British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Yep I'll add my name to that list too. Not only is it underwritten by one of our major competitors, it avoids some of the major problems which plagued the other start up business class airlines, such as the lack of back up when things go wrong, the lack of onward connections, the absence of global marketing reach, the absence of a meaningful loyalty program etc etc. Its also operating from an airfield which is a darn sight easier to get to from the financial centres than Luton or Stansted.
It's quite hard to see the relevance of Open Skies to this thread, especially as the subject was only brought up by someone seeking to deflect the argument away from the current situation at BA. OS was set up to try to capture some of the European transatlantic market. Reports suggest the product was good and the service favourably received. Were it not for the recession it might even have succeeded. What it also showed was that you don't have to pay over the top to get good service on board the aircraft. That's probably not been lost on Willie either.
It's quite hard to see the relevance of Open Skies to this thread, especially as the subject was only brought up by someone seeking to deflect the argument away from the current situation at BA. OS was set up to try to capture some of the European transatlantic market. Reports suggest the product was good and the service favourably received. Were it not for the recession it might even have succeeded. What it also showed was that you don't have to pay over the top to get good service on board the aircraft. That's probably not been lost on Willie either.
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Not quite - they need to give 7 days notice of their intention to ballot and then 7 days notice of their intention to strike once the ballot is complete. The industrial action normally needs to take place within 4 weeks of the ballot. So you need to bring your timeline forwards by 21 days!
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Doh! Should read customers obviously!
Anyway, back on topic, I hear BASSA are now trying to scupper the LCY-JFK route with some undoubtedly bogus objection. I'm sure the LGW crew who'll be crewing it will welcome their Heathrow-centric 'leaders' intervention in their new premium route. When will BASSA realise that it's too late? The game is up. They've become irrelevant. BA don't care what they think anymore.
Anyway, back on topic, I hear BASSA are now trying to scupper the LCY-JFK route with some undoubtedly bogus objection. I'm sure the LGW crew who'll be crewing it will welcome their Heathrow-centric 'leaders' intervention in their new premium route. When will BASSA realise that it's too late? The game is up. They've become irrelevant. BA don't care what they think anymore.
Join Date: Dec 1998
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In the interest of furthering the debate and really nailing down the moneys involved in both sides' proposals, I note that BF has broken down why he feels that BASSA's diversion proposition does not save £60million as follows.
Would I be untoward if I were to ask for a similar reply from a pro-BASSA poster giving the reasons they feel these figures are wrong and why their proposal makes their posited savings, or should I merely wait to be excoriated on Crewforum and called a twunt?
Thanks
MrB
As you know we already have a disruption agreement and it was successfully used once this year during the snow in January. The only significant change proposed by Unite to the disruption agreement is to move to one local night instead of 2 for UK diversions of Long Range flights only. In January only 7 long range flights were diverted in the UK where crew elected to take a double night.
In using the £20m per occasion figure, Unite has unfortunately taken all of the costs incurred by BA. The vast majority of these are caused by the disruption itself i.e. snow, not the agreement restricting our crew’s flexibility.
Taking January’s snow disruption as an example, BA’s breakdown is that the costs for the entire disruption period are made up as follows:
Lost revenue: 87%
Diversion costs 6%:
Customer compensation: 2%
Hotels for crew and passengers: 4%
Total overtime: 1%
The big number here is obviously lost revenue and that is not something that the change to the disruption agreement would have any impact on, nor would it affect diversion costs or customer compensation. There are some hotel costs and some crew overtime.
In using the £20m per occasion figure, Unite has unfortunately taken all of the costs incurred by BA. The vast majority of these are caused by the disruption itself i.e. snow, not the agreement restricting our crew’s flexibility.
Taking January’s snow disruption as an example, BA’s breakdown is that the costs for the entire disruption period are made up as follows:
Lost revenue: 87%
Diversion costs 6%:
Customer compensation: 2%
Hotels for crew and passengers: 4%
Total overtime: 1%
The big number here is obviously lost revenue and that is not something that the change to the disruption agreement would have any impact on, nor would it affect diversion costs or customer compensation. There are some hotel costs and some crew overtime.
