British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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I flew on a BA 321 , 2 hour flight with a club capacity of about 20 seats, they had 7 cabin attendants. 2 in club and 5 in economy.
In contrast I flew with LH on a 1 hour flight in a 737-300 2 class cabins both full and only 3 crew. They offered same service as BA and had time to spare.
A good on board manager is required (purser?)
I guess the more crew there are the more time they have to chat in the galleys with each other.
In contrast I flew with LH on a 1 hour flight in a 737-300 2 class cabins both full and only 3 crew. They offered same service as BA and had time to spare.
A good on board manager is required (purser?)
I guess the more crew there are the more time they have to chat in the galleys with each other.
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What is rubbish about pointing out how two different airlines manage to provide the same service to a completely different standard with the very same crew complement?
Drinks services only are provided by both AA and jetBlue on short domestic flights; both flights were the same duration. jetBlue crew presence in the cabin was continual and no trolleys used; AA crew retreated to the galley after a trolley service.
This applies to BA - though a different service from US airlies, crew complement and direct comparisons of service between LH and BA are entirely valid.
Drinks services only are provided by both AA and jetBlue on short domestic flights; both flights were the same duration. jetBlue crew presence in the cabin was continual and no trolleys used; AA crew retreated to the galley after a trolley service.
This applies to BA - though a different service from US airlies, crew complement and direct comparisons of service between LH and BA are entirely valid.
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Comparisons can be valid Re-heat. Often they are not, because the person who does the comparing only sees the end product; in this case the service provided. While knowing nothing about the background, the rostering practices, the rest times, seniority structure, remuneration etc etc etc of the CC being compared.
Still and all, when you post
you demonstrate conclusively that your understanding of cabin service is absolutely zero. And that your reasoning is simple to the point of irrelevance.
Shame, because up to now I had the impression you sort of knew what you were talking about.
Still and all, when you post
you demonstrate conclusively that your understanding of cabin service is absolutely zero. And that your reasoning is simple to the point of irrelevance.
Shame, because up to now I had the impression you sort of knew what you were talking about.
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BA does not do well servicewise,- at point of delivery =to the customers in comparaison with other carriers in Europe. They can be excellent or they can be terrible and it's a matter largely of attitude. For sheer hard work and cheerful delivery both Easyjet and flyBE are consistently better,- and that's with 4 sector days on EZY and often more, though shorter on BE. Both are paid much less and have less crew per passenger. BA Gatwick is also consistently better ,- both long and short haul than LHR, so again , its' not about money, turnaround times and these things,- it's about attitude to going all out to get the job done as efficiently and cheerfully as possible.
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Jetlegs"
That sounds really good, but what does it mean??? My experience of cabin crew postings on this subject are more soundbite than substance, so if you could expand on what you mean with the above that would be great.
you demonstrate conclusively that your understanding of cabin service is absolutely zero. And that your reasoning is simple to the point of irrelevance.
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Interestingly, BA have just announced in an internal email that there will be no more food in shorthaul Y - everything in Bands 1-3 after 10am will be replaced with drinks and "sky bites" - i.e. birdseed.
Presumably, even less need for above-regulation cabin crew now...
Presumably, even less need for above-regulation cabin crew now...
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I'm not sure what the problem of Re-Heats post is - he/she is simply saying that the Cabin Service at other airlines they have flown with, with less crew, can be superior/equally as good as that at BA where some flights could be considered overcrewed. I have a fair idea of how cabin service works (having done it for some time) and am not sure where his conclusion that the "experience onboard", shall we say, is not governed by the number of crew onboard.
I have absolutely no complaints about the flights I have had as a Pax with BA, the crew have always been excellent, friendly and most importantly given me a free beer! But equally as a regular user of Flybe I would say, (though I have had to bring my own bottle so to speak), they're onboard teams are usually very cheerful and on short hops still take the time (2 of them on the Dash) to make you feel welcome. I don't miss the free beer because I have paid less, they get me closer to my door than BA does, and because they offer the service they advertise with a smile.
