British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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I've read that forum PiB, none of it's made up, even those threats to find and punish the whistleblower. It's fascinating because we are regularly regaled with tales of how tough our crew are and how we better not preach to them on their briefings or they'll tear our heads off but when it looks like their cover might be blown they're left running around like naughty children hoping Teacher doesn't find out. It would seem they are rather more supine than they let on, which is why there won't be a cabin crew strike at BA. Willie Walsh is Teacher and you're about to get spanked!
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Poof in boots,
'The day of the £60,000 Captain is not far away'
I will bet you £60,000 you are wrong. Supply and demand is the letter of the law (you are about to find that out) and talking to mates in the 'Training World' young pilots are not entering the profession in large numbers for various reasons. Credit has dried up and there are no jobs amongst a few.
Airlines pay pilots well because you don't put a monkey in charge of a $300,000,000 asset not to mention the 400 souls behind the door.
Pilots will always be paid well for what they do. Accept it and for Christ sake move on.
'The day of the £60,000 Captain is not far away'
I will bet you £60,000 you are wrong. Supply and demand is the letter of the law (you are about to find that out) and talking to mates in the 'Training World' young pilots are not entering the profession in large numbers for various reasons. Credit has dried up and there are no jobs amongst a few.
Airlines pay pilots well because you don't put a monkey in charge of a $300,000,000 asset not to mention the 400 souls behind the door.
Pilots will always be paid well for what they do. Accept it and for Christ sake move on.
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What a very sad state of affairs.
This is going to do nothing for the two groups of employees cabin crew and flight crew - the implications for poor CRM are just around the corner.
We now find ourselves back to pre Kegworth days. Have we learnt nothing from past experiences?
This is going to do nothing for the two groups of employees cabin crew and flight crew - the implications for poor CRM are just around the corner.
We now find ourselves back to pre Kegworth days. Have we learnt nothing from past experiences?
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Mandyconn: a few weeks ago I made a posting re CRM, explaining what the correct meaning was. I was then banned from this thread for a week with no explanation...
Certain folk may get a kick out of baiting others on this forum, but I don't believe that your prediction will come true, as the vast majority of BA pilots and crew will work together as they always have.
Certain folk may get a kick out of baiting others on this forum, but I don't believe that your prediction will come true, as the vast majority of BA pilots and crew will work together as they always have.
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This thread is open to the world, and is on a forum owned and operated outside either of CF or internal company rules. Alleged "copy and pastes", whether infringements of CF rules or not, cannot be controlled on this forum whether CF operators like it or not, without the willing cooperation of PPRuNe mods, cooperation that is unlikely to be forthcoming, as the raison d'etre of this forum is to provide independent and unbiased opinions from any concerned person.
I find it hard to believe anyone who copies and pastes from CF can be identified: the number of people who disagree with BASSA's stance is too numerous.
What is Stalinist is quashing alternative views. It is a matter of opinion whether excerpts from CF provide a full picture of view there or not. It is either a happy environment where all views are welcome (as PiB claims a few posts above), or a biased, single-sided argument with all crew in agreement (as PiB and his/her ilk claim far earlier in the thread)
If PiB disagrees that GG's excerpts are not representative, then why has he/she - on several previous posts - been both threatening and hard-line in exactly the same manner as the excerpts suggest?
Can't have it both ways, as logically something would not add up...
I find it hard to believe anyone who copies and pastes from CF can be identified: the number of people who disagree with BASSA's stance is too numerous.
What is Stalinist is quashing alternative views. It is a matter of opinion whether excerpts from CF provide a full picture of view there or not. It is either a happy environment where all views are welcome (as PiB claims a few posts above), or a biased, single-sided argument with all crew in agreement (as PiB and his/her ilk claim far earlier in the thread)
If PiB disagrees that GG's excerpts are not representative, then why has he/she - on several previous posts - been both threatening and hard-line in exactly the same manner as the excerpts suggest?
Can't have it both ways, as logically something would not add up...
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For what it's worth, I also have access to CF, and it's basically as GG describes it!
PiB wonders why more CC don't post and 'debate' over there: Well maybe it's because they get shouted down, abused, etc! We know many crew who now can't even be bothered to visit that forum!
