British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[TwoRoles]

Henky,

That's really great you have a shiny Gold Card and good for you & I appreciate you will see things your way.... all very reasonable and respectful. May I ask how many fellow gold card holders do you know... and more importantly regularly (daily) converse with?

also,

Have you flown in Club on a full Hi-J 747 aircraft or a 3 class 777 and if so how did your experience differ from before 16th November?

[Desertia]

Interesting to note that as predicted, Monday's Sandown get together is CLOSED to the media. No surprise there. I expect BA have already placed the mikes and cameras anyway <heh>

This from yesterday's Grauniad. Would seem to indicate, Fume, that Willie is not "caving in", so that's one option gone.

British Airways is braced for the announcement of a cabin crew walkout on Monday after a meeting between the airline's chief executive, Willie Walsh, and the leadership of the Unite union failed to produce an agreement.

BA confirmed that Walsh met the joint general secretaries of Unite, Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson, ahead of the announcement of a strike ballot next week. More than 12,000 Unite-affiliated cabin crew are expected to vote in favour of industrial action that could start as soon as 21 December and will bring the airline to a standstill in the run-up to Christmas.

A BA spokesman said: "I can confirm that a meeting took place." A source with knowledge of the discussions said Walsh insisted on pushing through changes that include removing one crew member from long-haul flights and a two-year pay freeze. "BA's intention seems to be to sit out the strike," said the source.

BA refused to comment on the discussions or confirm which side initiated the meeting at BA's headquarters outside Heathrow airport. "We are not going to divulge the details of a private meeting or the circumstances leading up to it."

Analysts have estimated that a two-day strike would cost BA around £50m in lost revenues and refunds, although Unite could set longer strike dates in an attempt to seek greater leverage during negotiations, and some crew are expecting a strike to last longer than 48 hours.

The last dispute between the company and its cabin crew cost the airline £80m after an 11th-hour deal over pay came too late for passengers who had sought refunds or re-booked with rival airlines.

The removal of cabin crew from flights is the subject of a Unite legal challenge that will be heard in February next year. BA claims that the changes are not contractual and Unite failed to secure an injunction against them last month, allowing the airline to push through the changes. However, if Unite wins the case in February it will seek compensation payments from BA that it claims will run into millions of pounds.

The union harbours concerns that a plan to recruit new cabin crew on new pay terms and contractual conditions will result in BA forming a "mini-airline" that will, ultimately, become the core of the company. BA denies that the "new fleet" proposal is a Trojan horse for phasing out the original cabin crew workforce. However, the plans remain the biggest obstacle to both sides achieving a deal

Walsh is adamant that changes are necessary at the airline because it is losing £1.6m a day in what he has described as a "fight for survival". BA recorded a pre-tax loss of £401m last year and analysts expect the national carrier to lose around £600m this year.

Highly profitable business class revenues and bookings have plummeted in the wake of the banking crisis and Walsh believes that long-haul carriers have to restructure because their business models are now fundamentally out of kilter with their cost bases. Long-haul premium bookings registered a slight recovery in October, but Walsh told the Guardian last month that a sustained recovery is far from visible. "Things have stopped getting worse but we are not turning the corner," he said.

[deeceethree]

TwoRoles,

Negotiated settlement is all we want too!!!

That can't be true! BASSA/Unite had months and months to do that ..... and didn't! BASSA have only ever be interested in keeping Ts & Cs as they stand, particularly where it benefited the more senior, LHR crew. This thread is awash with examples of the tantrums and storming-outs and not-sitting-in-the-same-room-as-them antics that BASSA believes qualifies as negotiation - it isn't! Deadlines have been clearly signposted, have come and gone (more than once!), but BASSA just didn't get it. Too late now. The chances of real negotiation are past - BASSA/Unite can now only hope for some back-pedalling compromise .... at best. I'm not sure BA will give them that chance.

biteme,

Some of us want to protect our future and are doing it our way.

Your way, eh? So your way, now that BASSA/Unite's bluff has been called, is to jeopardise eveyone else's job in the company? Charming! But that is why you will get very little sympathy from those that place deeply questioning posts about BASSA/Unite's antics on this thread. If that is unpalatable, then BASSA/Unite should have thought about cause and consequence long before it entered the arena ...... but again, it didn't.

[Fume Event]

Let's see how long Willie can sit out a strike with 25,000 people arriving at T5 every day for their flights and no way to disperse them.

It seems that the whole future of British Airways now rests with its cabin crew. Walsh is prepared to ruin the airline just to neuter a cabin crew union. Did the whole financial viability of BA rest on the difference between concession made by the union and rejected by Walsh, or his imposition?

He chose imposition which was inevitably going to end in confrontation as surely as night followed day. That was his choice. He has sown the wind and now he will reap the whirlwind.

[henkybaby]

That's really great you have a shiny Gold Card and good for you & I appreciate you will see things your way.... all very reasonable and respectful. May I ask how many fellow gold card holders do you know... and more importantly regularly (daily) converse with?

also,

Have you flown in Club on a full Hi-J 747 aircraft or a 3 class 777 and if so how did your experience differ from before 16th November?