Yes the more bits you add to the product the more time it takes, and therefore, the more useful an extra pair of hands are, but then I remember travelling on a Charter carrier on a 1hr30min flight where 3 crew provided drinks, hot food, duty free and a paid second bar all without much complaint. It can be done though, it is fair to say, BA crew didn't join for the Charter lifestyle I suppose - but then you have to ask yourself - is their really room for that sort of luxury anymore?
Sad as it is - when the Southwest Airlines model became "Pandemic" the good ol days were the victim.
I have absolutely no complaints about the flights I have had as a Pax with BA, the crew have always been excellent, friendly and most importantly given me a free beer! But equally as a regular user of Flybe I would say, (though I have had to bring my own bottle so to speak), they're onboard teams are usually very cheerful and on short hops still take the time (2 of them on the Dash) to make you feel welcome. I don't miss the free beer because I have paid less, they get me closer to my door than BA does, and because they offer the service they advertise with a smile.
Yes the more bits you add to the product the more time it takes, and therefore, the more useful an extra pair of hands are, but then I remember travelling on a Charter carrier on a 1hr30min flight where 3 crew provided drinks, hot food, duty free and a paid second bar all without much complaint. It can be done though, it is fair to say, BA crew didn't join for the Charter lifestyle I suppose - but then you have to ask yourself - is their really room for that sort of luxury anymore?
Sad as it is - when the Southwest Airlines model became "Pandemic" the good ol days were the victim.
Last edited by Matt101; 21st Jul 2009 at 08:07.
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I'm not actually comparing those two to BA at all, as - which jetlegs rightly points out - they are not directly comparable to BA. The point was to reinforce the point that valid comparisons between BA and airlines providing similar service - say LH - are valid (and have also been largely ignored so far in this thread except in relation to the LGW operation).
A comparison under different circumstances between jetBlue and AA (with a different product from BA entirely) reveals completely different service quality under otherwise equal circumstances. Yes, I am completely aware of rostering practices in the US, seniority structure at JB compared to AA, and the fact that AA do the bare minumum on their flights while JB have built it around the "product" and the multitude of other background influencers, none of which should have an end effect on the customer. It returns to demeanour and motivation of the employees.
If therefore LH are able to provide the same quality of service as BA with legal minimum crew, that demonstrates that providing that service with legal minimum crew complement in BA should indeed be possible to at least the same quality, but also that the crew complement is totally unrelated to service standards to the extent that duties can be fulfilled in the time available given business class size.
I am a realist - if you do wish to reduce crew to absolute legal minimum, you may have product degredation on short flight time services with maximum Club accomodation simply due to the time allowed for the service that has to be provided: a direct comparison with LGW and LHR services to AMS is perhaps impossible unless you know Club loads and compare like for like. The point is that, if on average LH is able to provide a comparable service with fewer crew per aircraft, it should be possible at BA as well, business class accomodation being equal.
I return yet again to my BA inter-Germany example in the age when full meals were served to all.
Returning to demeanour and motivation of crew - it is clear and I think something that everyone on this thread can agree upon that cabin crew (and indeed most) management within BA is terrible. The basics of employee motivation are impossible in a poisoned environment that has been facilitated both by the union and management, engendering what have ultimately become uncompetitive working practices, hidden by a strong monopoly position at Heathrow that has enabled higher than average yields to cover this and many other costs that BA carries as a legacy from its past.
However, that is not a defence of the status quo.
Unfortunately or not, I know exactly what I am talking about both within and outside of BA.
Apologies if my initial post on the above was not as clear as I have now made it, but it was to highlight above all demeanour and motivation of employees.
A comparison under different circumstances between jetBlue and AA (with a different product from BA entirely) reveals completely different service quality under otherwise equal circumstances. Yes, I am completely aware of rostering practices in the US, seniority structure at JB compared to AA, and the fact that AA do the bare minumum on their flights while JB have built it around the "product" and the multitude of other background influencers, none of which should have an end effect on the customer. It returns to demeanour and motivation of the employees.
If therefore LH are able to provide the same quality of service as BA with legal minimum crew, that demonstrates that providing that service with legal minimum crew complement in BA should indeed be possible to at least the same quality, but also that the crew complement is totally unrelated to service standards to the extent that duties can be fulfilled in the time available given business class size.
