British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Worth a read......Will Bassa read it???
The article mentionned by P Ridley should be mandatory reading for all cc.
If you can't be bothered to read it, here are some excerpts.
1. "A study of strikes in the 1980s shows why. Economists from the London School of Economics found that the average increase in annual pay produced by strikes was only 0.3 per cent, while the average strike lasted 11 days. Each strike day, of course, costs the worker a day’s wages. The study concluded that the wage gain would have to be retained by individual employees for 30 years simply for them to break even."
2. " The Framingham data provides the strongest statistical support we have yet had for an idea that social psychologists have held for some time — that members of groups “catch” behaviour from each other. Connected argues that this is particularly the case where networks are tight and where links with other networks are weak.
The postal workers union forms a classic social network of this type. However little sense striking may make to an individual, the idea that it is the right thing to do has spread round the group until everyone in it thinks that it makes sense. This is why the union is so resistant to the hiring of non-union labour to help to clear up the backlog of post. They fear that their mere presence will undermine the strength of the network.
The network effect is accompanied by another psychological quirk. A study of university fraternities showed that the more painful the initiation rites to the chapter, the more members value their membership. They have to do so to rationalise the ordeal that they have been through. Strikes work in the same way. Instead of the resolve of strikers weakening as the costs mount and the whole things becomes uneconomic, resolve strengthens. "
If you can't be bothered to read it, here are some excerpts.
1. "A study of strikes in the 1980s shows why. Economists from the London School of Economics found that the average increase in annual pay produced by strikes was only 0.3 per cent, while the average strike lasted 11 days. Each strike day, of course, costs the worker a day’s wages. The study concluded that the wage gain would have to be retained by individual employees for 30 years simply for them to break even."
2. " The Framingham data provides the strongest statistical support we have yet had for an idea that social psychologists have held for some time — that members of groups “catch” behaviour from each other. Connected argues that this is particularly the case where networks are tight and where links with other networks are weak.
The postal workers union forms a classic social network of this type. However little sense striking may make to an individual, the idea that it is the right thing to do has spread round the group until everyone in it thinks that it makes sense. This is why the union is so resistant to the hiring of non-union labour to help to clear up the backlog of post. They fear that their mere presence will undermine the strength of the network.
The network effect is accompanied by another psychological quirk. A study of university fraternities showed that the more painful the initiation rites to the chapter, the more members value their membership. They have to do so to rationalise the ordeal that they have been through. Strikes work in the same way. Instead of the resolve of strikers weakening as the costs mount and the whole things becomes uneconomic, resolve strengthens. "
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latest BASSA affirmation....
...is a peace from the Socialist Worker (I kid you not) saying how BA is sitting in on a billion quid of cash and lying to everyone. So Carnage obviously read this Dave Spart nonsense that has the urban proletariat fighting er against the oppressors er who are trying to break all the unions and er Thatcher out, etc.
Give me strength if that's the information on which ANY BASSA members are going to base their decision.
Give me strength if that's the information on which ANY BASSA members are going to base their decision.
I suspect that Dsertia has a point.
I used to deal with Militant Tendancy on Merseyside. I am completely familiar with their words/phrases/belief systems.
I do have a concern that some of the more strident inputs in to this BA CC dispute appear to be straight from the Militant Tendancy manual and phrase book............as was some of the behaviour associated with the GG dispute.
Does anyone close to the situation suspect that there are some "sleepers" involved in this dispute who care not a jot for the CC, but who just want to indulge in some Trotshyite "capital"-bashing?
I used to deal with Militant Tendancy on Merseyside. I am completely familiar with their words/phrases/belief systems.
I do have a concern that some of the more strident inputs in to this BA CC dispute appear to be straight from the Militant Tendancy manual and phrase book............as was some of the behaviour associated with the GG dispute.
Does anyone close to the situation suspect that there are some "sleepers" involved in this dispute who care not a jot for the CC, but who just want to indulge in some Trotshyite "capital"-bashing?
