British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[A Lurker]

Human Factor

Yes if they feel they have a case I think they will - as I have always maintained I hope that a settlement can be agreed before the need for IA

Right I'm off to bed (before anyone accuses me of not answering a question!!!)

[henkybaby]

Alurker

What questions am I ignoring now?

There have been a lot over the last couple of days, but let me start with a very straight forward one.

Suppose that BASSA calls a strike on Monday for 21, 22 and 23 of December and BA fails to get an injunction, do you then feel that ruining xmass and the holiday season for so many people is just?

Do not say that it is BA who forced this upon you. You can also strike after January 6th or find other forms of IA that have a lesser effect on the public.

(More later, lets start here first).

To give something back: I agree that sometimes a strike is the only way to make management listen.

[A Lurker]

henkybaby

Quote

"Suppose that BASSA calls a strike on Monday for 21, 22 and 23 of December and BA fails to get an injunction, do you then feel that ruining xmass and the holiday season for so many people is just?"

I would feel very sorry for all customers inconvenienced on those days - I would however feel more sorry for my three kids for the rest of my working career as my money drops and I am unable to maintain their lifestyle, as do my own opportunities for promotion and transfer and my terms and conditions on an agreed contract where broken by my employer.

I am deffo off to bed now

bye

[HiFlyer14]

Lurker - you and I read this forum, many do not. Are you telling me that every single member of the Union is aware that one small minor miniscule mistake from the Union (who are utterly perfect of course) could mean that if they strike, they can be sacked?

They are not aware of it, they think they are safe, and they are not. They are placing their trust in a Union that is quite frankly untrustworthy, so they shouldn't. Because they WILL QUITE POSSIBLY LOSE THEIR JOBS IF THEY DO.

Now, whilst I agree that the quote has yet to be validated, actually the fact still remains: IF the Union have committed any flaw in the ballot, and we can name several possible ones on here alone, then THE MEMBERS ARE NOT PROTECTED.

So, who's still BASSA 100%?

I am BA cabin crew and the above represents my own view, and not that of BA.

[deeceethree]

A Lurker,

For the ballot to be deemed 'illegal' BA would have to contest it prior to IA taking place.

That is not what the quote from Willie Walsh stated (if in fact it is a quote from WW). Read it again, carefully:

If they have not complied with the requirements of the law and make a call for strike action based on a flawed ballot, Unite would be liable for our damages and their members would not be protected.

So,BA are wating for a call for strike action based on a flawed ballot. Will BA contest it prior to the ballot? I don't think so, but it would appear a warning shot has been fired across the bows of the union. BA will wait for BASSA and/or Unite to make that call ..... if they dare. The union better have all it's ducks in a neat row before doing so.

And as for this?

I would however feel more sorry for my three kids for the rest of my working career as my money drops and I am unable to maintain their lifestyle,

BA doesn't owe you, your children, or anyone else a 'lifestyle' - that is just the way of the world! It is disingenuous for you to use the example of your children to suggest otherwise.

[henkybaby]

Good morning ALurker

Quote

"Suppose that BASSA calls a strike on Monday for 21, 22 and 23 of December and BA fails to get an injunction, do you then feel that ruining xmass and the holiday season for so many people is just?"

I would feel very sorry for all customers inconvenienced on those days - I would however feel more sorry for my three kids for the rest of my working career as my money drops and I am unable to maintain their lifestyle, as do my own opportunities for promotion and transfer and my terms and conditions on an agreed contract where broken by my employer.

End Quote

You failed to take the second part of my question into account, so let me rephrase.

If a strike is inevitable, would you prefer a strike during the holiday season, hurting many passengers who have no stake in your conflict or would you prefer a strike or milder IA after new years?

(I seriously hope that you will still have a contract after a strike. Remember Swissair? BA has everything to win by either a bankruptcy and a restart or even a very expensive victory over BASSA. The only thing not an option is to give in. Besides, they don't need to.)

EDIT: Any other pro strike BA CC is courteously invited to answer the same question!

EDIT 2: Most likely I have not been paying attention. I understood that the indignation is with the execution of a reduction in cabin crew on long haul flights ex LHR not leading to layoffs. Since this cannot effect your income I must be missing something. Can you please explain what part of the plans immediately affects you personally (and of course your kids) and how?

