British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't fancy being one of BA's passengers after the new service routines are introduced, reading the CF it appears the cabin crew will be doing their best to prove that they don't work, to the detriment of our passengers, those that are left that is. Good Job Guys!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Age: 48
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why would WW need to sack anyone and potentially expose the company to potential employment tribunal liabilities? Haven't BA already gone through the full HR process for the compulsory redundacy of up to 2000 cabin crew. Surely he will just action that process, offering the minimum statutory redundancy pay and choosing who (or what rank) is made redundant?
I remain convinced some will be sacked on day 1 of a strike. With VR removed, staff travel removed, and voluntary redundancy replaced with compulsory any strike will be short lived. Add to that the realisation that crew will not be paid by the company (some still don't realise this) and the waverers will vote to save their earnings. No amount of tub thumping will make crew vote for their own demise.
I remain convinced some will be sacked on day 1 of a strike. With VR removed, staff travel removed, and voluntary redundancy replaced with compulsory any strike will be short lived. Add to that the realisation that crew will not be paid by the company (some still don't realise this) and the waverers will vote to save their earnings. No amount of tub thumping will make crew vote for their own demise.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Europe
Age: 56
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread is a poison pool. The usual suspects here still going on about BA's cabin crew facing dismissal, tribunals etc. Just a load of rubbish and the same old stuff now for over a year.
When the yes vote comes in, Walsh wont have an airline. He couldn't even deal with the opening of T5. Loads of flights the other day were delayed because of one aircraft arriving from EWR with 6 collapsed passengers. It will be mayhem and the government will have to step in as Walsh will not back down. His career is on the line now and the current government are not going to stand by and see him wreck BA like he has Aer Lingus.
The Board had better realise they have picked a duffer in Walsh and he needs to go.
When the yes vote comes in, Walsh wont have an airline. He couldn't even deal with the opening of T5. Loads of flights the other day were delayed because of one aircraft arriving from EWR with 6 collapsed passengers. It will be mayhem and the government will have to step in as Walsh will not back down. His career is on the line now and the current government are not going to stand by and see him wreck BA like he has Aer Lingus.
The Board had better realise they have picked a duffer in Walsh and he needs to go.
This isn't about personalities, its about numbers that don't add up, until they do cut backs will happen.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: LONDON
Age: 44
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DA DOG Did I say anything about having you hauled into court? Don't think so.
I'm back on here to tease and torment you because I now know the majority of you are waterside suits.
I'm not going anywhere after all with all the hot air on here why should I?
I'm back on here to tease and torment you because I now know the majority of you are waterside suits.
I'm not going anywhere after all with all the hot air on here why should I?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 35,000 ft
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA have given out a lot of unpaid leave for December. Of course the Unite ballot timed for December could now make BA retract that unpaid leave.
That will focus people's minds on voting NO for strike action.
That will focus people's minds on voting NO for strike action.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: france
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The law is clear that an employer has the right to sack workers for going on strike having followed the correct procedures.They cannot however reinstate on a selective basis.
Sickies fall under AMP "pattern sickness" which is also sackable.
Sickies fall under AMP "pattern sickness" which is also sackable.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SALISBURY
Age: 76
Posts: 706
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're getting unpaid leave because no one will book with BA while there is the threat of a strike. Virgin love you all to bits! If you're lucky they'll offer you a job in a few years' time.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flyingchick,
The "VERY GOOD CAUSE" is breach of contract. You will be doing that by going on strike, whether it's legal or not. Those are the grounds you would be dismissed for. The legality would be dealt with later and there is no guarantee of reinstatement.
Get your head out of your @rse and recognise we are trying to give you the advice which your union should be giving you.
Why do I get a feeling I don't believe any of you. Suddenly we have someone who can sack people left, right and centre?? I think you should know it is very very hard to just dismiss someone without VERY GOOD CAUSE!!!!
Get your head out of your @rse and recognise we are trying to give you the advice which your union should be giving you.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mandyconn
I'm back on here to tease and torment you because I now know the majority of you are waterside suits.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tunbridge Wells
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am finding it so hard to believe that some of the posters on this thread are actual crew of BA - the sheer vitriol and nastiness seems totally at odds to my experience of working as one team onboard. I'm wondering if some of you just have this virtual personality, where you sit hunched over your laptops, cackling away as you compose your next round of "bon mots" - I suspect your online personas are vastly different from the real ones
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even MOL came on the telly today to slag off BA crew. What has it got to do with him? Why does he feel he has the authority to give advice to other CEO's on how to deal with their industrial relations problems? MOL, the aviation industry's Gerald Ratner.
Anyway, what has got lost here amongst all the diatribe about what is going to happen to BA's crew is the plain fact that this dispute is only, and all, about imposition.
The ruling this Thursday will be a watershed, a landmark. All of the UK's employers will be watching this very closely. If Walsh can get away with imposing new T&C's on his contracted employees, then many other companies will follow suit. An employment contract will not be worth the paper it is written on.