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What precisely is BASSA basing this on? I do hope for their own sake that they are 100% accurate with their information. Otherwise it could come down as slander, couldn't it?
Look at CF and you will notice that it's the same people writing the same stuff over and over again. They have over 3000 members. It's less than a handfull of people on there supporting a strike. Not 10%. Not even 5%. Less than that.
Look at CF and you will notice that it's the same people writing the same stuff over and over again. They have over 3000 members. It's less than a handfull of people on there supporting a strike. Not 10%. Not even 5%. Less than that.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone close to the situation suspect that there are some "sleepers" involved in this dispute who care not a jot for the CC, but who just want to indulge in some Trotshyite "capital"-bashing?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: uk
Age: 46
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nugini,
pathetic. I do not post on Crewforum but I am supporting the strike as are many many crew who don't go on any forums. I am Eurofleet and the majority are in favour of a ballot and a strike. Nobody wants to but we will fight till the end. I find it hard to believe you know anything about cabin crew.
Have a nice day.
pathetic. I do not post on Crewforum but I am supporting the strike as are many many crew who don't go on any forums. I am Eurofleet and the majority are in favour of a ballot and a strike. Nobody wants to but we will fight till the end. I find it hard to believe you know anything about cabin crew.
Have a nice day.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And what will you do if the end comes and BA goes bust? We've seen it all before. You talk the talk, but when it comes to it you all hope that the threat of a strike will be enough to scare management into submission, because there's no way any of you are prepared to lose a weeks pay for the cause.
But WW will not win. 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hope and blind faith may be the stuff of the BASSA forum, but over here we prefer to deal with facts. Walsh has got £300M from the City to fight you, repayable within 3 years with interest from the savings he'll make from cabin crew. You can't outlast his £300M.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: uk
Age: 46
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carnage M,
If you honestly believe that most of the crew at BA are NOT willing to give a weeks pay to fight for our future, you are very much mistaken, which is why I find it hard to believe any of you know anything about crew or are crew.
If you honestly believe that most of the crew at BA are NOT willing to give a weeks pay to fight for our future, you are very much mistaken, which is why I find it hard to believe any of you know anything about crew or are crew.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
pathetic.
I find it hard to believe you know anything about cabin crew.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying Chick,
If you honestly believe that BA cannot go bust then I suggest you take a long look at the state of the industry.
BA is NOT sitting on a cash pile of £1 billion for the enjoyment of WW. The minimum revenue stream required to keep any business the scale of BA running on credit streams is huge. In fact the company requires to maintain a minimum term of fiscal liquidity in the region of 3 months before the creditors start asking for cash up front.
Have a look at the dying days of Alitalia to see how difficult that becomes.
BA, like any other company in the private sector, could and can go under. If it does all the BASSA posturing in the world wont help in the drastic re-write of your contracts and the current deal will seem a bed of roses compared to what that re-write could be.
The fleet is aging, the 747 needs replacing and the company is propped on debt whilst still losing money.
So, why can't BA go bust? Especially when all other departments have met their responsibilities and targets only leaving the CC to finally, after years of living above the pay drag curve, meet theirs.
Time to wake up to the fact that BA CC are paid too much with too cushy a lifestyle and change is coming.
A strike will be the final nail in the coffin of BASSA.
Edit:
Flying Chick, it is also interesting to note that, of your 38 posts, all have been in this thread and none, not one, has offered any insight into the reasons why BASSA is right and that the current course of action is correct. As with most pro BASSA posters you peddle the rhetoric from the BASSA site, put down anyone who contradicts that view and offer no valid argument for your position.
So, come on, give value to the discussion with some reasoned facts please.
If you honestly believe that BA cannot go bust then I suggest you take a long look at the state of the industry.
BA is NOT sitting on a cash pile of £1 billion for the enjoyment of WW. The minimum revenue stream required to keep any business the scale of BA running on credit streams is huge. In fact the company requires to maintain a minimum term of fiscal liquidity in the region of 3 months before the creditors start asking for cash up front.
