British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dublin
Age: 65
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pension Holidays
This is just to clarify a misconception that's arisen here over the above subject.
BA, and many other, pension schemes did take contribution holidays in the mid-1990s. This covered both employer and employee contributions. As pointed out earlier, the schemes were in significant surplus at the time. The key point to note is that the Revenue does not allow schemes to be run with large surpluses as they offer scope for tax avoidance, ie effectively sheltering corporate profit and/or employee earnings from immediate taxation. So, if there are large surpluses, holidays are taken. I think you'll find benefits were also improved in order to draw down the surplus more quickly. With hindsight, that wasn't a brilliant move, as these are now making pension deficits worse. However, the pensions issue raised here is really a Revenue/tax issue, not a BA ploy that reduced employee benefits in any way.
BA, and many other, pension schemes did take contribution holidays in the mid-1990s. This covered both employer and employee contributions. As pointed out earlier, the schemes were in significant surplus at the time. The key point to note is that the Revenue does not allow schemes to be run with large surpluses as they offer scope for tax avoidance, ie effectively sheltering corporate profit and/or employee earnings from immediate taxation. So, if there are large surpluses, holidays are taken. I think you'll find benefits were also improved in order to draw down the surplus more quickly. With hindsight, that wasn't a brilliant move, as these are now making pension deficits worse. However, the pensions issue raised here is really a Revenue/tax issue, not a BA ploy that reduced employee benefits in any way.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh the igmoninominy....
Oh dear, I mean making people work for their salary - how vicious can Willie get?!
The latest pathetic little tirade from the UNITEBA website (and still no mention of whether or not claimants could end up being liable for High Court Costs, funnily enough!!).
And I know I joking called them stormtroopers, so the Freudian spelling error in the last sentence made me laugh out loud!
"When's a lockout not a lockout? When there's no door!
Over the last couple of weeks your reps have been engaged in a private sweepstake over when the company is going to eject us from our office in Terminal 5 and lock us out.
Unfortunately it seems that through their refusal to adhere to the agreement made following the 2007 dispute to fit doors to our offices they have shot themselves in their collective feet - no door on the office = no door to lock!
As they closed the 'lockout' option to themselves (no pun intended) the company seems to be undertaking a more insidious approach to separating you and your reps. Instead of getting us out of the office, the company is getting us from the country by refusing to deroster us to carry out our office duties which are a long standing agreement with the company and is sending us flying.
If, in the deteriorating industrial relations climate, you come to the office and find it unmanned during normal opening hours, please be assured - we'd be there if we could.
It seems that we are being left to cover the office in our MBTs, on annual leave and on 24hr days. We are trying to retain as full a service as we can for you. We will always be available on the emergency phone even if we end up having to take it away on trips with us. Alternatively please make full use of the email facility that is at your disposal.
Please rest assured that we are trying our best under very difficult circumstances to serve you as best we possibly can.
Thank you fur <sic> your understanding and support."
The latest pathetic little tirade from the UNITEBA website (and still no mention of whether or not claimants could end up being liable for High Court Costs, funnily enough!!).
And I know I joking called them stormtroopers, so the Freudian spelling error in the last sentence made me laugh out loud!
"When's a lockout not a lockout? When there's no door!
Over the last couple of weeks your reps have been engaged in a private sweepstake over when the company is going to eject us from our office in Terminal 5 and lock us out.
Unfortunately it seems that through their refusal to adhere to the agreement made following the 2007 dispute to fit doors to our offices they have shot themselves in their collective feet - no door on the office = no door to lock!
As they closed the 'lockout' option to themselves (no pun intended) the company seems to be undertaking a more insidious approach to separating you and your reps. Instead of getting us out of the office, the company is getting us from the country by refusing to deroster us to carry out our office duties which are a long standing agreement with the company and is sending us flying.
If, in the deteriorating industrial relations climate, you come to the office and find it unmanned during normal opening hours, please be assured - we'd be there if we could.