Hi TwoRoles and thank you for asking.

The GC represents my loyalty to the company, not a status symbol. I also appreciate you will see things your way. The inability of both sides to see it other people's way is the core of this problem.

I know several dozens if not over a hundred other GCH or other frequent BA flyers (either with AA/QF FFPs or Silvers/GGL), many of which I converse with weekly, either in person or online.

I have flown Hi-J several times since 16/11 (UD only) and I have had bad service and excellent service (not depending on load factor!). Very much like before 16/11. I have always observed that the quality of the service depends on the attitude of the CSD. Whether in F or in J it where always the enthusiastic and happy CSDs that made for a great flight. I think that is the same after the change.

I am not against IA in principle. I feel that maybe there is a win-win out there somewhere. However the current attitude of the union will harden the conflict. WW has public sympathy at the moment because of BASS/Unite's actions. That is almost a 180 degree shift in public opinion to before the threat of striking over x-mass. I do not think that you helped yourself there. Awaiting the court case would have been a better move I think. WW also very skillfully played public opinion by announcing for months that BA is doing very badly. It now seems like the unions are running BA into the ground. It does not matter if it is true, it is public opinion.

Also the layoffs at competitors make that the public does not sympathize with BA CC at the moment. It happens everywhere and BA staff are well paid compared to the competition and have an equally tough job. Again, not helping the issue.

So, however sympathetic I stand towards the rights of workers I believe there are some serious errors in judgement. It seems like BASSA/Unite have painted themselves in a corner and can no longer be reasonable. I can only hope that a likely yes-vote will not lead to an announcement for a pre-xmass or holiday period strike but to a more customer friendly sort of IA.

If you all decide to ruin people's xmass I don't think most of us (your customers) would mind if WW went all the way with you. Remember Swissair? A new BA with all staff in newfleet and no more pension fund deficit would really be the best option.

Once again: I am not against the right of workers to strike. However, do not claim it is on my behalf or that my experience onboard entitles you to strike. Do not make this about the customer...

[Desertia]

Let's see how long Willie can sit out a strike with 25,000 people arriving at T5 every day for their flights and no way to disperse them.

Out of interest, with a reduced number of aircraft and passengers compared to this time, say, two years ago, exactly how many CC does BA require to operate those flights?

And how many will not be on strike (all the non union members for a start).

Fume, it might be more of a sort of small, wet fart.

[deeceethree]

He chose imposition which was inevitably going to end in confrontation as surely as night followed day. That was his choice. He has sown the wind and now he will reap the whirlwind.

No, I believe that it was BASSA/Unite who chose imposition ...... by not being open to real negotiation. That was their choice, and yours, apparently?

Just remember, every day that every striker is out on the picket or withholding labour, those strikers are not being paid any salary at all (not something that BASSA/Unite have been clear with their membership about)! Looking forward to hearing how all those strikers will survive on £30 a day from Unite - mortgages and posh car payments to still have to be met! Also looking forward to hearing how long Unite will be able to afford paying that to strikers - either Unite's coffers will quickly dry up, or it won't be that much money, as the strikers will be relatively few in number and/or give up quickly. I seriously suspect that Unite has more interest in the loss of 1700 jobs at Corus than it does in precious BASSA attempting to raise a ruckus about working one crew-member down!

I am still not sure that there will be a strike at all, but I think I know who can weather strike action the longest.

[winstonsmith]

No doubt BA will sit out the strike. BA won't come crawling to UNITE and stand on ceremony for them. Sooner or later the striking crew will come back to work ashamed over their behaviour.

Either way - it's a win-win situation for BA.

If it goes to an actual strike - the costs involved will be added to IFCEs savings which could include pretty much everything - less crew, shorter layovers - use your imagination - BA wins!

If it does not go to a strike - Miss Malone and her lovely brigade will be ashamed of having let down their members and making themselves public fools. BA wins.

If UNITE wins their case and forces BA to re-instate previous crewing levels they would need to recruit cabin crew - on new lovely contracts - which UNITE probably has not even thought about. BA wins. Good luck to those crew who will be claiming to get a payment for every flight which they have been operating since the day of imposition - good luck to you!

If UNITE loses their case, BA wins and can do pretty much what they like - put together their own lovely salad at the cheapest price.

[SlideBustle]

New post on one of the other forums is that bassa should make all no voters aware if they break a strike we should resign from the union or will BE THROWN OUT!!

Surely a Union should be able to exist listening to ALL views of members and exists for all it's members, not members having to exist for the senior union peeps. It's a democracy and if I want to be a member of a union, yet I don't want to strike, then surely I should be able to. If there was another Union for cabin crew at BA then I would leave BASSA then join the other one, as I wouldn't really want to be non-unionised - I don't like the way they deal with these disputes, but I wouldn't leave as I don't want to be non-protected for everyday issues for example.#

SOME Bassa militants posts are nothing short of intimidation. I don't want to mention names but if crew want to vote NO and come to work on a strike, then we should be able to without fear of intimidation. The only thing I fear is if people do know who came to work we will be interrogated after the strike onboard!