Thanks
MrB
MrBunker,
I fear you shall wait in vain "for a similar reply from a pro-BASSA poster giving the reasons they feel these figures are wrong and why their proposal makes their posited savings, ......." simply because the BASSA proposal is fundamentally and so obviously flawed. No reasonable person can defend it.
You may, of course, be inundated with flippant answers attempting to justify it but thats not something that you really want, is it?
I fear you shall wait in vain "for a similar reply from a pro-BASSA poster giving the reasons they feel these figures are wrong and why their proposal makes their posited savings, ......." simply because the BASSA proposal is fundamentally and so obviously flawed. No reasonable person can defend it.
You may, of course, be inundated with flippant answers attempting to justify it but thats not something that you really want, is it?
Join Date: Dec 1998
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Indeed I don't but, mindful of the moderator's call for cool heads, I really wanted to put something on the "table" and ask for it to be debated and, if able, debunked or counteracted.
Hey ho.
Hey ho.
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Figures are just that - figures.
Depending on what side of the line you stand, you can read lots into a set of figures, some pro points and some anti points.
BA making huge profits one year followed by 'huge' losses the next.
VS making a profit in hard times.........
BP's profits down to only £1.9 billion!
It also reminds me of a recent conversation with the heavy captain on a Singapore flt recently, where he was trying to justify his flying as a second captain rather than another F/O.
Maybe we should wait for the end of the cooling off process to hear Unite's version of the 'figures'.
So it all depends which side of the line your standing on...and that from not a 'pro Bassa supporter'.
Depending on what side of the line you stand, you can read lots into a set of figures, some pro points and some anti points.
BA making huge profits one year followed by 'huge' losses the next.
VS making a profit in hard times.........
BP's profits down to only £1.9 billion!
It also reminds me of a recent conversation with the heavy captain on a Singapore flt recently, where he was trying to justify his flying as a second captain rather than another F/O.
Maybe we should wait for the end of the cooling off process to hear Unite's version of the 'figures'.
So it all depends which side of the line your standing on...and that from not a 'pro Bassa supporter'.
Join Date: Sep 2005
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CM...my reference to BA and open skies was not an attempt to divert attention from this topic.Open skies,its creation and expansion,is yet another example of disastrous and financially suicidal decisions taken by BA management.The result of these seemingly,neverending,dubious business mistakes results in the very situation we now face,where employees are expected to take the pain for attrocious management blunders.
The economic downturn is of great concern,but trading conditions will improve in time.I fear long term management of this great company has to change if real success and stability can be achieved.
The economic downturn is of great concern,but trading conditions will improve in time.I fear long term management of this great company has to change if real success and stability can be achieved.
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But CFC,
Figures are exactly that. BASSA would, in my mind, do themselves great credit if they were to properly explain their costings, something that they have always had legal ability to do. It's all headline figures and no explanations. In essence, much like your reply, they sound good but seem largely composed of rhetoric. Surely, the adults who are to be affected by this deserve all the information they can possibly get in order to make their minds up?
Please, to anyone who has them, lets get facts (verifiable, determined and not "Because I only believe what BASSA/BA say") on here and debate them. High minded and highly emotional insult trading is demeaning both the debate and the wider image of us employees of BA.
MrB
Figures are exactly that. BASSA would, in my mind, do themselves great credit if they were to properly explain their costings, something that they have always had legal ability to do. It's all headline figures and no explanations. In essence, much like your reply, they sound good but seem largely composed of rhetoric. Surely, the adults who are to be affected by this deserve all the information they can possibly get in order to make their minds up?
Please, to anyone who has them, lets get facts (verifiable, determined and not "Because I only believe what BASSA/BA say") on here and debate them. High minded and highly emotional insult trading is demeaning both the debate and the wider image of us employees of BA.
MrB
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Open skies at the time was probally a good idea ,but saying to the man who runs it that you can continue trading until your allotted money runs out smacks of poor management.
The plug should have been pulled sooner when it was clear to the rest of the aviation world it wasn't going anywhere in the current economic climate.
Who's going to be the fall guys this time ? It won't be Walsh and that's for sure.
The plug should have been pulled sooner when it was clear to the rest of the aviation world it wasn't going anywhere in the current economic climate.
Who's going to be the fall guys this time ? It won't be Walsh and that's for sure.