The Unite stand:

Working hours will be extended, crew levels will be slashed, career opportunities will disappear and new starters will be brought in on bargain basement wages. Unite says this will inevitably damage customer service and hit the brand, possibly leaving it beyond repair.

So is it about your future career opportunities? Should I go on strike if yet another management layer is abolished in my company because it cuts off a career path? We would all grind to a halt! Don't tell me we all need to have our x mass ruined because a management layer is thinned out...

If Unite is worried about customer service they should maybe ask passengers to strike since that affects them (e.g. me). Personally I think the latter is just an excuse. I don't think your money will drop actually now, this minute, does it? Again, how does this really affect you in the here and now besides working harder? (Honest question!)

[dave747436]

ALurker

One of your 'mates' who sits at the front - working it out - is he a specialist in Industrial Relations now? Oh yes I forgot - once you learned how to fly an airplane - you automatically know everything else in the world don't you?

ALurker,

By having a completely unnecessary pop at the pilots in your post you undermine your position and any validity of your argument.

Henky said:

..or find other forms of IA..

Well, Henky.
They could work to rule?
Refusing to do anything outside their agreements without extra payment?

Oh, hang on........

[Desertia]

Possible scenarios if the legality of the ballot is in doubt:

(1) BASSA delay IA until the New Year, and then try and convince the public they've done it because they care about their passengers and didn't want to ruin their Xmas.

Easily seen through.

(2) BASSA have to reballot because they made a mistake the first time, delaying the process to the point where they might as well wait until Feb 1st anyway.

Egg on Face.

But I will also say - it is all hypothetical at the moment, because I cannot find this quote attributed to Wicked Willie either. Anyone? Otherwise "Could I ask that those comments be stricken from the record, your honour"

All I could find was this from The Times:

BRITISH AIRWAYS is braced for the result of a strike ballot tomorrow that could lead to widespread disruption of Christmas flights. The airline’s 13,000 cabin crew are voting whether to take action in their long running dispute over pay, redundancies and working conditions. If they vote yes — which Unite, their union, thinks likely — the action will take place over the next month, raising the prospect of BA being grounded during the festive season.
The ballot result will be made public at a mass meeting of flight attendants at Sandown Park racecourse in Surrey. Unite sources said strike dates could be made public at the same time. This month BA cut cabin crew by one on all long-haul flights and imposed a series of other changes to working conditions. It will employ all-new cabin crew on cheaper contracts and wants to cut the equivalent of 2,000 jobs through voluntary redundancies and part-time working.

The first 1,000 cabin crew to take redundancy are due to leave the company this week.

Separately, the airline is expected to reveal the latest valuation of its pension deficit in the next fortnight. BA has the largest deficit relative to its stock-market value of any FTSE 100 company and analysts think the valuation, which is undertaken every three years, could show the deficit has risen to about £3.9 billion. The airline’s market value is £2.3 billion.

(Apologies for the irony, but I had to laugh on seeing an article entitled:

Crisis affords chance to remove ills of past, says Walsh - The Irish Times - Wed, Dec 09, 2009

And then on reading it, finding it has nothing to do with the current dispute! )

[malcolmf]

I haven't seen the ballot paper, but maybe someone who has can confirm whether it complies with this:

The voting paper must:

• state the name of the independent scrutineer;
• clearly specify the address to which, and the date by which, it is to be returned;
• be marked with a number, which is one of a series of consecutive numbers used to give a different number to each voting paper.
• make clear whether voters are being asked if they are prepared to take part in industrial action which consists of a strike, or in industrial action short of a strike, which for this purpose includes overtime bans and call-out bans; and
• specify the person or persons (and/or class or classes of person/s) whom the union intends to have authority to make the first call for industrial action to which the ballot relates, in the event of a vote in favour of industrial action

These are from Industrial action and the law - Guidance - BIS

Also:

All those members who it is reasonable at the time of the ballot for the union to believe will be induced by the union, to take part in or continue with the industrial action (8) must be given the opportunity to vote. No one else may be given a vote without invalidating the ballot.

To my simple mind it appears to say that anyone who BASSA knew would no longer be employed but was sent a ballot paper would invalidate the ballot and remove any protection from the Union and staff who subsequently take part in any action.
Surely Unite wouldn't have let BASSA issue an illegal ballot?