I am a realist - if you do wish to reduce crew to absolute legal minimum, you may have product degredation on short flight time services with maximum Club accomodation simply due to the time allowed for the service that has to be provided: a direct comparison with LGW and LHR services to AMS is perhaps impossible unless you know Club loads and compare like for like. The point is that, if on average LH is able to provide a comparable service with fewer crew per aircraft, it should be possible at BA as well, business class accomodation being equal.
I return yet again to my BA inter-Germany example in the age when full meals were served to all.
Returning to demeanour and motivation of crew - it is clear and I think something that everyone on this thread can agree upon that cabin crew (and indeed most) management within BA is terrible. The basics of employee motivation are impossible in a poisoned environment that has been facilitated both by the union and management, engendering what have ultimately become uncompetitive working practices, hidden by a strong monopoly position at Heathrow that has enabled higher than average yields to cover this and many other costs that BA carries as a legacy from its past.
However, that is not a defence of the status quo.
Unfortunately or not, I know exactly what I am talking about both within and outside of BA.
Apologies if my initial post on the above was not as clear as I have now made it, but it was to highlight above all demeanour and motivation of employees.
Last edited by Re-Heat; 21st Jul 2009 at 05:30.
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I wonder how the BASSA royalty are feeling at the moment....
If they don't call for a strike ballot in the next week or so there is zero chance of any disruption during the "busy summer holiday period" as the press like to call it.
I have no doubt that if they try and rush a ballot to force a strike to happen during the summer, they will end up in court faster than you can say "Spanish Practices"
Come on Willie, string them along for 2 more weeks, then they are Scr£wed!
Can't wait until the "new way of working" is imposed at BASSA Fortress LHR.
If they don't call for a strike ballot in the next week or so there is zero chance of any disruption during the "busy summer holiday period" as the press like to call it.
I have no doubt that if they try and rush a ballot to force a strike to happen during the summer, they will end up in court faster than you can say "Spanish Practices"
Come on Willie, string them along for 2 more weeks, then they are Scr£wed!
Can't wait until the "new way of working" is imposed at BASSA Fortress LHR.
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Although I think the CC unions have done a great job over many many years, they should have made a deal of some sort before now, they now will be picking up a hugh tab for their members, swine flu will ensure the CC catch up fast track.
CC at the flagg carrier will never ever be the same when these changes come.
CC at the flagg carrier will never ever be the same when these changes come.
Attitude
There is something in this point about "attitude".
I was on a much delayed flight (late evening) with EZY to Heraklion about 10 days ago. Their tiny group of stewards/esses, did brilliantly with some very grumpy and tired passengers.
It is amazing what a smile can do, compared with those of an "entitlement" attitude.
Their "leader" - the Captain - did set a very good example.
I was on a much delayed flight (late evening) with EZY to Heraklion about 10 days ago. Their tiny group of stewards/esses, did brilliantly with some very grumpy and tired passengers.
It is amazing what a smile can do, compared with those of an "entitlement" attitude.
Their "leader" - the Captain - did set a very good example.
Interestingly, BA have just announced in an internal email that there will be no more food in shorthaul Y - everything in Bands 1-3 after 10am will be replaced with drinks and "sky bites" - i.e. birdseed.
How are the line engineers supposed to survive for chrissake?
This is intolerable!
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You have to applaud Walsh on what many perceive will be a total victory over the idiots who control bassa.Perhaps then he will turn his sights on what is an inefficient useless bloated and corrupt IFS managment.
Then the day will arrive when CC have a fair rostering system which like the pilots they have some degree of control over.This will then lead to a fall in sickness and increase in morale giving a better customer service.
Then the day will arrive when CC have a fair rostering system which like the pilots they have some degree of control over.This will then lead to a fall in sickness and increase in morale giving a better customer service.
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Oh isn't this a nice cosy club with everybody agreeing and patting reach other on the back when the anti-BASSA diatribe comes out.
Applaud Walsh? Are you kidding? A total incompetent who has cost BA hundreds of millions in fines, fuel hedging T5 and so on.
Cabin crew already have a fair rostering system compared to a junior captain or co-pilot on the bottom of the bid line, doing someother senior pilots work for no credit.
PiB,
You really do spout the most complete load of TOSH!!!
