British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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SP #105
"Also airlines in the UK generate a lot of income for the goverment via APD"
APD currently generates about £900 million per year. That's the equivalent of about 0.4% on the basic rate of income tax. It's a flea bite in terms of the government's tax raising.
APD currently generates about £900 million per year. That's the equivalent of about 0.4% on the basic rate of income tax. It's a flea bite in terms of the government's tax raising.
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Yes Walnut (post 72). Gordon Brown has ruined Final Salary schemes in the UK with his steath tax grab on pension tax credits when he was Chancellor. UK pensions schemes have lost around £100 billion up to now.
Robber Brown's pension tax grab certainly did not help, but will only account for around £300m of a deficit estimated at around £3bn.
Can't see any government guaranting a DB pension fund just because yields are low and everybody is living longer. Any DB scheme except there own ofc.
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So all the "hardliners" are there at the same time Witraz? More rubbish.
As in April's meeting, it will be a cross section of cabin crew who happen to be home on the day.
There are over 11,500 members in BASSA. However I predict that a huge majority will be taking a 'hardline'. Most of BASSA's members are female, who fortunately are willing to stand up to a bullying, opportunistic and incompetent BA management.
As in April's meeting, it will be a cross section of cabin crew who happen to be home on the day.
There are over 11,500 members in BASSA. However I predict that a huge majority will be taking a 'hardline'. Most of BASSA's members are female, who fortunately are willing to stand up to a bullying, opportunistic and incompetent BA management.
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I think Super Stall that there needs to be a root and branch rethink in the UK on how pensions are funded as clearly the current system is far from adequate in the UK.
How does Air France provide retirement benefits for its staff for instance?
How does Air France provide retirement benefits for its staff for instance?
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Yawn yawn, most of BASSAs members are female etc, this is bullying and sexism and badism and whatever other ism you care to name. I double dare you to take it to a tribunal, I could do with a laugh! When all the militants meet at Kempton on the 6th can you remind them to all to jump with joy, whoop and cheer when they have a show of hands for a strike ballot? It makes for great TV when you celebrate ruining peoples holidays.
Now if I remember correctly Air France crews pensions are part of a nationwide fund that incorporates crew from several airlines and is partly funded by the government. Problem is the French government is sitting on an even bigger pensions timebomb than we are!
Now if I remember correctly Air France crews pensions are part of a nationwide fund that incorporates crew from several airlines and is partly funded by the government. Problem is the French government is sitting on an even bigger pensions timebomb than we are!
I Have Control
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Job losses
A lot of people in aviation are looking forward to seeing BA's quote "overpaid, underworked" cabin crew lose their jobs. I hear them say this, CC from other companies including my own.
If this happens, I will be sad. It will probably mean other people in related functions will also lose their jobs. Not really fair.
I just wish the BA folk would help out their colleagues and their company, although it means new and lower T & C's.
I feel they will not agree with this viewpoint. Unfortunate.
If this happens, I will be sad. It will probably mean other people in related functions will also lose their jobs. Not really fair.
I just wish the BA folk would help out their colleagues and their company, although it means new and lower T & C's.
I feel they will not agree with this viewpoint. Unfortunate.
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Stall pusher
Good luck as you drive yourselves out of a job. I have enjoyed flying BA for many years because of the professional aircrew. You wretched dinosaurs should face reality; get real or see a great airline go under.
Alternatively, apply for a job at Ryanair. Don't hold your breath for an interview!
Alternatively, apply for a job at Ryanair. Don't hold your breath for an interview!
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SP #112
"I think...that there needs to be a root and branch rethink in the UK on how pensions are funded as clearly the current system is far from adequate in the UK"
I think you'll find the rethink has already happened. For the past 15 years companies have been closing defined benefit pension schemes to new entrants, reducing benefits (eg linking to average as opposed to final pay) etc. Contributions to defined contribution pensions (ie those where the member takes all the investment risk) now exceed contributions to defined benefit schemes. There is no likelihood of any return to DB schemes. They are just too expensive.
