British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[bermudatriangle]

Carnage,i am never one to duck the issue.My belief is that BA can absorb huge fines for price fixing,£300 million if my memory is correct,the gulf war,with it's massive downturn is passengers,september 11th and it's well documented legacy.The current recession will end,when is anyones guess.The savings BA want from its cabin crew and groundstaff pale into insignificance with the huge ammounts the aforementioned events cost the airline.Reducing staff salaries will not save the airline or bancrupt it,however the ammounts involved are not insignificant.
I do feel and i reiterate this point,that their is a definite current agenda to decimate working conditions for staff that have been enjoyed for many years.As a worker myself,i would rather see less well rewarded employees aspire to achieve more themselves,rather than rejoice at the prospect of seeing other workers having their pay and conditions eroded.

[T5 Mole]

There seems to be no end to BASSA bashing on this forum,from non-cabin crew.

Might is be as BASSA are threatening any chance of survival of the company, and that others also want to keep their jobs...?!

My personal view,is that the economy will recover,oil prices will remain stable and BA will return to profitability.But who am i to speculate,if i was that wise i would be a very wealthy individual by now.

The economy is getting worse. Oil prices continue to rise. BA is presently loss-making, and without sufficient funds to cover working capital, will die as surely as Alitalia, Sabena and PanAm have died in the past.

The cookie jar of the UK government is not only shut but empty. An airline's survival is incomparable to a bank that supports payments systems. Without BA, Lufthansa, Virgin and Air France will happily grow at LHR and employ more people at market rate.

If you fail to negotiate, everyone in the airline will be joining one of the above at market rate.

[Poof in Boots]

Well Bermuda, it is nice to see a reasoned post here instead of the normal 'Pavlov's Dog' BASSA Bashing employed by the usual suspects.

BASSA/UNITE has been negotiating in spite of diatribes to the contrary here.

BA management have painted themselves into a corner by raising the bar so high, that even the merest concession by them will still leave a massive void. So any further ground given by BA mnagement will be seen as a climbdown and a loss of face by them.

I see that even VIRGIN's management relate to the same business school model of "FredtheShreddist-Klepto- Handinthetill" instincts as BA's, lining their pockets whilst laying off their poorly paid cabin crew by the hundred.

[Carnage Matey!]

Bermuda - BA incurred a £300M fine. You can complain all you like about it, but unless you can get the authorities to pay it back it doesn't materially change the fact the company doesn't have enough cash. Interestingly nobody ever asks whether the the fine was more or less than the sum BA made through price fixing.

Gulf War 2 and 9/11 were nothing like the downturns we are currently experiencing, I was here for them all. You may also recall that Emirates and Qatar Airways were nothing like the competitors they are now back then. Etihad didn't even exist. Virgin were half the size. The Bermuda 2 treaty limited transatlantic competition at LHR. It's a different world now, and wishing it wasn't won't change it.

There is most certainly an agenda in the current climate, and that is to get the company fit to survive, not procrastinate and hope the problem will go away, because this time there's every likelihood it won't. Evolve or fail are the options facing us.

[T5 Mole]

Very mixed messages and i do not blame the unions for their lack of trust in any figures quoted at them by the company.

Well go and employ Deloitte / KPMG to assess the figures for yourselves then.

Put it this way - Club is busy now only due to upgrades and discounted tickets. When Club was full at £5,000 per seat return to NY, the loss of revenue compared to today if 30 of those seats are no longer sold is £150,000 now that those bankers and lawyers are not flying. Let's say it is £50,000 down in reality if those seats are being sold at 2/3 the price instead.

£50,000 down on each return trip per day. Across the whole longhaul fleet of c.110 aircraft - £5,000,000 per day (I ignore route variations if you ignore shorthaul revenue losses due to the same situation).

£5m per day down = £1.8bn down for six months.

Added to which, there cargo revenues are down, volumes are down across the board, and robber Brown is after more APD.


So the fine was covered easily at the peak of the market...now all this cash has disappeared entirely.

As a worker myself,i would rather see less well rewarded employees aspire to achieve more themselves,rather than rejoice at the prospect of seeing other workers having their pay and conditions eroded.