Have a look at the dying days of Alitalia to see how difficult that becomes.
BA, like any other company in the private sector, could and can go under. If it does all the BASSA posturing in the world wont help in the drastic re-write of your contracts and the current deal will seem a bed of roses compared to what that re-write could be.
The fleet is aging, the 747 needs replacing and the company is propped on debt whilst still losing money.
So, why can't BA go bust? Especially when all other departments have met their responsibilities and targets only leaving the CC to finally, after years of living above the pay drag curve, meet theirs.
Time to wake up to the fact that BA CC are paid too much with too cushy a lifestyle and change is coming.
A strike will be the final nail in the coffin of BASSA.
Edit:
Flying Chick, it is also interesting to note that, of your 38 posts, all have been in this thread and none, not one, has offered any insight into the reasons why BASSA is right and that the current course of action is correct. As with most pro BASSA posters you peddle the rhetoric from the BASSA site, put down anyone who contradicts that view and offer no valid argument for your position.
So, come on, give value to the discussion with some reasoned facts please.
Last edited by wobble2plank; 21st Oct 2009 at 16:14.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's the same with CSD becoming part of the service. Riot amongst some because there won't be enough time. Who will reset AVOD? Who will deal with angry passengers? Service will suffer. Crew rest will take place and if it means that the passengers don't get anything to eat, so be it.
CSD will be in charge of 3R but they won't be able to do boarding properly because they need to cover their door. A reminder is that number 9 usually has to stand there during the entire boarding to let the crew in CW do all the pre-boarding stuff. The best bit is those saying that they won't do it because the job description doesn't say that the CSD should be part of the service.
Another reminder - most airlines have their SCCM part of the service and it seems to work more than fine. Actually, it's happening down at Gatters and they receive better feedback from passengers than what Heattie does.
Those airlines have probably realised it's not financially feasible to crew their aircraft with an additional crew member whose main responsibilities are to reset IFE, speak to different card members, hand out landing cards and give a hand during the meal service in CW.
I don't hate CSD's. There are many at BA who are bloody good at what they are doing and they deserve an applause. At the same time, there are also those ones who can't be bothered to leave their office more than necessary on a 12 hour flight.
Times are changing and if UNITE and BASSA had taken their responsibilites in the first place, many things could have been avoided. Why did they refuse to negotiate the Disruption Agreement at one of the last meetings? They were being perverse and trying to show who's in control of the negotiations. Nothing else.
Good luck on the picket line. If it goes that far that is. I agree with Carney Matey that this possible strike will probably back down at the very last second.
CSD will be in charge of 3R but they won't be able to do boarding properly because they need to cover their door. A reminder is that number 9 usually has to stand there during the entire boarding to let the crew in CW do all the pre-boarding stuff. The best bit is those saying that they won't do it because the job description doesn't say that the CSD should be part of the service.
Another reminder - most airlines have their SCCM part of the service and it seems to work more than fine. Actually, it's happening down at Gatters and they receive better feedback from passengers than what Heattie does.
Those airlines have probably realised it's not financially feasible to crew their aircraft with an additional crew member whose main responsibilities are to reset IFE, speak to different card members, hand out landing cards and give a hand during the meal service in CW.
I don't hate CSD's. There are many at BA who are bloody good at what they are doing and they deserve an applause. At the same time, there are also those ones who can't be bothered to leave their office more than necessary on a 12 hour flight.
Times are changing and if UNITE and BASSA had taken their responsibilites in the first place, many things could have been avoided. Why did they refuse to negotiate the Disruption Agreement at one of the last meetings? They were being perverse and trying to show who's in control of the negotiations. Nothing else.
Good luck on the picket line. If it goes that far that is. I agree with Carney Matey that this possible strike will probably back down at the very last second.