I agree with your second point. Unfortunately it's not possible to have a grown up debate about pension provision, but that's primarily the fault of politicians who have exceptionally good pension provision, courtesy of taxpayers, and don't want to engage in debate knowing it will immediately focus on their pensions and the £750 billion of unfunded public sector liabilities that UK taxpayers are already on the hook for.
Finally, I know from previous posts that you feel "the government" (ie taxpayers) ought to cover pension scheme liabilities. Presumably you see this as a salvation for BA with its scheme deficit. Unfortunately you, personally, would almost certainly lose money if the government took your approach. Why? Well I think we can assume they'd have to treat all schemes similarly. BA's pensions are about 10-15% underfunded, or £3 billion in absolute terms. It was announced this week that the BT pension scheme, the largest in the UK, is 43% underfunded, which I reckon is somewhere between £45-50 billion in absolute terms. You'd have to pay your share of tax to cough up the £45 billion in return for receiving your share of £3 billion. It's not a good deal for anyone at BA, I'd suggest.
I think you'll find the rethink has already happened. For the past 15 years companies have been closing defined benefit pension schemes to new entrants, reducing benefits (eg linking to average as opposed to final pay) etc. Contributions to defined contribution pensions (ie those where the member takes all the investment risk) now exceed contributions to defined benefit schemes. There is no likelihood of any return to DB schemes. They are just too expensive.
I agree with your second point. Unfortunately it's not possible to have a grown up debate about pension provision, but that's primarily the fault of politicians who have exceptionally good pension provision, courtesy of taxpayers, and don't want to engage in debate knowing it will immediately focus on their pensions and the £750 billion of unfunded public sector liabilities that UK taxpayers are already on the hook for.
Finally, I know from previous posts that you feel "the government" (ie taxpayers) ought to cover pension scheme liabilities. Presumably you see this as a salvation for BA with its scheme deficit. Unfortunately you, personally, would almost certainly lose money if the government took your approach. Why? Well I think we can assume they'd have to treat all schemes similarly. BA's pensions are about 10-15% underfunded, or £3 billion in absolute terms. It was announced this week that the BT pension scheme, the largest in the UK, is 43% underfunded, which I reckon is somewhere between £45-50 billion in absolute terms. You'd have to pay your share of tax to cough up the £45 billion in return for receiving your share of £3 billion. It's not a good deal for anyone at BA, I'd suggest.
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HiFlyer14, you stated "Yes CFC we can all pick and choose an article from a paper supporting whatever we want to believe. After all, we all earn £29000 don't we??"
The 'article' I think you are referring to is actually the data published independently by the UK CAA. The data has been published annually, since 1994, I think.
It shows the cost of employing the employees. So it includes Pension, National Insurance, Uniform, Training etc.
So just so that you are aware, it says on average it costs BA around £29000 to employ each Cabin Crew member. Not, that all earn £29000.
However, it also highlights that it costs BA twice the amount it costs Virgin to employ its Cabin Crew.
As we are paid as Air Cabin Crew, and hence can reasonably be expected to go flying, there is no way that our remuneration is 'minimum wage', as some of my colleagues have been saying that it is.
The 'article' I think you are referring to is actually the data published independently by the UK CAA. The data has been published annually, since 1994, I think.
It shows the cost of employing the employees. So it includes Pension, National Insurance, Uniform, Training etc.
So just so that you are aware, it says on average it costs BA around £29000 to employ each Cabin Crew member. Not, that all earn £29000.
However, it also highlights that it costs BA twice the amount it costs Virgin to employ its Cabin Crew.
As we are paid as Air Cabin Crew, and hence can reasonably be expected to go flying, there is no way that our remuneration is 'minimum wage', as some of my colleagues have been saying that it is.
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The membership of BASSA are absolutely incandescent.
The CC I have just chatted to over the past 5 days are indeed incandescent. However they are incandescent at the total lack of information being given to them about a situation that will have a huge affect on their jobs and lifestyle.
If I am being truly honest then about 1 in 50 CC are real, heavy BASSA supporters. The rest are concerned primarily for their jobs and their futures and THEY, not me or my interpretation but THEY are concerned at the mess BASSA have left them in.
If it does come to a ballot then I feel that BASSA may well get a shock when their 1500 massive turnout at Kempton Park from 14000 becomes a much smaller voting minority and most of the clear thinking CC walk away from BASSA. In these tough times the quieter CC are thinking it will be better to be new contract than no contract.