I have recently flown with some of the most vile crew members I have ever had the misfortune to meet. In over ten years I have never come across such behaviour. Put simply, regardless of the current difficulties at work, these people were rude, evasive and impolite - all because I happen to be a pilot. This wasn't even as a result of any 'conversation' - one of the crew, a purser, refused to shake hands at briefing (not a big thing I guess, just downright rude when someone offers a hand!)
suprise suprise we didn't see them on the trip!
Anyway
SS
PiB wonders why more CC don't post and 'debate' over there: Well maybe it's because they get shouted down, abused, etc! We know many crew who now can't even be bothered to visit that forum!
I have recently flown with some of the most vile crew members I have ever had the misfortune to meet. In over ten years I have never come across such behaviour. Put simply, regardless of the current difficulties at work, these people were rude, evasive and impolite - all because I happen to be a pilot. This wasn't even as a result of any 'conversation' - one of the crew, a purser, refused to shake hands at briefing (not a big thing I guess, just downright rude when someone offers a hand!)
suprise suprise we didn't see them on the trip!
Anyway
SS
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...by way of a bit of balance...
There is a lot of emotion flying around at the moment and that is reflected on this forum, but if you read the posts I think the general impression you get reflects the way things are out there: most people are reasonable, intelligent and pragmatic. But there is a vocal minority who are either too intellectually-challenged to understand what is going on, or they are too appalled at the potential consequences for their unsustainable salaries to contemplate the change which is coming.
Sadly, it's the squealers who get heard.
I have just done a sequence of trips with delightful people. They were all a pleasure to work with - friendly, attentive and fun, but also very focussed on delivering great customer service. They know what differentiates BA from some of the competition and they were determined to enhance our reputation. We didn't always socialise, but when we did there was no talk of industrial matters, it was just a bunch of colleagues having a chat and a laugh.
As we drank, chatted and smiled, at the back of my mind was the thought that these are decent, normal people with mortgages, families and all the usual commitments, who must be desperately worried about the future. Had they had a more competent union they would not be such hostages to fortune: they would have the reasonable expectation that their representatives would be shrewdly negotiating the best deal available. Sadly, as things stand at the moment, all their hopes are pinned on the tactical industrial skills of a bunch of self-centred, naive amateurs.
I REALLY feel for them
Sadly, it's the squealers who get heard.
I have just done a sequence of trips with delightful people. They were all a pleasure to work with - friendly, attentive and fun, but also very focussed on delivering great customer service. They know what differentiates BA from some of the competition and they were determined to enhance our reputation. We didn't always socialise, but when we did there was no talk of industrial matters, it was just a bunch of colleagues having a chat and a laugh.
As we drank, chatted and smiled, at the back of my mind was the thought that these are decent, normal people with mortgages, families and all the usual commitments, who must be desperately worried about the future. Had they had a more competent union they would not be such hostages to fortune: they would have the reasonable expectation that their representatives would be shrewdly negotiating the best deal available. Sadly, as things stand at the moment, all their hopes are pinned on the tactical industrial skills of a bunch of self-centred, naive amateurs.
I REALLY feel for them
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This is almost sad - Some of you really seem to have no concept of how childish some of your own comments make you look. To the outsider, BA looks like a pretty unpleasant place to work, on either side of the flight deck door - I cannot tell you how glad I am that I have never encountered anything approaching this level of vitriol in my working life. Watching this issue being discussed here is a little like watching a couple performing an especially depraved and violent sex act in a theater. It has a certain fascination and curiosity value, but the observer is ultimately left feeling sad, repulsed and morally soiled - and above all, appalled that the parties involved lacked sufficient self-respect to at least perform in private.
It is pretty clear from reading news, blogs and info from various sources, and from having to read everything on these several BA threads that BA Management & BASSA richly deserve each other - each represent everything that is detestable about running a business in the UK, and the very lowest denominator of what is estimable in the industry. Each side attempts to blame the other, exclusively, when it is transparently obvious to outsiders that each side is equally responsible. If you are sitting in either community and finding yourself believing that your side has performed with intelligence, then you badly need to step back and have a talk with yourself. Luckily, PPRuNe has no agenda on this dispute.
