British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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CSDs to work onboard
They do already
They do already
Indeed they will be amazed that the highest paid member of the cc is on board to fill in paperwork, meet and greet premium passengers and "manage" the service (ie work out the breaks).
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Runway vacated - you just forgot to mention dealing with the crap onboard IFE system, placating premium pax who have been mishandled by BA, placating many non premium pax mishandled by BA, help in the CW service, etc, etc. And thats just the first few hours of EVERY flight.
...and not always the highest paid cabin crew member on board.
...and not always the highest paid cabin crew member on board.
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wobble2plank - you carry on believing just what you want to believe.
Do you actually wish to add to the debate or just knock your head against the wall?
My point is that, throughout this entire affair, BASSA have misrepresented the majority of their membership. If you feel or know differently then please post a polite, sensible and reasoned answer which furthers the thread.
Otherwise you are not doing yourself any favours.
Now, on with the debate.
Runway vacated - you just forgot to mention dealing with the crap onboard IFE system, placating premium pax who have been mishandled by BA, placating many non premium pax mishandled by BA, help in the CW service, etc, etc. And thats just the first few hours of EVERY flight.
...and not always the highest paid cabin crew member on board.
...and not always the highest paid cabin crew member on board.
It is part of the job.
As to the poor IFE, come sometimes and look at how our workload in the front goes up when we are faced with some of the harder Acceptable Deferred Defects (ADD) in the aircraft. No complaints as it is what we, as pilots, are paid to do.
Last edited by wobble2plank; 7th Jul 2009 at 09:11.
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you just forgot to mention dealing with the crap onboard IFE system, placating premium pax who have been mishandled by BA, placating many non premium pax mishandled by BA, help in the CW service, etc, etc. And thats just the first few hours of EVERY flight.
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Runway vacated - you just forgot to mention dealing with the crap onboard IFE system, placating premium pax who have been mishandled by BA, placating many non premium pax mishandled by BA, help in the CW service, etc, etc. And thats just the first few hours of EVERY flight.
The CSD is a very useful member of crew if they choose to be and, in fact, when they do choose to be they could quite easily replace another crew member in the service.
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"For some of you, more pay than Virgin Atlantic can afford may be critical to your lifestyle and if that is the case you should consider working elsewhere."
Richard Branson, December 2007
Richard Branson, December 2007
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Treatment between Pilots and CC, sorry for drift.
I am told the new LCY-SNN-JFK operation will allow the pilots a nice layover/nightstop in SNN, but the poor old CC will have to operate the complete flight.
Looks like the CC are keeping the ops cost as low as poss, the pilots less so.
Best to all the CC...
I am told the new LCY-SNN-JFK operation will allow the pilots a nice layover/nightstop in SNN, but the poor old CC will have to operate the complete flight.
Looks like the CC are keeping the ops cost as low as poss, the pilots less so.
Best to all the CC...
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wobblyplank:
CFC, sorry but I don't understand what your point is?
Do you actually wish to add to the debate or just knock your head against the wall?
My point is that, throughout this entire affair, BASSA have misrepresented the majority of their membership. If you feel or know differently then please post a polite, sensible and reasoned answer which furthers the thread.
Otherwise you are not doing yourself any favours.
Why do you not understand my point? Its pretty clear.
As for the Bassa comment I'll just re-emphasise:
wobble2plank - you carry on believing just what you want to believe.
CFC, sorry but I don't understand what your point is?
Do you actually wish to add to the debate or just knock your head against the wall?
My point is that, throughout this entire affair, BASSA have misrepresented the majority of their membership. If you feel or know differently then please post a polite, sensible and reasoned answer which furthers the thread.
Otherwise you are not doing yourself any favours.
Why do you not understand my point? Its pretty clear.
As for the Bassa comment I'll just re-emphasise:
wobble2plank - you carry on believing just what you want to believe.
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Runway vacated
with all due respect, and bare in mind I was at LGW for 6 years:
And this differs from LGW how? They achieve the same level of service with 2 less cc and the cm is on A LOT less money. "Slave wages" is the term I believe?
your above comments are slightly wrong. However do not believe me, just ask any premium pax who fly from both bases, or even some of our 777 FC who do the same. Taking nothing from my LGW colleagues, the lack of hands DOES make a big difference in-flight.
with all due respect, and bare in mind I was at LGW for 6 years:
And this differs from LGW how? They achieve the same level of service with 2 less cc and the cm is on A LOT less money. "Slave wages" is the term I believe?
your above comments are slightly wrong. However do not believe me, just ask any premium pax who fly from both bases, or even some of our 777 FC who do the same. Taking nothing from my LGW colleagues, the lack of hands DOES make a big difference in-flight.