BASSA have left it all too late and are now throwing their toys out of the cot because they failed to reach an agreement by the deadline.
Don't forget in the pay statistics that 25% of the top crew take 60% of the wage bill.
Stall Pusher
If you had done some research you would have found out that BA is the only major airline in Europe with the pension funds on it's books.
Air France personnel's pensions are arranged through a national fund for all flight crew in France that is separate from the company, and supervised by the french government. A deficit will not weigh on the company's financial situation, the worst that will happen is that employer and employee contributions go up and pensions are frozen or lowered by a small percentage to enhance the coverage factor. In the event of bankruptcy pensions are not affected.
In KLM the pension funds for pilots and CC are specifically for that company, but privately managed and supervised by the dutch national bank. The fund is NOT on the books with KLM, so a deficit will not weigh on the company's financial situation (again: worst thing is higher conributions or frozen payments). The money is safe in the case of bankruptcy.
Don't know about Lufthansa, but I suspect it will be the same for them.
BA is in serious trouble over it's pension deficit, and it has a direct influence on financial viability and creditability. AF-KL was recently able to raise 660 million Euro through convertible bonds (they wanted 540 million but the emission was overwritten by 120 million), I seriously doubt that people are willing to invest in BA in the same way with this gaping hole in it's balance sheet...
You guys better strike a deal fast!
Air France personnel's pensions are arranged through a national fund for all flight crew in France that is separate from the company, and supervised by the french government. A deficit will not weigh on the company's financial situation, the worst that will happen is that employer and employee contributions go up and pensions are frozen or lowered by a small percentage to enhance the coverage factor. In the event of bankruptcy pensions are not affected.
In KLM the pension funds for pilots and CC are specifically for that company, but privately managed and supervised by the dutch national bank. The fund is NOT on the books with KLM, so a deficit will not weigh on the company's financial situation (again: worst thing is higher conributions or frozen payments). The money is safe in the case of bankruptcy.
Don't know about Lufthansa, but I suspect it will be the same for them.
BA is in serious trouble over it's pension deficit, and it has a direct influence on financial viability and creditability. AF-KL was recently able to raise 660 million Euro through convertible bonds (they wanted 540 million but the emission was overwritten by 120 million), I seriously doubt that people are willing to invest in BA in the same way with this gaping hole in it's balance sheet...
You guys better strike a deal fast!
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What arrogance. Many don't work in BA as there are other great airlines in the UK other than BA. Just goes to show how much the BASSA castle is built on sand...
Brilliant. You're prepared to absolutely screw my generation, who not only has no opportunity to have a DB scheme, but also is paying through the nose for the excesses of your generation's scheme liabilities.
You can be guaranteed inter-generational warfare as well if you continue down that road!
Perhaps a basic degree of research might help you look more informed and less reactionary...you implied a position without having done research and were proven quite incorrect in your assumption.
(I note that SP appears to have retracted the ingratitude quoted above by deleting his/her post).
The government should guarantee UK final salary pensions as it guarantees gold plated state pensions.
You can be guaranteed inter-generational warfare as well if you continue down that road!
Why should I bother looking at what other countries provide. I asked the question
(I note that SP appears to have retracted the ingratitude quoted above by deleting his/her post).
Stall Pusher
You asked a question and I answered it for you. It is apparently too much effort to say "thank you"...
If that is the same attitude you display towards the clients that pay your salary it is no wonder that BA's premium passengers are running away
Good luck, you'll need it.
If that is the same attitude you display towards the clients that pay your salary it is no wonder that BA's premium passengers are running away
Good luck, you'll need it.
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SP,
When is BASSA going to wake up and look over its LHR fortress walls and see what is occuring in the real world.
Airlines are laying off staff all over the world. The recession is hitting airlines particularly hard as, with the dramatic rise in oil prices showed, we as an industry, are open to the foibles of many, many other sectors of the business community.
Why should BA land be any different? Why, when other airlines are shedding jobs, cutting routes, grounding aircraft and scrabbling for bank loans should BA be making it all up?