It seems that we are being left to cover the office in our MBTs, on annual leave and on 24hr days. We are trying to retain as full a service as we can for you. We will always be available on the emergency phone even if we end up having to take it away on trips with us. Alternatively please make full use of the email facility that is at your disposal.
Please rest assured that we are trying our best under very difficult circumstances to serve you as best we possibly can.
Thank you fur <sic> your understanding and support."
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indemnity
The thought just occurred to me that any BASSA member here could clarify the issue regarding claimants exposure to costs should BASSA lose in the High Court.
They have an email address at their lawyers, who I assume would be happy to answer the question for you:
[email protected]
I'm sure many people would be interested in hearing who would be liable for the significant costs in the event of a loss.
(Oh and that's also the address the poor things should use when they get sick or hurt having to work under imposition).
They have an email address at their lawyers, who I assume would be happy to answer the question for you:
[email protected]
I'm sure many people would be interested in hearing who would be liable for the significant costs in the event of a loss.
(Oh and that's also the address the poor things should use when they get sick or hurt having to work under imposition).
ottergirl
Marty112 decribes exactly the way Bassa run the operation in BA regarding crewing and disruptions. As an ex BA Capt., on a number of occasions I was unable to continue a legal operation after disruption to get my pax to their destination. This was soley due to BASSA imposed restrictions which BA Management were, and probably still are unwilling to overule.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Age: 53
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fume Event,
What Cessnapete says above is ABSOLUTELY true, and you know it.
One example (of many):
In the disruption earlier this year, with dozens of LHR inbounds diverted to other UK stations due snow, BASSA insisted that many of the cabin crews take two local nights rest at the diversion station, before continuing to LHR.
This was an industrial rule, not the law, and BASSA insisted that it was adhered to.
So when you say "The only restriction would be if the cabin crew did not achieve sufficient break time to continue ie at least three hours horizontal rest." you are wrong.
I am confident that you will not admit or acknowledge this.
Prove me wrong.
What Cessnapete says above is ABSOLUTELY true, and you know it.
One example (of many):
In the disruption earlier this year, with dozens of LHR inbounds diverted to other UK stations due snow, BASSA insisted that many of the cabin crews take two local nights rest at the diversion station, before continuing to LHR.
This was an industrial rule, not the law, and BASSA insisted that it was adhered to.
So when you say "The only restriction would be if the cabin crew did not achieve sufficient break time to continue ie at least three hours horizontal rest." you are wrong.
I am confident that you will not admit or acknowledge this.
Prove me wrong.
Fume Event
Don't let us get into a slanging match but one example.
Dep Lhr-Hgk B744, light pax load 200ish. We had a tech delay which was fixed, and then one of the cc taken ill on the a/c. BASSA rules unable to operate one down out of LHR, and we could not get a replacement for about an hour. This took us over the Industrial duty time but within the legal duty period.
Could not get an alleviation from BASSA to operate one down out of Lhr and went out of hours. 200 pax into hotels and operated 14 hours later-with new cc, presumably bcause they had reported for Duty and now needed two local nights off!!
The CSD advised original crew happy to operate. but worried about fines from BASSA. BA Management would not intervene on my behalf.
Cost- many thousands of pounds.
Dep Lhr-Hgk B744, light pax load 200ish. We had a tech delay which was fixed, and then one of the cc taken ill on the a/c. BASSA rules unable to operate one down out of LHR, and we could not get a replacement for about an hour. This took us over the Industrial duty time but within the legal duty period.
Could not get an alleviation from BASSA to operate one down out of Lhr and went out of hours. 200 pax into hotels and operated 14 hours later-with new cc, presumably bcause they had reported for Duty and now needed two local nights off!!
The CSD advised original crew happy to operate. but worried about fines from BASSA. BA Management would not intervene on my behalf.
Cost- many thousands of pounds.
Last edited by cessnapete; 24th Nov 2009 at 09:22.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fume...