I'd like to try and dial down the anti-BASSA venom please: Throwing rocks at people rarely moves the argument forward. If you feel that you may be rising to the bait, then you probably are - Resist and ignore!
PIB - Once or twice you have hovered near threatening others: My advice, be very careful. Your views are tolerated in here in the interests of balance - If we could find somebody else, better, and more prone to actually answering the questions raised, and less prone to diversion and distraction from the issues, then believe me, you'd be history (as would the next BASSA mouth-frother to turn up and Troll).
There is no restriction on posting stuff from elsewhere on the web, beyond the usual caveats which your common sense will tell you about.
In trying to remove the nastier posts, and to keep off the Pilot related aspects, the mods cull the thread periodically: This is not a scalpel-like precision exercise - it is more akin to a Gatling Gun i.e. there may be blue-on-blue casualties. Live with it please.
Should this dispute actually lead to anything significant, a new thread will be opened with a clean start. Until then, carry on here, but please try and make yourselves look good while doing so.
It is pretty clear from reading news, blogs and info from various sources, and from having to read everything on these several BA threads that BA Management & BASSA richly deserve each other - each represent everything that is detestable about running a business in the UK, and the very lowest denominator of what is estimable in the industry. Each side attempts to blame the other, exclusively, when it is transparently obvious to outsiders that each side is equally responsible. If you are sitting in either community and finding yourself believing that your side has performed with intelligence, then you badly need to step back and have a talk with yourself. Luckily, PPRuNe has no agenda on this dispute.
I'd like to try and dial down the anti-BASSA venom please: Throwing rocks at people rarely moves the argument forward. If you feel that you may be rising to the bait, then you probably are - Resist and ignore!
PIB - Once or twice you have hovered near threatening others: My advice, be very careful. Your views are tolerated in here in the interests of balance - If we could find somebody else, better, and more prone to actually answering the questions raised, and less prone to diversion and distraction from the issues, then believe me, you'd be history (as would the next BASSA mouth-frother to turn up and Troll).
There is no restriction on posting stuff from elsewhere on the web, beyond the usual caveats which your common sense will tell you about.
In trying to remove the nastier posts, and to keep off the Pilot related aspects, the mods cull the thread periodically: This is not a scalpel-like precision exercise - it is more akin to a Gatling Gun i.e. there may be blue-on-blue casualties. Live with it please.
Should this dispute actually lead to anything significant, a new thread will be opened with a clean start. Until then, carry on here, but please try and make yourselves look good while doing so.
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BA Management & BASSA richly deserve each other - each represent everything that is detestable about running a business in the UK, and the very lowest denominator of what is estimable in the industry.
That is not the sort of statement I would expect from a moderator- and one in which £350 million of convertible bonds recently taken up by city institutions may disagree with. BA management as far as I can see have been straight down the line. They always had a June 30th deadline - and those unions that were prepared to engage and negotiate have come to agreements - those that were not now find themselves in hot water.The airline industry has changed forever - and so airlines need to change forever. BA management is currently doing what should have been done years ago - and finally have the balls to do it. Some of us actually believe that BA management is doing the right thing - and for the last 12 years I have found BA to be a very fair and reasonable employer. Would you care to justify why BA represents everything that is detestable about running a business in the UK and why they are the lowest common denominator of what is estimable in the industry? I can think of other airlines that are far more appropriate targets of your comments!!!
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Well we fly out of LGW once a year and LHR once a year to Europe, and since LGW started with the 3 crew thing, the service has been dire.
They throw things at you, don't offer you anything in a nice way anymore - the pride is gone.
Like so many industries now, they seem demotivated and don't seem to care.
Smiles have been replaced with withering looks, and keen-ness with nonchalance/indifference.
It's a shame because it used to be a really good base - when they had a reasonable amount of crew.
Easyjet have 3 crew, but then they have ONE cabin,a non-compulsory product and no premium product.
Give them a break for goodness sake.
They throw things at you, don't offer you anything in a nice way anymore - the pride is gone.
Like so many industries now, they seem demotivated and don't seem to care.