[dave747436]

Interesting question implied a few posts ago.....

How many non-union cabin crew are there that (we can assume?) will come to work?

[Desertia]

New post on one of the other forums is that bassa should make all no voters aware if they break a strike we should resign from the union or will BE THROWN OUT!!

I think you'll find that covered in Post 4551 (P228).

[martin102]

Service levels

TwoRoles

Yes I travelled to JFK in club last weekend on a 747. Apart from the CSD announcing on the way out that she was "multi-tasking" as she was also in charge of the downstairs club section, I didnt see any change in service levels. Service took the usual time.

[Andy_S]

Has anyone else noticed the similarity between posts by Fume Event and TwoRoles? For example:

Originally Posted by Fume Event

Regarding the imposition, naturally this becomes a big issue on a full flight with other problems thrown in. The worst aircraft and configs are the 777 three class with ten crew and the High J 747's.

Originally Posted by TwoRoles

Have you flown in Club on a full Hi-J 747 aircraft or a 3 class 777 and if so how did your experience differ from before 16th November?

Were the posts from the same person, perpetuating an argument, then they would have been deleted, and the multiple-personality owner made aware of the need to choose but one voice, (once their ban period was up of course. Or we would choose for them, most often by removing both from the site.) That has not happened.

ALL the moderators on this site are more than aware of the occasions where people try to keep an argument going by registering multiple personalities; it happens at least once every week. Similarities in argument do not necessarily mean they come from the same people. You are right to point it out, but as mentioned before, the moderating is for the moderators.

Thank you. The Mods.

[finncapt]

Andy S

I am inclined to agree with you but I have also noticed similarities in style with Leo Hairy Camel in the Ryanair postings.

Perhaps their agenda is not what it seems.

[52049er]

Is it really BASSA's view that we should have on board every long haul flight a member of staff just in case the IFE fails or there is a medical issue, and playing no role in the service?

Conservatively estimating a salary & costs of £50 000 a year, we would have to sell £750 000 worth of tickets (at a 6 - 7 % profit margin) to pay for them just in case the IFE needs resetting?

I've now done about 12 LH flights since the changes, some chokka, some not. The only 'difficulties' in service has been on those when the CSD has warned us before the flight that they are now working 'one down'. Those when the CSD has just got on with their job as a professional have gone without a hitch. What conclusions do we draw from that?

[Desertia]

The only 'difficulties' in service has been on those when the CSD has warned us before the flight that they are now working 'one down'. Those when the CSD has just got on with their job as a professional have gone without a hitch. What conclusions do we draw from that?

That the CSDs in question are lazy, are incompetent, or want to try and show that this particular imposition doesn't work by sabotaging the service? (To name but three).

[TopBunk]

Back on post #4285 I suggested:

That however is rather different to a union getting a 60% 'Yes' return on a 70% turnout, ie the same 42% mandate. If that is what BASSA get, then I would be very surprised if they pushed the nuclear self-destruct button, as that is surely what it would be with such poor support. No, I fully expect BASSA to either:

(1) call off the ballot this week (if they feel they will not get the required support (15% probability), or
(2) get the result in the region of 60-80% in favour (by those who bother to vote) and claim it is not enough to strike with and call for talks (50% probability), or
(3) get an 80-90% vote in favour (as above) and call a strike, which BA will then successfully get a court injuction preventing (25% probability), or
(4) as (3) above and BA let BASSA strike and the strike collapses within 24 hours (10% probability).

OK, so #1 is looking unlikely now, as the 14th is on Monday, and the meeting this last week between Unite and BA was fruitless, so how about a straw poll about the perceived likely result, just to break up the tension here?

I vote 3

[TopBunk]

From elsewhere, a quote attributed to Willie Walsh

Earlier today, Tony McCarthy and I met with the Unite joint general secretaries, Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson.

The meeting was arranged at their request and we talked about all the issues that stand between us. Unfortunately, no conclusion was reached and we now await the outcome of their ballot on Monday.

At the meeting, we drew to the union’s attention a possible flaw in their ballot process. There are legal obligations that Unite must comply with running a strike ballot. If they have not complied with the requirements of the law and make a call for strike action based on a flawed ballot, Unite would be liable for our damages and their members would not be protected.

We hope Unite will consider its actions carefully and not put our customers’ travel plans and our cabin crew at risk.

[biteme]

Some of the users on this forum have no understanding of the CSD role.

To think that all we do is is reset AVOD and have no part in the service illustrates how out of touch they are.

I know some cabin crew who think the flight crew press a button to takeoff and another to land.

I would defend the flight crew and explain what really goes on behind the door.
I take time to work with my flight crew so I can understand what pressure the have at work under.

I would expect the same in return from the cynical few on here.

I have given my feelings on the issues within BA as I see them.

I will step out of this forum as it serves no purpose other than bashing hard working cabin crew.

Goodbye and good luck to everyone.

[Locked door]

So what did the CSD do before the new crewing levels?

I know the good ones mucked in with the service as and when needed, often calling in the hourly checks from door 4L.

The other (lazy) ones? Not a lot. Certainly not £60k per annum's amount of work.