Yesterday, I operated into LHR, late due to disruption caused by high winds. My next link (with ac change) to XXX required a dash in the TRMs vehicle from jet to jet, opposite ends of T5. From chocks on I had 22 minutes to achieve an on-time departure.
The scene is set and I am in command - a command that begins as I walk up the steps with the intention to operate.
On arrival at the new aircraft I was greeted thus by the male CC member (steward) working upfront subordinate to the purser. - 'Hello mate, where have you been? We're gonna be late 'cos of you!, 'spose you wanna cuppa tea mate? - Believe me, his opening address was NOT said kindly or TIC.
Now, I am a very reasonable bloke, so I took a deep breath and I apologised for my lateness and sped into my seat to prepare. Said steward, then went and sat in row 1 and opened his paper. We departed 10 minutes late due airfield congestion having been ready to push on time (with the timely contributions of a very able co-pilot). My tea arrived during the 10 minute wait. I was refered to as mate by this crewmember for the rest of the tour.
What's my point? Desperation Fume, desperation that I am expected to manage such disrespectful and, as it happens, scruffy CC.
BTW , said steward was equally familiar and curt with the pax - I know, I listened to his welcoming as the pax boarded .
..So please, Fume, keep your anti-Flight Deck ramblings to yourself until you have sorted out your own kind first.
GF
Yesterday, I operated into LHR, late due to disruption caused by high winds. My next link (with ac change) to XXX required a dash in the TRMs vehicle from jet to jet, opposite ends of T5. From chocks on I had 22 minutes to achieve an on-time departure.
The scene is set and I am in command - a command that begins as I walk up the steps with the intention to operate.
On arrival at the new aircraft I was greeted thus by the male CC member (steward) working upfront subordinate to the purser. - 'Hello mate, where have you been? We're gonna be late 'cos of you!, 'spose you wanna cuppa tea mate? - Believe me, his opening address was NOT said kindly or TIC.
Now, I am a very reasonable bloke, so I took a deep breath and I apologised for my lateness and sped into my seat to prepare. Said steward, then went and sat in row 1 and opened his paper. We departed 10 minutes late due airfield congestion having been ready to push on time (with the timely contributions of a very able co-pilot). My tea arrived during the 10 minute wait. I was refered to as mate by this crewmember for the rest of the tour.
What's my point? Desperation Fume, desperation that I am expected to manage such disrespectful and, as it happens, scruffy CC.
BTW , said steward was equally familiar and curt with the pax - I know, I listened to his welcoming as the pax boarded .
..So please, Fume, keep your anti-Flight Deck ramblings to yourself until you have sorted out your own kind first.
GF
Last edited by IYCSWICSWICW; 24th Nov 2009 at 09:53.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aha, HW, here we go:
Well, what were my options?
Sledgehammer or Subtle?
First, on landing at XXX, I reminded the 2 out of the 3 rear-crew that did not come up to introduce themselves on the ground at LHR, (and they had the time) that given the scenario we were in, it would have been the thing to do - all done with smiles - in the best interests of CRM/disaster management come the unlikely moment.
Second, I reminded the Purser that I have worked quite hard to get where I am now, so I prefer on initial meet-ups to be called by my name which is on my badge, or Captain - either will do. I left it with the P.
Now, HW what would you have done.
Well, what were my options?
Sledgehammer or Subtle?
First, on landing at XXX, I reminded the 2 out of the 3 rear-crew that did not come up to introduce themselves on the ground at LHR, (and they had the time) that given the scenario we were in, it would have been the thing to do - all done with smiles - in the best interests of CRM/disaster management come the unlikely moment.
Second, I reminded the Purser that I have worked quite hard to get where I am now, so I prefer on initial meet-ups to be called by my name which is on my badge, or Captain - either will do. I left it with the P.
Now, HW what would you have done.
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We will not close this thread because some of you lack basic manners, and we will not let this forum descend to the depths of various other fora where this same matter is being discussed.