Smiles have been replaced with withering looks, and keen-ness with nonchalance/indifference.
It's a shame because it used to be a really good base - when they had a reasonable amount of crew.
Easyjet have 3 crew, but then they have ONE cabin,a non-compulsory product and no premium product.
Give them a break for goodness sake.
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Keep pushing why don't you...?
Several posts acting as QED for my last post, and attacking mods impartiality have now been deleted.
My last post was impartial, as am I. I really, really could not care less for either side. Re-reading my post, this is absolutely clear - unless of course you willfully choose not to see it. A plague on all your houses - BASSA, Managers & Shareholders, and working for a route competitor, I wouldn't shed many tears if BA went under, except for the welfare of the (presumed) silent majority of staff in all areas who frankly have deserved better.
I've have had enough of the idiots on this thread, and the 24hr moderation apparently required to prevent the children from climbing out of the cot.
Re-read my last post - it explains that if any of you are unable to see both sides of the argument, you are contributing nothing to the debate: If that is too complicated a concept for you, as apparently it was for the last few contributors, then your standard of debate is probably below that required for this web site.
No further posts will be tolerated telling us how to moderate - if you don't like it, don't come here.
My last post was impartial, as am I. I really, really could not care less for either side. Re-reading my post, this is absolutely clear - unless of course you willfully choose not to see it. A plague on all your houses - BASSA, Managers & Shareholders, and working for a route competitor, I wouldn't shed many tears if BA went under, except for the welfare of the (presumed) silent majority of staff in all areas who frankly have deserved better.
I've have had enough of the idiots on this thread, and the 24hr moderation apparently required to prevent the children from climbing out of the cot.
Re-read my last post - it explains that if any of you are unable to see both sides of the argument, you are contributing nothing to the debate: If that is too complicated a concept for you, as apparently it was for the last few contributors, then your standard of debate is probably below that required for this web site.
No further posts will be tolerated telling us how to moderate - if you don't like it, don't come here.
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I think TightSlot's doing a good job given some of the orchestrated nonsense being posted by BASSA militants. They're watching this thread and congratulating themselves on being banned for their moronic content! Even now they are wilfully misrepresenting the facts, but as I know you're watching boys and girls, the Nigels have not been shafted despite your desperate desire to see it. Pop into the flight deck and I'll gladly give you the true details of whats happening, but I'm quite comfortable with what is a sensible decision to seal the deal.
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Originally Posted by Anti-ice
Well we fly out of LGW once a year and LHR once a year to Europe, and since LGW started with the 3 crew thing, the service has been dire.
They throw things at you, don't offer you anything in a nice way anymore - the pride is gone.
Like so many industries now, they seem demotivated and don't seem to care.
Smiles have been replaced with withering looks, and keen-ness with nonchalance/indifference.
It's a shame because it used to be a really good base - when they had a reasonable amount of crew.
Easyjet have 3 crew, but then they have ONE cabin,a non-compulsory product and no premium product.
Give them a break for goodness sake.
They throw things at you, don't offer you anything in a nice way anymore - the pride is gone.
Like so many industries now, they seem demotivated and don't seem to care.
Smiles have been replaced with withering looks, and keen-ness with nonchalance/indifference.
It's a shame because it used to be a really good base - when they had a reasonable amount of crew.
Easyjet have 3 crew, but then they have ONE cabin,a non-compulsory product and no premium product.
Give them a break for goodness sake.
If there's one thing I've always thought we had in bundles, it's pride. We wouldn't have survived as long as we have without it. I assume you had a word with the seniors in each case? If my crew were treating people with withering looks and indifference, I'd want to know about it and I'm sure you would too.
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Maybe ACAS should back away and we could negotiate on say the Graham Norton show. The bassa mob could all coordinate thier outfits and wave phallic shaped objects at the Management while we all laugh at some mincey innuendo and call everyone Nigels.
How do you expect to be taken seriously when your notice of failure actually refers to the pilot group as Nigels. Camp is so last year girls get real....................What too homophobic?.....Nah
How do you expect to be taken seriously when your notice of failure actually refers to the pilot group as Nigels. Camp is so last year girls get real....................What too homophobic?.....Nah