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I have to more or less agree with CM on his timeline. This new contract for all is starting to (unfortunately) sound inevitable. We would need a miracle to get some form of agreement after the "cooling off" period.
MrB, I'd like to see the union's cost saving claims in more details. I don't think it's a lot to ask, really. However, I'm not holding my breath (as usual), as it seems to me as well that the figures were more or less taken out of thin air. To the Bassa peeps, please prove me wrong here.
Gg
MrB, I'd like to see the union's cost saving claims in more details. I don't think it's a lot to ask, really. However, I'm not holding my breath (as usual), as it seems to me as well that the figures were more or less taken out of thin air. To the Bassa peeps, please prove me wrong here.
Gg
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If OpenSkies is shutting down or contracting, could BA use the OS crew (BA trained and security-checked) in place of BA crew if there was a strike? Which leads to the next question. How many OS CC are there?
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I just want to say that I will definately go on strike if it comes to that. I do believe we need to fight for our job because at the end of the day I pay my mortgage and nobody else. I am happy for the flight deck reaching an agreement too bed their agreement is linked to us and the ground staff reaching ours. I do not believe I qwn anything to the flight deck they are not related to me and they are not my family so I stick for what I believe I just wish they would stop morning when they get on the aircraft and respect our choice as we respect theirs. Respect after all is earned and not given.
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GS-Alpha,
I don't really agree - I think BASSA's breakdown of figures is relevant. It raises the debate beyond barroom brawling and allows adult minded crew to judge for themselves where the truth lies. In that sense it also doesn't provide BASSA with a post-dispute hidey-hole within which they can hide whilst waving around the £173 million pound flag saying it was all bad BA. For that reason, I suspect we won't see them as it takes away a post-defeat (if defeat is their destiny) retreat. Sad though that the likes of Gg et al are denied the opportunity to apply their evidently capable rationalising skills and see both parts.
I don't really agree - I think BASSA's breakdown of figures is relevant. It raises the debate beyond barroom brawling and allows adult minded crew to judge for themselves where the truth lies. In that sense it also doesn't provide BASSA with a post-dispute hidey-hole within which they can hide whilst waving around the £173 million pound flag saying it was all bad BA. For that reason, I suspect we won't see them as it takes away a post-defeat (if defeat is their destiny) retreat. Sad though that the likes of Gg et al are denied the opportunity to apply their evidently capable rationalising skills and see both parts.
Like others here I find it sad, but not unexpected, that when an issue which deserves PROPER debate and discussion is brought up all we get is rhetoric, shouting and screaming.
Over the last few weeks I have had the opportunity to discuss this whole sorry affair with numerous friends in cabin crew. They were all totally dismayed that they were not receiving proper info from BASSA, but were also dismayed that they were not receiving any info from BA. To their credit they did admit that they probably would not believe what BA said anyway!!
Over the last few weeks I have had the opportunity to discuss this whole sorry affair with numerous friends in cabin crew. They were all totally dismayed that they were not receiving proper info from BASSA, but were also dismayed that they were not receiving any info from BA. To their credit they did admit that they probably would not believe what BA said anyway!!
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Mr Bunker - as frustrating as it is you will never know whats going on DURING negotiations. This applies to all unions - balpa included.
Neither BA nor UNITE will divulge the full set of facts till all is settled.
For crew to continue harping on about not knowing what is going on when regularly being told no details will be given by both sides just creates more unrest. To get a feel of how the talks are going then visit either the Bassa or Amicus branch offices.
Lets all hope this saga is finished soon!
Neither BA nor UNITE will divulge the full set of facts till all is settled.
For crew to continue harping on about not knowing what is going on when regularly being told no details will be given by both sides just creates more unrest. To get a feel of how the talks are going then visit either the Bassa or Amicus branch offices.
Lets all hope this saga is finished soon!
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Mr Bunker
I hear what you say and agree that during the aftermath of these proceedings, crew need to be made aware that they have been poorly represented by their reps.
I hear what you say and agree that during the aftermath of these proceedings, crew need to be made aware that they have been poorly represented by their reps.
Let us hope they do a good job.
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You would not believe the hours that are being put in by reps from both branches - these negotiations are so important to the lives of CC, both present and future, so they are working really hard to represent us as best they can.
A worthwhile way to spend some of their unbelievable hours?