The final salary pensions schemes were killed when Robber Brown started reneging on the tax incentives put there to safeguard future accruals by the Conservative government. GB's 'safe hands' approach to the UK economy was fuelled by pension fund tax rapes. Sad but true. Now, in the coming post New Labour utopia, the country is broke, pension funds are broke and we, as tax payers, have to carry the burden of the £1.2 Trillion Government pension fund? Fair, nope. Taxing the future generations before they are born? Yep.
The Government must sort out the pension funds for the Public Sector but that is another debate. Who and why should private funds be guaranteed? How can the tax payer be expected to pay into a private fund and guarantee it at the same time? If a private pension fund has no money in the pot, ala BA, then it needs to be closed to both future and current employees before the deficit kills the company.
Unfortunately your posts over the past weeks have shown a tunnel mentality where the word owes BASSA a favour and BASSA can live and exist outside the general rules of business.
No, it can't. It is about time that the leadership (sic) of BASSA recognised that and started to represent their members and not just themselves.
When is BASSA going to wake up and look over its LHR fortress walls and see what is occuring in the real world.
Airlines are laying off staff all over the world. The recession is hitting airlines particularly hard as, with the dramatic rise in oil prices showed, we as an industry, are open to the foibles of many, many other sectors of the business community.
Why should BA land be any different? Why, when other airlines are shedding jobs, cutting routes, grounding aircraft and scrabbling for bank loans should BA be making it all up?
The final salary pensions schemes were killed when Robber Brown started reneging on the tax incentives put there to safeguard future accruals by the Conservative government. GB's 'safe hands' approach to the UK economy was fuelled by pension fund tax rapes. Sad but true. Now, in the coming post New Labour utopia, the country is broke, pension funds are broke and we, as tax payers, have to carry the burden of the £1.2 Trillion Government pension fund? Fair, nope. Taxing the future generations before they are born? Yep.
The Government must sort out the pension funds for the Public Sector but that is another debate. Who and why should private funds be guaranteed? How can the tax payer be expected to pay into a private fund and guarantee it at the same time? If a private pension fund has no money in the pot, ala BA, then it needs to be closed to both future and current employees before the deficit kills the company.
Unfortunately your posts over the past weeks have shown a tunnel mentality where the word owes BASSA a favour and BASSA can live and exist outside the general rules of business.
No, it can't. It is about time that the leadership (sic) of BASSA recognised that and started to represent their members and not just themselves.
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From the pilot meeting with Willie last night a question asked was why cc are not being told what's going on by the company, just digesting BASSA newsletters.
The answer was that it was agreed that DURING the talks no information would be divulged by EITHER side due to the changing nature of negotiations.
(BALPA kept that promise during their negotiations, it was slightly frustrating but stopped hype and hysteria)
BA has kept to that, hence no comms.
BASSA could not keep quiet hence all the emotional newsletters.
As the deadline has passed BA will shortly be communicating directly with cabin crew so they have the opportunity to hear the other side of the story if they wish to listen.
With balanced comms and the introduction of ACAS things WILL progress.
It may not be to everyone's liking but it was clear that it WILL happen to ensure the future of the company.
The BASSA meeting on Monday will be too early to serve any purpose, it will just fire up the militants.
A good union would delay it until BA has put out it's comms and ACAS has had an input. A GOOD union I said!
Good luck all.
The answer was that it was agreed that DURING the talks no information would be divulged by EITHER side due to the changing nature of negotiations.
(BALPA kept that promise during their negotiations, it was slightly frustrating but stopped hype and hysteria)
BA has kept to that, hence no comms.
BASSA could not keep quiet hence all the emotional newsletters.
As the deadline has passed BA will shortly be communicating directly with cabin crew so they have the opportunity to hear the other side of the story if they wish to listen.
With balanced comms and the introduction of ACAS things WILL progress.
It may not be to everyone's liking but it was clear that it WILL happen to ensure the future of the company.
The BASSA meeting on Monday will be too early to serve any purpose, it will just fire up the militants.
A good union would delay it until BA has put out it's comms and ACAS has had an input. A GOOD union I said!
Good luck all.