Last edited by nuigini; 21st Oct 2009 at 16:23.
We're all "pathetic"
Suspicion,
I suspect that folk like "Flying Chick" and "PiB" are not normal CC, but are just agitators, like the bullies at the time of the GG dispute.
There are several "contributors" to this thread who are in the "strident" camp, and who are not intellectually capable of having a discussion.
When it is just a harangue, there is no point in responding to them - we're all pathetic.
I suspect that folk like "Flying Chick" and "PiB" are not normal CC, but are just agitators, like the bullies at the time of the GG dispute.
There are several "contributors" to this thread who are in the "strident" camp, and who are not intellectually capable of having a discussion.
When it is just a harangue, there is no point in responding to them - we're all pathetic.
flying_chick,
I do honestly believe that a majority of BASSA members will not strike. Simple.
And I do hope that you're one of the first out on your ear - no company can afford the likes of you working for them. You don't have a scooby-doo about the financial position affecting the world at the mo, do you? World owes you a living does it?
I do honestly believe that a majority of BASSA members will not strike. Simple.
And I do hope that you're one of the first out on your ear - no company can afford the likes of you working for them. You don't have a scooby-doo about the financial position affecting the world at the mo, do you? World owes you a living does it?
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Uk
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying chick
You stated all crew will be willing to give up a weks pay to fight WW.
Do you really think BA will let you decide how long you are going to strike for?,
If you do go out, you better be prepared for more than 1 week loss of money, when all the other crew that dont want to strike,crew managers, new crew (ex temps), pilots, engineers, and ground staff are still flying the program. WW will not have you back in till he is ready and the union is busted in the courts !!!!!!!!!!!!!.
You stated all crew will be willing to give up a weks pay to fight WW.
Do you really think BA will let you decide how long you are going to strike for?,
If you do go out, you better be prepared for more than 1 week loss of money, when all the other crew that dont want to strike,crew managers, new crew (ex temps), pilots, engineers, and ground staff are still flying the program. WW will not have you back in till he is ready and the union is busted in the courts !!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: uk
Age: 46
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
deeceethree,
You can hope all you like. I am also sure you don't have a clue about what we are fighting for. Also, the world doesn't owe me anything. The world is not as bad has you are you making out to be either.
Also, you are totally wrong about people not going on strike but then again it is only a matter of weeks. I received a letter from Unite we are all UNITED Amicus, CC89 AND Bassa just to show you that we are all in this together....
CC89 and BASSA have never seen eye to eye but now they have joined forces. BA is spinning a fast one to break the union we ALL would have agreed to temporary solutions. First there was NO new fleet, now it is back on?? Come on...
P.S I love BA and I love the crew I work with. I don't think you are all pathetic I just stated that it was pathetic that Nugini should be so qualified in saying that hardly anyone will strike. No one wants to but we shall see.
You can hope all you like. I am also sure you don't have a clue about what we are fighting for. Also, the world doesn't owe me anything. The world is not as bad has you are you making out to be either.
Also, you are totally wrong about people not going on strike but then again it is only a matter of weeks. I received a letter from Unite we are all UNITED Amicus, CC89 AND Bassa just to show you that we are all in this together....
CC89 and BASSA have never seen eye to eye but now they have joined forces. BA is spinning a fast one to break the union we ALL would have agreed to temporary solutions. First there was NO new fleet, now it is back on?? Come on...
P.S I love BA and I love the crew I work with. I don't think you are all pathetic I just stated that it was pathetic that Nugini should be so qualified in saying that hardly anyone will strike. No one wants to but we shall see.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by flying chick
If you honestly believe that most of the crew at BA are NOT willing to give a weeks pay to fight for our future, you are very much mistaken,
I received a letter from Unite we are all UNITED Amicus, CC89 AND Bassa just to show you that we are all in this together....
BA is spinning a fast one to break the union we ALL would have agreed to temporary solutions. First there was NO new fleet, now it is back on?? Come on...