[Desertia]

The BASSA elections are far from done and dusted. BASSA had a show of hands to vote on whether they should delay elections until after all this horrid business was finished with.
They counted a "yes" vote.

I've already asked if anyone has pored over the constitution of BASSA (assuming there is such a thing) to find out if this is permitted, and if so whether or not there is a deadline on how long they can delay.

[TopBunk]

A Lurker

Your post #4639 says:

Who say's thats all a PSR with 25 years would get? Some Pilot bloke?

One of your 'mates' who sits at the front - working it out - is he a specialist in Industrial Relations now? Oh yes I forgot - once you learned how to fly an airplane - you automatically know everything else in the world don't you?

Taken from Basic Award

This is calculated by taking the employee's age, years of service and average weekly pay to arrive at a figure. However, the weekly pay figure is limited to a maximum of £380 per week and the maximum years that will be considered is 20. However, the years of service also depend upon the age of the employee.
This is how it is calculated in detail.
Years of service below 22 years of age, the weekly pay is multiplied by 0.5
Years of service between 22 and 41, the weekly pay is multiplied by 1
Years of service from 41 onwards, the weekly pay is multiplied by 1.5
Therefore the absolute maximum that can be awarded is:
20 years at £380 x 1.5 = £11,400.
The Department for Business Enterprise & Regulatory Reform BERR, (formerly the DTI) publishes an easy calculator for working out these figures.
Basic Award Deductions
The tribunal will reduce the Basic Award in the following circumstances: 1. If the employee refuses an offer to be reinstated and it is unreasonable to refuse the offer.
2. The employee is partly to blame for their own dismissal.
3. Conduct before the employee was dismissed, this does not have to be linked with the actual dismissal. The conduct can still be taken into account if it is discovered after the dismissal.
4. Redundancy payments already paid to the employee where the dismissal was due to redundancy.
5. Ex gratia payments expressly or impliedly connected to the basic award.

[The Blu Riband]

try this link too

Summary of the Law on UNFAIR DISMISSAL AND REDUNDANCY

which includes the phrase

The maximum compensation award is currently £66,200.00 (and updated every year), but unless the employee is a very high earner, it is rare for Tribunals to award this amount. Most will award for loss of earnings to the date of hearing plus a limited amount to compensate for future loss.

Reinstatement and re-engagement are rarely ordered by Tribunals.

I take the view that BA couldn't have been more reasonable during these alleged negotiations.
I wouldn't want my cc colleagues to be dismissed in this way but - man - Bassa is doing everything to screw up their lives!!

[henkybaby]

That sounds ridiculously low to me (but then again, I am Dutch)... How can the maximum be GBP 12K and 66K at the same time? Didn't you forget to multiply by 4 or something?

EDIT: Whoa... It is correct. That does not offer much protection against unlawful dismissal at all. Remind me never to accept a job in the UK.

EDIT 2: However

Before making 20 or more employees redundant, employers have to consult at the earliest opportunity with any independent trade union which is recognised for collective bargaining or, where no union is recognised, with elected representatives.

Appropriate information must be provided to the union and the employer has to consult with a view to reaching an agreement. If the employer fails to do so, the union can apply for a “protective award”. This is anything up to 90 days pay, according to the circumstances, for each employee affected.

The time limit for these claims is normally 3 months from the date the dismissals take effect.

[Clarified]

Clarifying

Fellow posters, I would like to comment on this CSD, crewing levels thing which raises its head every now and then. As I think you know I am a CSD on WW fleet LHR. I have completed 10 sectors with the adjusted crewing levels. ALL of them have been uneventful, at briefing the club galley has not been last choice and increasingly many crew members take that position because they enjoy responsibilty.
My customer satisfaction levels have not changed, the order in which I do things has slightly as I am needed in Club so say hello to customers (1st, Gold etc. later in the flight). Teamwork has been my emphasis and most colleagues have responded and indeed been very motivated.
People still meet up and have a nice time off the aircraft and appreciate what a great job we have and will continue to have.

[henkybaby]

Clarified, thanks for... er .... clarifying!

To add to that: making it about service standards would imply that the unions strike on behalf of me, the passenger. That is not only presumptuous but also a poor excuse. I have asked ALurker and others to please explain to me what the real world impact of the changes are to his personal situation. I am really interested in that answer.

