeris]

Just A Bit Grandiose..

As a customer I find some of the postings by BA CC regarding why their pay should be higher than the industry average a bit grandiose. Really now, people aren't dropping like flies on Virgin because their crew are somehow less capable or experienced. I haven't seen any indication that there is a correlation between pay of CC and customer satisfaction and safety.

It isn't rocket science... I'm just asking you to treat me, as a customer, with a little respect, help me and others get settled in for the flight and off the plane promptly, and hopefully provide food/beverages. I haven't found BA crew to be any more, or less, able than their counterparts on many other airlines in which they are paid less.

That said, before the strike over Christmas fiasco I generally tried to fly BA when possible because the seats are comfortable, flights mostly on time, and a good safety record. It wasn't because I was looking forward to BA CC as being somehow exceptionally better than their peers. Honestly, you guys don't come across as friendlier or more skilled than your competitors. Now, however, I continue to retain animosity over the stress and worry BA CC put my family through and avoid BA when possible. Until WW engages in a definitive action to eliminate the risk of further strikes it just isn't worth it to me and yes, I'm still bitter.

But perhaps by next Christmas I will have forgotten it all, wasn't that the theory of the union???? I'm hardly your only customer who feels this way and you'd best factor in your customers perspective in your calculations regarding strikes and such or your airline is going to go down the tubes.

[Golden Ticket]

Teddybear44. Pretty daft comment. Yes it is possible to be late but you wouldn't be working your rostered duty and after about three lates you would be looking at disiplinary procedures. I think what BA Crewboy was alluding to was that you can't pop in five minutes late like folk can in the office without there being repercussions. Ditto on the respect for others but that cuts all ways as there has been a lot of belittling going on here and little conversation recently about terms and conditions.

[Desertia]

Misleading the press

The same BASSA lie:

''Imagine if strike-breakers were there today? I am sure we would have lost a fellow human being. These are the things we and the public should be worried about. It will cost lives.''

has been repeated in today's Telegraph.

I wonder if any self-respecting journalist will try and follow up the outcome of this story, particularly as to whether or not there was any truth to it at all.

After all, if BASSA can lie about what was said, how can we trust the accuracy of the original story?

[spin_doctor]

Arguments that lives will be put at risk on flights with volunteers really do not stand up. The volunteers will be completing a training course to CAA approved standards, of varying length depending on their current level of knowledge and experience.

Pilots courses will be short, a full day of self study and 3 days in the classroom. This is because we already know a lot of the SEP stuff. We do SEP every year. I think we can be trusted to use a BCF on an oven fire, handle pilot incapacitation or 'take command of a life raft' without any further instruction. Why has no comment been made on the added safety benefit of having a couple of spare pilots down the back?

As for the comments that a passenger would have died without the specialist knowledge an experience that only BA crew can bring, firstly all cabin crew are trained in these procedures, so if you had a heart attack on a a virgin flight the same would apply. To suggest otherwise is offensive to other cabin crew.

Secondly lets look at the fact shall we - CPR and operating the Defib 'saved' this person (against the advice of a highly trained specialist doctor). How long does it take to learn these two skills? How much 'extra experience' do the majority of BA crew have in using the defib or administering CPR, outside of their yearly SEP refresher?

The passengers on BA flights crewed by volunteers will be safe. They may have to accept an inept and slightly amateur service, but they will not be at any risk.

[fincastle84]

Desertia

Whilst I agree that the Telegraph story is misleading I think that the medical emegency was for real. I checked the BA arrivals & the flight was 3 hours late & the final point of departure was REC & not LHR.

Like you I am very disappointed that the mods have banned the discussion as to what are the correct protocols in such a medical emergency. My wife, a fully qualified NHS ALS staff member has already written directly to both BA & the CAA to raise her concerns.

[CaptainBarbosa]

Desetia,

Wrong, people don't like you because you're a greedy, lying, selfish bunch of overpaid prima donnas who are manipulating your overly trusting members and holding passengers to ransom in a desperate attempt at hanging on to your excessive and poor value remuneration packages.