So shape up or ship out.
Cockpit and cabin colleagues; please leave your animosity at the door.
You do it on the aircraft, and if you want to continue availing yourself of PPRuNe to discuss BA CC Industrial Relations, leave them at the door here as well.
Donīt how many times this needs repeating, but here we go once more.
This thread is not about pilots. Not about their manners, not about their social graces, not about their work practices, their labour agreements or their salary & stock options.
Itīs not about passengers, your holiday plans, your gripes and your kudos. We have the SLF forum for that.
This is about BA CC; you all need to restrict your post content to that subject and take the rest to the PM system. (where abuse is equally frowned upon BTW)
Failure to abide by this will as ever see posts deleted and thread bans awarded.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Epsom
Age: 65
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am amazed to read that the day to day operation of BA aircraft is over looked by cabin crew members (union rep's) who can over ride decisions made by anyone else in the airline that can result in services being delayed or even cancelled because they have one crew member short for whomever's reason that may be.
It may not be the fault of the airline or the staff member if staff fail to turn up for work and all the standby crew have been used. That must be expected to happen from time to time when road accidents and weather conditions occur.
I fully agree that when agreements are made between a company and a union they should work within those agreement. However, as aircraft operations are subject to weather conditions it is surprising absolutely zero flexibility is allowed on the side of the union which severely disrupts the travel plans of the customers.
My understanding from a fellow passenger who sat next to me last week is that a lot of long haul BA crew live abroad and commute to work. That surely must put the operation at risk if they get delayed themselves through no seats being available for them or the aircraft is delayed. This is particularly noticeable on the Nice route which I use several times a month.
It is hard to believe aircraft can be ordered to divert because the cabin crew are appoaching their maximum duty periods but still within legal limits. I do not think BA passengers on the flight mentioned were exactly delighted to end up somewhere they did not want to be, not to mention the cost to the airline.
Obviously there is more to this industrial dispute than meets the eyes of those not within by BA. Could it be power?
It may not be the fault of the airline or the staff member if staff fail to turn up for work and all the standby crew have been used. That must be expected to happen from time to time when road accidents and weather conditions occur.
I fully agree that when agreements are made between a company and a union they should work within those agreement. However, as aircraft operations are subject to weather conditions it is surprising absolutely zero flexibility is allowed on the side of the union which severely disrupts the travel plans of the customers.
My understanding from a fellow passenger who sat next to me last week is that a lot of long haul BA crew live abroad and commute to work. That surely must put the operation at risk if they get delayed themselves through no seats being available for them or the aircraft is delayed. This is particularly noticeable on the Nice route which I use several times a month.
It is hard to believe aircraft can be ordered to divert because the cabin crew are appoaching their maximum duty periods but still within legal limits. I do not think BA passengers on the flight mentioned were exactly delighted to end up somewhere they did not want to be, not to mention the cost to the airline.
Obviously there is more to this industrial dispute than meets the eyes of those not within by BA. Could it be power?
Last edited by Jpax; 24th Nov 2009 at 11:50.
Jpax
You have hit the nail on the head. Until BA FLT OPS MANAGEMENT have the balls(mods, excuse my language) to run the day to day operation, not the unions, nothing will change.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 56
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which one are you???
There are three types on people working in any organization:-
· Type A. Fully Committed and Fully Competent
· Type B. Fully Committed but not Fully Competent
· Type C. Not Committed but Fully Competent
The As are great, look after them, give them the benefits they deserve.
The Bs can be trained to become As.
Get rid of the Cs, redundancy, pay them off, pursued them to leave, just get rid of them. No business can move forward with Cs in the way.
Well that how it goes in the outside world.
· Type A. Fully Committed and Fully Competent
· Type B. Fully Committed but not Fully Competent
· Type C. Not Committed but Fully Competent
The As are great, look after them, give them the benefits they deserve.
The Bs can be trained to become As.