[wobble2plank]

One of your 'mates' who sits at the front - working it out - is he a specialist in Industrial Relations now? Oh yes I forgot - once you learned how to fly an airplane - you automatically know everything else in the world don't you?

I don't claim to automatically know everything else in the world but, as well as learning how to fly an airplanes and incidentally various other flying machines as well, I also hold an MBA. Based upon what I would be looking at and using the knowledge gained during my MBA I have to say I would be looking very closely at the risk management of 'unfairly' dismissing unruly members of the striking faction. I would have to look at the strength of ballot and would have canvassed opinion from both customers and the affected branch before deciding to try a 'risky' approach.

This approach could have amongst many minor possibilities two major possibilities. The IA would have to be 'flakey' with little or minority support thus leading to a rapid collapse of the IA and a return to work leading to a minimising of the disruption costs.

The other would be that dismissing the 'militant' members could be the catalyst that energisis the less militant and the moderate into full blown unfair dismissal IA.

It is a risky path to tread but a contingency that has undoubtedly been examined.

I think the quietness of the BA management and the belief of WW in no IA should be a very great cause for concern for Unite/BASSA.

Roll on tomorrow.

Hope certain members of CF and the BASSA Forum have still got their 'Champers' on ice.

[HiFlyer14]

Malcolmf - I saw the ballot paper, albeit briefly as I put my X in the no box very quickly and sent it back.

I have read the legalities aswell, and frankly was surprised that the ballot paper contained so little on it. To my recollection there was no mention of the Independent Scrutineer, nor the person who would call the strike action. But I may have missed it. There was a lot of other paperwork that came with the ballot paper, so the other info might have been on there, but my understanding is it should be on the actual ballot paper itself.

In addition the point of the VR crew receiving a ballot paper was raised with the Union (they definitely did because I spoke to some first hand who did) and the Union dismissed it out of hand. They then sent round a text message asking for the names of anyone we think may have received a ballot paper who was taking VR.

I hope that people are now beginning to see the true colours of this very shoddy outfit that call themselves a Union. They care not one hoot about our well-being as they have NEVER asked the entire membership for their views on ANYTHING. They are hell-bent on a power struggle to try and run this company, and we the cabin crew are caught in the middle of it. A growing minority of us have seen the light, voted no and have resigned from the Union. We will be coming to work, strike or not. However, I fear enormously for many of my colleagues, some who have only been in the company a couple of years who fail to understand the complexities of this situation. They have been led to believe that by being a member of the Union they are safe and vitually untouchable. It is a gravely false security that the Union are giving them. They are not safe, they are not untouchable and their jobs, salaries and livelihoods are being put at enormous risk.

Even those of us who have now resigned from the Union could still be at risk. I sincerely hope that BA are able to seperate the wheat from the chaff because otherwise we are all going to suffer. And all because one lady lives in Hollywood and believes she should lead a Hollywood lifestyle.

I am BA cabin crew. The above represents my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

[A Lurker]

Top Bunk & Blue Riband

You both conveniently forgot to include the loss of earnings portion on you calculation - ie the allowances one would lose by not being able to work + the basic award - plus any compensatory award

[henkybaby]

WB ALurker

Hope you slept well. Can you look at my question on the previous page (#4658) and answer that one please? Thanks!

[deeceethree]

HiFlyer14,

I fear enormously for many of my colleagues, some who have only been in the company a couple of years who fail to understand the complexities of this situation. They have been led to believe that by being a member of the Union they are safe and vitually untouchable.

Whilst I appreciate your concern for colleagues, do you accept that by "failing to understand" the situation they must be responsible in some way for their predicament? Just because one is a member of a union doesn't mean that common sense and personal responsibility can be thrown out! Many of your colleagues are happy to harp on about being in the union, "because it gives me protection", but they don't have the first clue about what protection that may, or may not, be. There is this vague idea that membership somehow brings immortality, and that they can continue to live a fairy tale life without ever questioning what is going on. Granted, BASSA have probably tried to encorage that notion, but it doesn't say much for the perceived intelligence of some of the members.

And all because one lady lives in Hollywood and believes she should lead a Hollywood lifestyle.

Precisely, but the membership have allowed her to get away with it, and are now going to pay the price. Sad, but self-inflicted.