Harsh, but its a fair point, well presented, when you look at some of the main agitators for the strike.

[Desertia]

Whilst I agree that the Telegraph story is misleading I think that the medical emegency was for real. I checked the BA arrivals & the flight was 3 hours late & the final point of departure was REC & not LHR.

Fin,

I believe someone else confirmed that there was a medical emergency. That I would not necessarily dispute. However, it would be interesting to hear a trustworthy account of what happened.

As we have already seen how BASSA have added a fictitious quote to the original story and edited the words to make the original poster seem more educated, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that the truthful version of events differs significantly from the BASSA version.

As I said, it would be nice if a respected journalist would investigate further.

[Desertia]

Well here is one version of it:

Incident: British Airways B744 over Atlantic on Jan 22nd 2010, medical emergency

By Simon Hradecky, created Saturday, Jan 23rd 2010 18:23Z, last updated Saturday, Jan 23rd 2010 18:23Z

A British Airways Boeing 747-400, registration G-CIVR performing flight BA-247 (dep Jan 21st) from London Heathrow,EN (UK) to Sao Paulo Guarulhos,SP (Brazil), was enroute over the Atlantic when a female passenger (44) suffered a cardiac arrest. The passenger accompanied by her husband received first aid on board until the aircraft landed safely in Recife. Medical services resuscitated the woman after arrival and delivered her to a local hospital in a mobile high intense care unit.

The hospital was able to stabilize the passenger, who however still remains in critical condition. Doctors are still trying to determine, what caused the cardiac arrest.

The airplane was able to continue to Sao Paulo after three hours on the ground and reached Sao Paulo with a delay of 3 hours.

[StudentInDebt]

Braziilian newspaper article about this incident and here's what Google Translate thinks it says

A British Airways plane that went from London to Sao Paulo was forced to land in the Guararapes International Airport in Recife, early on Friday after passing a German to have a cardiac arrest during the flight. According to a spokesperson for the airport, Monika Derstroff, 44, was treated on site and taken into an intensive care unit (ICU) to mobile hospital Portuguese.
According to the hospital, the woman was also revived at the airport and at about 11:15 (12:15 in GMT) was in serious condition in intensive care and breathing with a ventilator. She would be accompanied by a family, but he would not have appeared at the hospital on Friday.
The airport said the flight landed at about 3 am and left the place at 6:10 (7:10 in GMT) and continued the journey. The hospital says the doctors investigating the cause of cardiac arrest.

[La Pouquelaye]

Have a search on the internet regarding the Sao Paulo

Thank you, Watersidewonker. We discussed the matter more than adequately during your recent enforced absence.

[La Pouquelaye]

Virgin is promoting the young, glamorous, catwalk appearance of its cabin crew.

Thanks for the recommendation, A Lurker.

That's yet another reason for disgruntled J-class passengers to choose ABBA and its sour-faced pro-strike flight attendants.

Virgins crew may be paid less, but their passenger service is better than BA at the moment.

According to The Times, British Airways cabin crew are paid more than double that of similar workers at Virgin Atlantic Airways.

If that is true, and I notice that you do not deny it, BA cabin crew should be twice as happy and twice as motivated as Branson's Babes.

British Airways wants to be able to have the pick of the market and select what they perceive to be the best. How do they do that? They offer a higher salary so more people apply so they can select who they want.

What's your beef with that, A Lurker? Mediocrity is definitely not good for being able to compete in the market place.

Differences begin to stack up

Yes indeed they do, A Lurker. And the customers are beginning to notice this.

The trouble is that the differences are deleterious to British Airways. Because of union misrule people no longer want to travel with an airline staffed by closet communist cabin staff.

[Desertia]

Today's news. Offered with no comment. Please spare a little thought for her and her family. She is the real tragedy here.