And don't forget my dear BA pilot friends, you will be next on the list to get shafted. So take some advice, wind yor necks in and pray that BA's cabin crew win this. Don't forget there are pilots in the US flying jets for U$16,000 a year. Your fears about OpenSkies will become a reality - welcome to BA's Jetstar.
Anyway, what has got lost here amongst all the diatribe about what is going to happen to BA's crew is the plain fact that this dispute is only, and all, about imposition.
The ruling this Thursday will be a watershed, a landmark. All of the UK's employers will be watching this very closely. If Walsh can get away with imposing new T&C's on his contracted employees, then many other companies will follow suit. An employment contract will not be worth the paper it is written on.
And don't forget my dear BA pilot friends, you will be next on the list to get shafted. So take some advice, wind yor necks in and pray that BA's cabin crew win this. Don't forget there are pilots in the US flying jets for U$16,000 a year. Your fears about OpenSkies will become a reality - welcome to BA's Jetstar.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fume Event,
Sadly in your 'your next' edict you forgot to mention the legally ratified SCOPE clause that protects the pilots operating out of the UK.
Shame BASSA haven't agreed anything like that for the CC so, keep this about the CC shall we.
Sadly in your 'your next' edict you forgot to mention the legally ratified SCOPE clause that protects the pilots operating out of the UK.
Shame BASSA haven't agreed anything like that for the CC so, keep this about the CC shall we.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: LGW
Posts: 595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two points:
1. Some people don't want to see/hear the truth. They're a lost cause, we can only concentrate on the people who are willing to listen to various sources and thinking for themselves.
2. There seems to be a competition on CF to sign in here and try to get banned. Very mature.... It's as if a banning is some kind of bravery medal. It's these people I can't be bothered with. If they want to "follow the leader" into oblivion and dole queue, then let them. As long as I can keep my job as well as the other thousands of people who appreciate the job they have, I don't particularly care about these silly sods.
Harsh, but true.
Gg
1. Some people don't want to see/hear the truth. They're a lost cause, we can only concentrate on the people who are willing to listen to various sources and thinking for themselves.
2. There seems to be a competition on CF to sign in here and try to get banned. Very mature...
. It's as if a banning is some kind of bravery medal. It's these people I can't be bothered with. If they want to "follow the leader" into oblivion and dole queue, then let them. As long as I can keep my job as well as the other thousands of people who appreciate the job they have, I don't particularly care about these silly sods. Harsh, but true.
Gg
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think GS Alpha that you are completely wrong and you will eat your words if the strike goes ahead.
This is no little army that turned up yesterday. In his union days Walsh never commanded such power, but he obvously played his hand quite well as a rep, otherwise he wouldn't have been invited into management.
The fatal mistake that Walsh has made is to believe his managers that everything is under control, that the crew haven't got the 'stomach' for a fight. His managers let him down over T5 and history is now repeating itself.
When the yes vote comes in, he can look into the abyss. There is no bluff to call, this is it. The strike will go ahead and I expect it will be all out, a fight to the death. Ever since Walsh was appointed we have been expecting this. We are ready and very determined.
This is no little army that turned up yesterday. In his union days Walsh never commanded such power, but he obvously played his hand quite well as a rep, otherwise he wouldn't have been invited into management.
The fatal mistake that Walsh has made is to believe his managers that everything is under control, that the crew haven't got the 'stomach' for a fight. His managers let him down over T5 and history is now repeating itself.
When the yes vote comes in, he can look into the abyss. There is no bluff to call, this is it. The strike will go ahead and I expect it will be all out, a fight to the death. Ever since Walsh was appointed we have been expecting this. We are ready and very determined.
PPRuNe Person
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: see roster
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fume Event, you spout untruths, BA management stood up in the High Court and promised not to break our Scope clause. The one negotiated with BALPA. That is nothing to do with this thread. The pilots and engineers have settled with BA, we're just watching now to see what happens.
I won't be praying for a cabin crew victory, I hope that your department makes the savings the company require you to, just like all the other departments.
Mandyconn, you've only been on PPRuNe 5 minutes and you can divine who works at Waterside? On an anonymous forum?
I won't be praying for a cabin crew victory, I hope that your department makes the savings the company require you to, just like all the other departments.
Mandyconn, you've only been on PPRuNe 5 minutes and you can divine who works at Waterside? On an anonymous forum?
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly Human Factor. That is why Walsh has had very little success closing the deal with IBERIA. He has failed to cement the alliance with American Airilnes. He presided over a disaster with the opening of T5. He has wasted millions on OpenSkies and whilst cutting the product in Club out of LHR, he starts a bespoke service to JFK out of LCY. You couldn't make it up.
In fact his one and only success has been to unify the two cabin crew unions and through his timing of the imposition, has ensured mayhem over Christmas. Brilliant!
