British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[TorC]

A-Scales appear positive

From my friends on the ground in T5, T4 and T3:

The A-Scale Union Reps are expecting to be at ACAS this coming Wednesday, and appear confident of a positive outcome for both sides. This from people who already underwent huge changes with the move to T5.

Meanwhile, bassa buys a new hat and goes to the races .....

[HiFlyer14]

Hi Nutjob and Mr Bunker's wife

Welcome and thankyou for being so bold as to say you will cross with us. Do you think we need a slogan - what about
Proud to work for BA - Proud to cross the Picket Line?

Nutjob you are so right - there are many, many more like us but as has already been said, it is SOOOO difficult, nay impossible, to make your voice heard above the militant chants. Not because the militants present any real argument or debate, but purely because they resort to name calling and threats of physical abuse. The BASSA and CrewForum websites and even now are own ESS site are truly frightening places. Arthur Scargill would be proud!

The many thousands of us that do not agree with the childish and bullying tactics, are simply lying low and waiting for the chance to cast our vote.

They are claiming on the Bully Forums that WW has somehow lost the plot and doesn't know what he is doing! However, here are just some of the hypocrisies of the BASSA hierarchy:

Proposed Temporary Solutions Only --- then offered permanent ones

Proposed "Say No to Mixed Fleet" --- then offered 767 to SH for...mixed flying

Slated Pilots Offer --- then offered the exact same for Cabin Crew


The list goes on....

There is only one side in all of this that is behaving like a headless chicken.....and it ain't WW.

[PC767]

Questions to BA cabin crew on this thread.

Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?

Have BA provided you with all the information you require on the financial impact of the changes to your salary?

Is your decision truely informed?

[MrBunker]

Similarly has BASSA provided a cost breakdown to prove their claimed savings? Perhaps if both sides submitted their proposal and breakdown to an independent auditor then there could be no partisanship in play and crew can make up their own minds.

[TorC]

PC767

Coming at your questions as one who accepts that change is needed:

Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?

I am happier overall with the BA proposals than with those put forward by the unions.

I am prepared to accept more of the BA proposals than I would those put forward by the unions.

Have BA provided you with all the information you require on the financial impact of the changes to your salary?

Not yet. Neither have the unions. What BA has done though, is to communicate with me in a calm, collected and respectful manner, offer explanations, asked my opinion as an individual, and remain open to questioning.

Is your decision truely informed?

I went through the last little spat very uninformed, or illinformed even. Not this time round. Postings here, and on other forums (some seen by myself, others only reported to me) suggest that a large number of CC are where I was the last time.

[7371000]

I Think, Therefore You Are:d

[7371000]

Don't think there is any malingering here; boy, is it hot!
The other day I had to deliberately walk under the
shade across O'Henry street in downtown Dublin.

[Perry-oaks]

PC767

Questions to BA cabin crew on this thread.

Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?

Have BA provided you with all the information you require on the financial impact of the changes to your salary?

Is your decision truely informed?

Where do you stand on these questions?

[HiFlyer14]

PC767

Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?

There is certainly room for negotiation, as I have already stated. However, as they stand the proposals are not the death warrant that CC are making out and IF push comes to shove, I will accept in their entirety.

Have BA provided you with all the information you require on the financial impact of the changes to your salary?

The only financial impact on my salary arises from the proposed Fixed Monthly Duty Payment. The amount of this has to be agreed between BA and Unite, therefore BA do not yet have all the information. Additionally, it was stated clearly yesterday on the live chat that this is still an option and BA are happy to leave the status quo on this. So, yes, I have all the information that is available at the moment.

Is your decision truely informed?

Yes I believe it is. If you feel I have overlooked something then please say. I certainly believe it is far more informed than the theory that "BA just want to smash the Unions" which is nothing more than BASSA rhetoric to wind up the members to achieve their own agenda.

Your turn now...same questions

[plodding along]

Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?

Of course no one will be happy! Why would anyone be happy to cut back on anything?
You think the pilots are "happy" to take a pay cut and work harder? of course not.

The thing is that many cabin crew just "don't get it", the fact that the savings MUST be made and are NON NEGOTIABLE that is.

Six months ago pilots thought it was rubbish, everything is "negotiable" after all, it took a long detailed review by BALPA before they realised that the savings were indeed required and the figure was indeed "non negotiable".
Thereafter BALPA spent 3 months working out how best to make those savings.

Cabin crew all voted no to ANY savings, at least BASSA now realises that savings must be made hence their own "£173million" proposal.
Touble is it's no good because of all the wasted months.

Please tell me why many crew are still yet to grasp the concept of recession/financial difficulty/need for cuts even at this stage?
Is it lack of intelligence or stubborness?

A lot of us just don't get why you don't get it.

Edited..... just reading the last few posts it would seem a lot of crew do "get it" I guess some do and some don't, just which is the majority?

[Perry-oaks]

plodding along

Please tell me why many crew are still yet to grasp the concept of recession/financial difficulty/need for cuts even at this stage?
Is it lack of intelligence or stubborness or the result of being spoilt for years.

I think that's a little unfair - I know if BALPA were telling us the savings are not required and BA are being opportunist - we would believe them, after all this was our view a few months back.

Bassa has failed its members by not reviewing the companys accounts and to use PC767's words is not truely informed.