I have not managed to read anything on this forum for a few days and have just read about 10 pages in one go. Your posts pop up like a nasty rash and each time you spout utter rubbish. Stirrer or what!!
Under the worst cirumstances to EVER hit the aviation industry I think WW is doing a pretty good job. I certainly do not condone the bribe scandal, BUT have you considered that we did not actually lose money on the deal!!
Cabin crew have a fair rostering system.......................well that will be why the sickness rates in BA cabin crew are the highest in UK aviation then. That will also explain why I so often hear complaints about not getting the proper days off. That will explain just exactly why cabin crew end up with so many 'availables' and standbys.
As for your comment comparing rostering for cabin crew and pilots - your knowledge of the process is so completely lacking that there is NO point in bothering to explain.
Several times over the last week I have had cabin crew ask for my take on the present situation. On each occasion I have done my best to present them with the facts - and then answer their questions to the best of my ability. BALPA presented their membership with the facts, listened to feedback from members and THEN negotiated.
I really wish my friends in the cabin crew community all the best. However, while BASSAs idea of negotiation is to shout NO, and then ask the question, I fear the worst for my friends!
You really do spout the most complete load of TOSH!!!
I have not managed to read anything on this forum for a few days and have just read about 10 pages in one go. Your posts pop up like a nasty rash and each time you spout utter rubbish. Stirrer or what!!
Under the worst cirumstances to EVER hit the aviation industry I think WW is doing a pretty good job. I certainly do not condone the bribe scandal, BUT have you considered that we did not actually lose money on the deal!!
Cabin crew have a fair rostering system.......................well that will be why the sickness rates in BA cabin crew are the highest in UK aviation then. That will also explain why I so often hear complaints about not getting the proper days off. That will explain just exactly why cabin crew end up with so many 'availables' and standbys.
As for your comment comparing rostering for cabin crew and pilots - your knowledge of the process is so completely lacking that there is NO point in bothering to explain.
Several times over the last week I have had cabin crew ask for my take on the present situation. On each occasion I have done my best to present them with the facts - and then answer their questions to the best of my ability. BALPA presented their membership with the facts, listened to feedback from members and THEN negotiated.
I really wish my friends in the cabin crew community all the best. However, while BASSAs idea of negotiation is to shout NO, and then ask the question, I fear the worst for my friends!
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A fair rostering system? In what sense is it fair? Many crew on WW are unpleased with the current rostering system and for not getting any "good" trips not having seen Sydney since the 2000 Summer Olympics. Speak to the ICC's in Singapore and they will confirm, or at least insinuate, what Carnage Matey is saying. They see the same crew doing the Sydney trips all the time. How did this happen... ?
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Well pointed out PIB, but all the anti-Bassa won't notice poor cabin skills. After all it suits them to see cheap CC. Puts the share price up for their future bonus. Cheap labour is how it is evolving in the UK. Short term view will cost the UK it's quality reputation. No wonder the likes of Nuigini are bailing out.
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PiB,
I won't talk about bid line, but I will talk about this "cheap" crew you keep rambling on about.
Ba has not asked for a pay cut for anyone. Bassa offered a pay cut! Bassa offered the New Crew contract in exchange for no NewFleet. So, basically, it's Bassa that are "dumbing down" of crew by paying them less.
I don't expect you to understand this, as you've failed to understand anything in this thread.
I will add that the way you talk about "cheap" crew is rather ignorant, and as I've said before, you're insinuating that us lot at LGW do a rubbish job and are stupid because we're paid less than LHR crew. You obviously don't understand how the business works, as otherwise you'd not say what you say.
Gg
I won't talk about bid line, but I will talk about this "cheap" crew you keep rambling on about.
Ba has not asked for a pay cut for anyone. Bassa offered a pay cut! Bassa offered the New Crew contract in exchange for no NewFleet. So, basically, it's Bassa that are "dumbing down" of crew by paying them less.
I don't expect you to understand this, as you've failed to understand anything in this thread.
I will add that the way you talk about "cheap" crew is rather ignorant, and as I've said before, you're insinuating that us lot at LGW do a rubbish job and are stupid because we're paid less than LHR crew. You obviously don't understand how the business works, as otherwise you'd not say what you say.
Gg