Get rid of the Cs, redundancy, pay them off, pursued them to leave, just get rid of them. No business can move forward with Cs in the way.
Well that how it goes in the outside world.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unbelievable!
Originally posted by IYCSWICSWICW
On arrival at the new aircraft I was greeted thus by the male CC member (steward) working upfront subordinate to the purser. - 'Hello mate, where have you been? We're gonna be late 'cos of you!, 'spose you wanna cuppa tea mate? - Believe me, his opening address was NOT said kindly or TIC.
Now, I am a very reasonable bloke, so I took a deep breath and I apologised for my lateness and sped into my seat to prepare. Said steward, then went and sat in row 1 and opened his paper. We departed 10 minutes late due airfield congestion having been ready to push on time (with the timely contributions of a very able co-pilot). My tea arrived during the 10 minute wait. I was refered to as mate by this crewmember for the rest of the tour.
What's my point? Desperation Fume, desperation that I am expected to manage such disrespectful and, as it happens, scruffy CC.
BTW , said steward was equally familiar and curt with the pax - I know, I listened to his welcoming as the pax boarded .
..So please, Fume, keep your anti-Flight Deck ramblings to yourself until you have sorted out your own kind
Second, I reminded the Purser that I have worked quite hard to get where I am now, so I prefer on initial meet-ups to be called by my name which is on my badge, or Captain - either will do. I left it with the P.
On arrival at the new aircraft I was greeted thus by the male CC member (steward) working upfront subordinate to the purser. - 'Hello mate, where have you been? We're gonna be late 'cos of you!, 'spose you wanna cuppa tea mate? - Believe me, his opening address was NOT said kindly or TIC.
Now, I am a very reasonable bloke, so I took a deep breath and I apologised for my lateness and sped into my seat to prepare. Said steward, then went and sat in row 1 and opened his paper. We departed 10 minutes late due airfield congestion having been ready to push on time (with the timely contributions of a very able co-pilot). My tea arrived during the 10 minute wait. I was refered to as mate by this crewmember for the rest of the tour.
What's my point? Desperation Fume, desperation that I am expected to manage such disrespectful and, as it happens, scruffy CC.
BTW , said steward was equally familiar and curt with the pax - I know, I listened to his welcoming as the pax boarded .
..So please, Fume, keep your anti-Flight Deck ramblings to yourself until you have sorted out your own kind
Second, I reminded the Purser that I have worked quite hard to get where I am now, so I prefer on initial meet-ups to be called by my name which is on my badge, or Captain - either will do. I left it with the P.
My apologies on behalf of my ig...... colleague.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Travelling Public
There are three types on people working in any organization:-
· Type A. Fully Committed and Fully Competent
· Type B. Fully Committed but not Fully Competent
· Type C. Not Committed but Fully Competent
The As are great, look after them, give them the benefits they deserve.
The Bs can be trained to become As.
Get rid of the Cs, redundancy, pay them off, pursued them to leave, just get rid of them. No business can move forward with Cs in the way.
Well that how it goes in the outside world.
There are three types on people working in any organization:-
· Type A. Fully Committed and Fully Competent
· Type B. Fully Committed but not Fully Competent
· Type C. Not Committed but Fully Competent
The As are great, look after them, give them the benefits they deserve.
The Bs can be trained to become As.
Get rid of the Cs, redundancy, pay them off, pursued them to leave, just get rid of them. No business can move forward with Cs in the way.
Well that how it goes in the outside world.
Originally posted by Carnage M
You missed type D, not fully committed and not fully competent. Plenty of those amongst a certain workforce.
You missed type D, not fully committed and not fully competent. Plenty of those amongst a certain workforce.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see that a few of my posts have been censored off but a certain strain of thinking is allowed to permeate this thread ie anti BA cabin crew.
That should be the name of this thread: The Anti-BA Cabin Crew thread
That should be the name of this thread: The Anti-BA Cabin Crew thread