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I am told the new LCY-SNN-JFK operation will allow the pilots a nice layover/nightstop in SNN, but the poor old CC will have to operate the complete flight.
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Matty01 wrote:
Oh come on CFC, that is achieved by a working member of CC at nearly every other airline in the world (including BA at LGW) to say those duties require the presence of someone soley able to deal with them is just not tenible in today's aviation world. The guys and girls manage at my current airline without having an administrator under the stairs. Sergeant Major needed putting to bed a long time ago.
The CSD is a very useful member of crew if they choose to be and, in fact, when they do choose to be they could quite easily replace another crew member in the service.
....in the same breadth, one could also ask why BA has 2 Captains flying its long range services, a nice to have but really necessary??
Oh come on CFC, that is achieved by a working member of CC at nearly every other airline in the world (including BA at LGW) to say those duties require the presence of someone soley able to deal with them is just not tenible in today's aviation world. The guys and girls manage at my current airline without having an administrator under the stairs. Sergeant Major needed putting to bed a long time ago.
The CSD is a very useful member of crew if they choose to be and, in fact, when they do choose to be they could quite easily replace another crew member in the service.
....in the same breadth, one could also ask why BA has 2 Captains flying its long range services, a nice to have but really necessary??
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your above comments are slightly wrong. However do not believe me, just ask any premium pax who fly from both bases, or even some of our 777 FC who do the same. Taking nothing from my LGW colleagues, the lack of hands DOES make a big difference in-flight.
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However do not believe me, just ask any premium pax who fly from both bases, or even some of our 777 FC who do the same
The issue about the accuracy of the customer feedback from LHR and LGW has been done to death on this thread, however as I am one of the FC who fly from both bases I can state with some confidence that there is almost NO DIFFERENCE in the quality of service provided. More to the point BASSA have conceded that a BA level of service can be provided by less people on less pay, so the next logical step is that similar conditions should be applied to other similar areas of the operation
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Thats what I mean, if CC can operate that flight, why dont the very flexable pilots do the same, am sure its not the longest flight in the airline world, I thought the pilots were on side to saving the company.
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No such thing as a coincidence...hot off the press from BA site moments ago.
Have a look at the GPM results for SFG Longhaul.
In particular look at the customer complaint to compliment ratio.
You will find that the results are way behind LHR longhaul.
This was not the case when I was at LGW Three years back.
I think this is due to the fact that the CSD role has been removed at LGW
And the crew managers are part of the service.
Have a look at the GPM results for SFG Longhaul.
In particular look at the customer complaint to compliment ratio.
You will find that the results are way behind LHR longhaul.
This was not the case when I was at LGW Three years back.
I think this is due to the fact that the CSD role has been removed at LGW
And the crew managers are part of the service.
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Shaks zulu wrote:
CFC,
hence the Box C is stretched by 30min, so now PVG and HKG will be 3crew year round.
Part of our cost saving plans
Ah yes, but still on 5/6 day slips as opposed to the CC 3/4 day slips - so no difference there.
PS How do you quote on this site?
CFC,
hence the Box C is stretched by 30min, so now PVG and HKG will be 3crew year round.
Part of our cost saving plans
Ah yes, but still on 5/6 day slips as opposed to the CC 3/4 day slips - so no difference there.
PS How do you quote on this site?
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Why not compare pilot and cabin crew costs??
BA pilots have among the best pay and conditions in the industry but when you factor in the time to command, I suspect the career earnings of a BA pilot and a LoCo pilot who picks up a command at 3/4/5 thousand hours are at least in the same ballpark.
In brief, and even without factoring in the long time to command, BA pilots are not paid twice or three times as much as their counterparts in other airlines. BA cabin crew are.
I can understand BA management's need to address this fact.
BA pilots have among the best pay and conditions in the industry but when you factor in the time to command, I suspect the career earnings of a BA pilot and a LoCo pilot who picks up a command at 3/4/5 thousand hours are at least in the same ballpark.