No Top Bunk. Not trolling just angry. Off to bed now
In fact his one and only success has been to unify the two cabin crew unions and through his timing of the imposition, has ensured mayhem over Christmas. Brilliant!
No Top Bunk. Not trolling just angry. Off to bed now
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dublin
Age: 65
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fume Event #2616
The Board had better realise they have picked a duffer in Walsh and he needs to go.
So, my question is: if you don't think Walsh is the right person to be CEO of BA, who is? What I'm interested to know is which person do you rate to do the job? Which other airline CEO would you hire to replace Walsh, and why do you think they'd do a better job? Or do you feel there is nobody in the airline business capable of doing the job? In which case which CEOs from other industries do you rate and feel would gain the support of diverse professionals in BA? I assume you would not hire someone to their first PLC CEO position to run BA?
I don't have an agenda here. I'm genuinely curious as to who you think would run BA well, and why you think it. What do you think they'd do differently to Walsh in future (ie don't give a rerun of T5, price fixing etc which are all ancient history now).
What arouses my curiosity is that I fear a large number of people are judging Walsh against some theoretcial vision of paradise on Earth, whereas the reality is you have to choose from a (small) group of fallible humans to run the company. So, which of the fallible humans do you prefer to Walsh, and why?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This thread needs a time-out...
I apologise that I can't remember who exactly posted this one, but I thought it would be of marginal use to some of you to know of some experience I have of this area. Directly.
- In this financial crisis since 2007, more than 60% of the (large) group of people I started work with (in a career change a number of years ago to a large global firm) have been laid off from their present job.
- Of those, all except one were made redundant on the spot and left that day (all UK contracts), not due to incompetence or malfeasance, but simply due to them being an excess head.
- The other was lucky enough to be at a company that respected the process of looking for another internal job, and setting them up for life outside the company post-redundancy.
- Statutory compensation for loss of position was minimal
- Corporate lawyers were funded by the company(!) to discuss settlement agreements - no problems were found to my knowledge
- Two females of this set kicked up a fuss, planning to use the sexism route (as it financially impacted them - they used it unashamadly as a strategy). One obtained one month's extra salary, and the other was shown the door.
- Most processes followed a "get rid of everyone at that level" or "get rid of that group - we're not in that business any more" strategy, which due to the nature of the industry resulted in a targetted dismissal of people of a certain age. This did not stop the processes.
- c.5 were laid off as their firms went bust
- c.15 were laid off having been longstanding employees
- c.80 were laid off in one cohort on the same day. Instantly.
- None succeeded (so far) with any legal claims...I have heard a lot of emotion over the past two years
Employees can be made redundant for any reason. I could make this up...but why would I bother...it is the law in the UK.
May I (cheekily) ask if your friend with a first in employment law is (a) a qualified solicitor, (b) practising, or (c) experienced in practical law in any way? I suspect not, for many reasons.
Note that UK law is set out here: Employment Rights Act 1996 (c. 18)
Note also that contracts and settlements with employees override statute in many circumstances.
Be wary of bad legal advice.
Why do I get a feeling I don't believe any of you. Suddenly we have someone who can sack people left, right and centre?? I think you should know it is very very hard to just dismiss someone without VERY GOOD CAUSE!!!!
- In this financial crisis since 2007, more than 60% of the (large) group of people I started work with (in a career change a number of years ago to a large global firm) have been laid off from their present job.
- Of those, all except one were made redundant on the spot and left that day (all UK contracts), not due to incompetence or malfeasance, but simply due to them being an excess head.
- The other was lucky enough to be at a company that respected the process of looking for another internal job, and setting them up for life outside the company post-redundancy.
- Statutory compensation for loss of position was minimal
- Corporate lawyers were funded by the company(!) to discuss settlement agreements - no problems were found to my knowledge
- Two females of this set kicked up a fuss, planning to use the sexism route (as it financially impacted them - they used it unashamadly as a strategy). One obtained one month's extra salary, and the other was shown the door.
- Most processes followed a "get rid of everyone at that level" or "get rid of that group - we're not in that business any more" strategy, which due to the nature of the industry resulted in a targetted dismissal of people of a certain age. This did not stop the processes.
- c.5 were laid off as their firms went bust
- c.15 were laid off having been longstanding employees
- c.80 were laid off in one cohort on the same day. Instantly.
- None succeeded (so far) with any legal claims...I have heard a lot of emotion over the past two years
Employees can be made redundant for any reason. I could make this up...but why would I bother...it is the law in the UK.
May I (cheekily) ask if your friend with a first in employment law is (a) a qualified solicitor, (b) practising, or (c) experienced in practical law in any way? I suspect not, for many reasons.
Note that UK law is set out here: Employment Rights Act 1996 (c. 18)
Note also that contracts and settlements with employees override statute in many circumstances.
Be wary of bad legal advice.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 3rd Nov 2009 at 23:18.