[nuigini]

Proposed "Say No to Mixed Fleet" --- then offered 767 to SH for...mixed flying

The difference is this proposal comes from BASSA and would be under their premises. Obviously that makes it doable.

[plodding along]

I think that's a little unfair

It was, sorry. It's just so frustrating to see so many people angry at the company and management when we should all be pulling together to get out of this mess.

Yes there were fines, yes there was a T5 mess up, (could also bring up terminal staff strike, groung staff walk out in sympathy with gate gormet and a two day shut down by cabin crew) but it's all in the past. We can't go back and undo it.

The costs of this company exceed the revenue it receives, simple as that.

[Perry-oaks]

whats good for the goose, is good for the gander!!!. Come on BILL I'll have the same as our flight deck. Good for CRM

My contract has been constantly changing or evolving for the last 10 years - so you guys will have to play catchup first.

And you can't cherry pick the good bits - Hourly pay - Force Draft or Draft Assign whatever it's called - only 2 days MBT's between any trip - it is expected that you will go above and beyond your industrial limits if needed or you will have to justify yourself if you don't! etc. etc.

[TightSlot]

Thread is about Cabin Crew wages & T's &C's - Pilot agreements may be of interest, but are irrelevant to this thread.

[320 driver]

Tightslot

I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree.

BASSA use BALPA agreements and conditions as leverage and some CC use parts of the pilot agreement as an aspirational benchmark, so they are pertinent to the debate on BA CC pay and conditions.

(edited for grammar)

[Nutjob]

Are you happy and prepared to accept the BA proposals in their entirety?

No, which is why I would have liked my union to act responsibly and broker a deal that suited the desires of it's membership better. Have I been asked whether I'd rather sacrifice pay or work harder? No, not a thing. Just rants against WW, sour grapes vs the pilots and almost no facts. A miserable performance imho.

Have BA provided you with all the information you require on the financial impact of the changes to your salary?

No - aren't my union meant to go over those details with a fine tooth comb? Aren't many of these financial details quite confidential and only for the eyes of a few trusted individuals - i.e our reps?

Is your decision truely informed?

Well, I believe my decision is FAR better informed than that of those that swallow the childish BASSA line. What annoys me is that if BASSA actually accepted the need for some change and negotiated it on their terms, then we'd all be better off. As it is, I can only see us taking a huge beating, with Unite selling us out again. At least I have listened to the views of others, considered them all and made an informed decision. I'm comfortable that I've done the best I can.

And all of that means that while I accept the need for some change but not for all of BA's demands, I fear I will have no choice but to accept what BA eventually impose. I don't think that will be too pleasant.

[sunnysmith]

What I am really struggling to understand is why are Bassa and for that matter some crew (I’m guessing the militant) so obsessed with the pilots T’s and C’s.

whats good for the goose, is good for the gander!!!. Come on BILL I'll have the same as our flight deck. Good for CRM

Surely that just doesn’t apply, and neither does fairness IMHO. Our two groups do two very different jobs with very different responsibilities. On top of that there is a more readily available supply of CC compared to pilots. Compare that principle with why diamonds are expensive. Not every stone can be a diamond.

I’m sorry to have to say (please take this in the spirit in which it is intended – ie not a dig or a rant) that to try and compare pilots and cabin crew pay in this way is plain naïve. We earn more and have (debateable bit now) better T’s and C’s because that’s the whole point of striving to better oneself and move up the social and economic ladder.

By applying Bassa’s logic: Macdonalds staff do the same job as CC (it’s just an illustration NOT my opinion!!) so they should enjoy the same perks and pay. Lets put it another way: Why does the CSD get better pay, room upgrades, different staff travel etc then main crew? Because they have moved up the social and responsibility ladder and are thus rewarded for their hard work.

Why do some CC begrudge pilots? I guess to be honest an element of jealousy creeps in. Who hasn’t looked at say footballers in the UK and thought ‘that’s not fair?’. It’s not fair but that is how the world works. If we all, and that’s everyone from cleaners to people with immense responsibility like surgeons (or pilots ) got that same T’s and C’s, pay and even perks then what is the point of working hard?

So can any of you militant CC or Bassa reps really justify comparing our respective packages? Really?

In much the same way that people equate CSDs (and I have some very good CSD, purser and main crew friends by the way!) and FOs. How can you really justify it?

I sincerely hope this POV is not taken as a rant. Like I said at the start, I just don’t get why some think our jobs, responsibilities etc are in anyway comparable!

SS

[flapsforty]

Sunny, your point was raised, argued, re-raised, re-argued and so on a few more times in the previous thread on this subject.
Come to that, it has been discussed on this and other PPRuNe forums more times than I care to remember.

Summarizing what I have come across over the past 10 years on PPRuNe, here are the reasons for the difference in pay:

• Pilots train for longer than cabin crew
• Pilot training is more expensive than cabin crew training
• The skill/talent set required to become a pilot is less widely found in the general population than the skill/talent set needed to become a flight attendant
• Piloting is a male dominated job, FA-ing is a female dominated job. Male jobs get paid better than female jobs. UK Gender pay gap currently at 20%.

Pilot pay is irrelevant to this thread. As stated by TightSlot above.
In the previous thread, many (supposed) pilots have brought up the deal made by BALPA as an example of what BASSA should have done.
Hence perhaps the continued comparisons between the two groups.

[Litebulbs]

Flaps,

What, a 3% pay cut, for shares in 3 years time? I'm sure they would vote yes for that.