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Stallpusher continues to demonstrate a simplistic, one dimensional, Bassa/Socialist Worker Party view of the world, summed up by:
1. LHR cabin crew hate BA because BA hates them.
2. They detest Willie Walsh, (because he has the audacity to question their authority in controlling the operation).
3. Anyone who questions or criticises Bassa is jealous of them.
4. Anyone not in BA wasn't good enough to get into BA and is therefore jealous.
5. The government will support BA because BA is a national institution that the public would insist on being propped up by nationalisation.
6. Cabin crew and pilots do the same job on board and should be treated the same.
7. When it comes to a ballot and they get a 80% strike ballot from a 30% return, it will be considered an overwhelming mandate for IA.
I think that sums it up.
The last time I came across these attitudes was listening to the likes of Scargill, McGachey, and Red Robbo. Look what happened to the workers they represented SP.
1. LHR cabin crew hate BA because BA hates them.
2. They detest Willie Walsh, (because he has the audacity to question their authority in controlling the operation).
3. Anyone who questions or criticises Bassa is jealous of them.
4. Anyone not in BA wasn't good enough to get into BA and is therefore jealous.
5. The government will support BA because BA is a national institution that the public would insist on being propped up by nationalisation.
6. Cabin crew and pilots do the same job on board and should be treated the same.
7. When it comes to a ballot and they get a 80% strike ballot from a 30% return, it will be considered an overwhelming mandate for IA.
I think that sums it up.
The last time I came across these attitudes was listening to the likes of Scargill, McGachey, and Red Robbo. Look what happened to the workers they represented SP.
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I can't wait to hear the rhetoric from the Kempton Park meeting on Monday. I could do with a good laugh! I'd love to know what they are going to talk about when nothing has happened yet, it can't be to share information......
All that subscription money going to good use.. I hope the champagne is top quality.
All that subscription money going to good use.. I hope the champagne is top quality.
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There seems to be no end to BASSA bashing on this forum,from non-cabin crew.I believe the union are doing their utmost to preserve their members pay and conditions,after all,that is why employees pay their subscriptions.
The arguements over BA's long term survival and desperate need to decimate the remuneration of it's cabin crew and groundstaff is open to debate.My personal view,is that the economy will recover,oil prices will remain stable and BA will return to profitability.But who am i to speculate,if i was that wise i would be a very wealthy individual by now.
I have no doubt that the BA leadership are hell bent on forcing permanent cost savings through,during this window of opportunity,as world economies are in recession.Equally,i admire the efforts of the trade unions to get the best possible outcome for their members.
The 2 sides seem to be oceans apart in coming to agreement,the union making some concessions and BA management stating the company is in a fight for survival and at the same time,expecting AA and Iberia to join the supposed "sinking ship".
Very mixed messages and i do not blame the unions for their lack of trust in any figures quoted at them by the company.
As in all negotiations,it's a game of poker,will be very interesting to see who can keep their nerve during these difficult weeks ahead.
The arguements over BA's long term survival and desperate need to decimate the remuneration of it's cabin crew and groundstaff is open to debate.My personal view,is that the economy will recover,oil prices will remain stable and BA will return to profitability.But who am i to speculate,if i was that wise i would be a very wealthy individual by now.
I have no doubt that the BA leadership are hell bent on forcing permanent cost savings through,during this window of opportunity,as world economies are in recession.Equally,i admire the efforts of the trade unions to get the best possible outcome for their members.
The 2 sides seem to be oceans apart in coming to agreement,the union making some concessions and BA management stating the company is in a fight for survival and at the same time,expecting AA and Iberia to join the supposed "sinking ship".
Very mixed messages and i do not blame the unions for their lack of trust in any figures quoted at them by the company.
As in all negotiations,it's a game of poker,will be very interesting to see who can keep their nerve during these difficult weeks ahead.
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So we can take it you subsribe to the "ignore it and it'll blow over" school of thought then? How long do you think it'll take to blow over, and will BA run out of cash before then? If the trade union strangles the golden goose is that the best outcome for members?
PS Can you think of a reason why Iberia might not want to join the sinking ship (until it stops sinking)?
PS Can you think of a reason why Iberia might not want to join the sinking ship (until it stops sinking)?