In brief, and even without factoring in the long time to command, BA pilots are not paid twice or three times as much as their counterparts in other airlines. BA cabin crew are.
I can understand BA management's need to address this fact.
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I am a firm believer that New Fleet was a complete hoax. Ever since that letter was found on a hot summer’s day on the photocopy machine, BASSA have been in a spin. WW never wanted New Fleet – it would have been too costly to administer. He wanted New Entrant Contracts, and the only way they could achieve it was to let the Unions believe that they have offered it.
I now think that there are a lot of other things in BA’s list that are red herrings. Why else did they leave it so late to present their list and then immediately call ACAS. I don’t think BA ever wanted to negotiate with UNITE – historically the relationship is just too fraught and he knew it would never succeed.
The only way to achieve his list was to lead UNITE to believe they were in control, then do the negotiating with ACAS there to mediate.
Look how quickly they dropped New Fleet. Look how suddenly MBTs are not required.
The reduction of days off on EF are a complete red herring – people on EF are having sometimes two non-op days a week! BA haven’t got the work for EF crew and bringing them in on a day off won’t save a penny. What they do need is Fixed Links, so that they can turn their aircraft round quickly and save millions. How can they get it when they know BASSA have already refused it? Threaten to take away their days off then negotiate back to fixed links. Brilliant!
Look at the other forums. Is anyone complaining about the reduced crew complement? No – they are complaining about CSDs working and the Fixed Monthly Duty Payment.
How easily BA are going to be able to bring in the crew complement reduction – by diverting attention on to other matters that they don’t even want.
Unite have now recognised that we MUST change. They have acknowledged the need for permanent change by offering 767’s to EF etc.
The sensible and only thing to do now, is to negotiate with ACAS present on each and every point on both lists. The membership (not the Senior Stewards) need to decide which item from either list is acceptable and then agree in order to achieve the desired savings.
BASSA have made this personal – just look at the questions to vote on yesterday:
1) do you accept Ba proposal?
All no
2) do you accept unite proposals
6 no all other yes
3) do you wish unite to make further concessions to Ba?
Answer no from all
It’s war – it’s simply BA vs BASSA.
What about another option? What about making a list of all the concessions and deciding which ones we CAN agree, or concede?
We need to negotiate now, to achieve the best possible outcome. If we don’t then we are going to end up with the worst of both worlds – BA’s proposals and UNITE’s clumsy offerings. Not a good combination.
I now think that there are a lot of other things in BA’s list that are red herrings. Why else did they leave it so late to present their list and then immediately call ACAS. I don’t think BA ever wanted to negotiate with UNITE – historically the relationship is just too fraught and he knew it would never succeed.
The only way to achieve his list was to lead UNITE to believe they were in control, then do the negotiating with ACAS there to mediate.
Look how quickly they dropped New Fleet. Look how suddenly MBTs are not required.
The reduction of days off on EF are a complete red herring – people on EF are having sometimes two non-op days a week! BA haven’t got the work for EF crew and bringing them in on a day off won’t save a penny. What they do need is Fixed Links, so that they can turn their aircraft round quickly and save millions. How can they get it when they know BASSA have already refused it? Threaten to take away their days off then negotiate back to fixed links. Brilliant!
Look at the other forums. Is anyone complaining about the reduced crew complement? No – they are complaining about CSDs working and the Fixed Monthly Duty Payment.
How easily BA are going to be able to bring in the crew complement reduction – by diverting attention on to other matters that they don’t even want.
Unite have now recognised that we MUST change. They have acknowledged the need for permanent change by offering 767’s to EF etc.
The sensible and only thing to do now, is to negotiate with ACAS present on each and every point on both lists. The membership (not the Senior Stewards) need to decide which item from either list is acceptable and then agree in order to achieve the desired savings.
BASSA have made this personal – just look at the questions to vote on yesterday:
1) do you accept Ba proposal?
All no
2) do you accept unite proposals
6 no all other yes
3) do you wish unite to make further concessions to Ba?
Answer no from all
It’s war – it’s simply BA vs BASSA.
What about another option? What about making a list of all the concessions and deciding which ones we CAN agree, or concede?
We need to negotiate now, to achieve the best possible outcome. If we don’t then we are going to end up with the worst of both worlds – BA’s proposals and UNITE’s clumsy offerings. Not a good combination.
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 7th Jul 2009 at 16:46.