Germany's Monika Derstroff, 44, remains hospitalized in the ICU of Hospital Portuguese in Recife. She was brain dead after suffering a cardiac arrest during the flight of 247 British Airways in the early hours of Friday. The plane, which left Frankfurt to Sao Paulo, made an emergency landing in Recife and a mobile intensive care from the airport took the passenger to the hospital.

According to a spokesperson for the Hospital Portuguese, brain death was diagnosed, but the patient's heart continues to function. She was with her husband, Rainer Derstroff for a cruise leaving the state capital. The husband has come into contact with the insurer of the family in Germany and will probably have to wait for clinical death, in Recife, then arrange the transfer of the body for Europe.

A Lurker, would you please be so kind as to post this sad news on the forum from which you retrieved the initial report. It was quite hard to locate and they may not be aware. Thank you.

[License to Fly]

If you want to send a message to Unite that you are not happy with their actions, Google and seach for 'unite' and click on the sponsored link - they have to pay everytime someone does this and will be able to monitor our displeasure with their aggression against our national airline

[moo]

bassa latest.........

IT'S GOOD TO TALK!

Surprisingly, there actually have been some!

Last week, Unite were invited to talks with British Airways to try and resolve the dispute between us, these were held at the TUC (Trade Union Congress) Headquarters in central London.
The Unite side was led by Len McCluskey and Paul Talbot, Assistant General Secretaries, while British Airways’ was led by People Director, Tony McCarthy. TUC General Secretary, Brendan Barber, who has close ties to Government as well as both parties in this dispute, facilitated the talks.
In a positive attempt to move the situation forward we, the TU side, took the initiative and developed an initial proposal. We spent the majority of that time trying to achieve the difficult balance of protecting your future whilst, at the same time, delivering permanent cost-savings.
As yet, we have not been successful in achieving this; in fact we are not even close.
Hence, we had no other option than to commence our new ballot; the issues and concerns are still the same. There was absolutely no willingness to discuss, let alone remove the impositions that have now been in place since 16 November.
We provided British Airways with a realistic framework that would have allowed them to phase the return of the removed crew member to ALL fleets over a three month period, alongside a plan to achieve permanent and comprehensive savings over the short, medium and long-term.
Our comprehensive proposal was dismissed with a one line response.
We want to reassure you that we will of course continue to talk throughout the duration of the ballot. We will do all we can to try and ensure that you do not have to take part in industrial action, if we do it will only be because British Airways has refused to compromise and has no desire to reach an agreement, leaving us no other alternative.
In the spirit of openness and to show that we have nothing to hide, we provide you with both British Airways’ and Unites’ initial proposals for your reference; they are both reasonably self-explanatory.
Initial proposals from both Unite and British Airways - aimed at finding a long term resolution to our dispute at talks with the TUC last week - are available for you to view by clicking on the links at the end of this article.
It is important to point out that the British Airways booklet fails to address any of the items we are currently in dispute over and is in reality a PR document, designed to sell their longer term strategy to introduce “new fleet” as a solution and way for you to keep your terms and conditions.
We suggest you read it carefully, along with the concessions that they say you would have to make, for them to accept our alternative and longer term ‘integrated crew’ approach. These concessions would not be necessary at all; they are simply a “precondition” applied by the company because they say they are, not for any legitimate reason.
Talks will continue during our ballot in an attempt to find a resolution to our dispute. We will not place any pre-conditions on possible solutions; we will examine all options including integrated crew / new fleet - if they allow for the removal of impositions.
You will see quite clearly that our position is both reasonable and realistic and has been prepared in a thoughtful, constructive and professional manner.
Despite BA’s massive provocation in drafting in other staff to try and break our dispute, we still wish to seek a resolution through negotiation. Industrial action is always a last resort but rest assured, one we will use to defend you if necessary and in a way that will minimize any so called ‘contingency plan’.
We urge Mr Walsh to truly put both you and our customers first and reach an agreement that prevents the risk of damaging our airline just to prove a point - it’s just not worth it.
As you will already be aware our union has taken the decision not to disrupt people’s Easter travel plans if we reluctantly have to take industrial action.
We are your union, you make the decisions.