I thoroughly agree with you. Nobody is rejoicing. The piggy bank is empty.

[Poof in Boots]

I would like to know where the court case against Martin George and three senior managers in BA over Fuel Surcharge price Fixing is?

Thye were committed to trial earlier this year at Southwark. Why has the case been delayed?

[T5 Mole]

BA management have painted themselves into a corner by raising the bar so high, that even the merest concession by them will still leave a massive void. So any further ground given by BA mnagement will be seen as a climbdown and a loss of face by them.

If BASSA had kept to the agreement not to disclose information that expired on 30 June, management may have been more willing to concede points. Instead, it is BASSA that has forced their hand into being more demanding.

How dim is that...?!

I would like to know where the court case against Martin George and three senior managers in BA over Fuel Surcharge price Fixing is?

What is the relevance? The fine is offset by the undue gains made in price fixing, though those are of indeterminate size.

[Poof in Boots]

Carnage. Nobody doubts British Airways will survive the current downturn, unless as Richard Branson commented, that Walsh: "talks BA into an early grave".

Our business model has suffered more than most being a full service airline. Our regular customers may cut back and fly with RyanAir for a while, but they miss the lounges and other atributes that BA provides.

Now we witness once more idiotic BA management trying to justify their positions by cutting product that will reduce the service to our customers like chocolates withdrawn in First and no hot towels in Club Europe. Some aircraft have run out ot fresh water in flight due to aircraft departing with less than full tanks to save weight.

More damage has been done to the prestige of British Airways by the activities of its CEO and senior managers. Even more damage will be done when they provoke a strike amongst 30,000 workers in BA, not just the cabin crew. It seems that some people forget here that there are other departments at loggerheads with Willie as well in BA.

Walsh may feel that three Christmasses have come at once using the recession to permanently drive down employee wages, but VIRGIN has shown that even with poverty pay it is not the salaries and T&C's that make or break an airline. It is management incompetence.

[bermudatriangle]

T5 mole,are you justifying illegal price fixing as long as the financial gains exceed the penalty?....a very dodgy policy indeed and one i would hope is never,ever followed by one of our leading UK companies.It is precicely that appaling management style that has so incensed employees at BA over many years.The company has always been let down by those at board level,through incompetence or in your price fixing analagy,illegality !Look at the BA/Virgin dirty tricks campaign,when BA contacted Virgin customers and poached their business,Bob Aylings disastrous debranding of the aircraft insignia with the multicoloured,multi-design tailfin logos and associated corporate merchandising and branding.

[JazzyKex]

The savings BA want from its cabin crew and groundstaff pale into insignificance with the huge ammounts the aforementioned events cost the airline.Reducing staff salaries will not save the airline or bancrupt it,however the ammounts involved are not insignificant.

BermudaTriangle.

Your quote sums up the nub of the problem...we know the savings will NOT cover the losses! This is not about covering losses...

BA need to borrow cash to get through the downturn as we hemorrhage money daily. As with any bank loan we need to show we can pay it back...eventually. Without showing permanent changes to our costs we will not be able to borrow enough to keep the cash reserves needed to stop out creditors wanting up front payment. There begins the downward spiral into bankruptcy!

It is up to BASSA to explain this to their members, I'm sure it has been explained in fine detail to them by BA. Most crew well able to understand the predicament, to think not insults the intelligence of most of the great crew I work with. It does however need to be dissected and explained and as such BASSA should dissect and explain which of their costs pay, productivity are valued at and ask their membership that IF it can be proven the BA are NOT lying what elements they are most willing to accede!

They have had months to have that grown up discussion with the company and their membership...it is a shame it has come to this entirely avoidable breakdown which now threatens their jobs, my job and the jobs of thousands of others. Not to mention the reputation of BA as we arrive in another summer the IA looming large.

Good luck to all...I hope a path of least pain can be arrived upon for all involved.

[Poof in Boots]

I think it is also worth mentioning the help that BA gets. It is widely known that although the Saudi routes were slow on the pick up, they are now quite busy. However 777 holds are full of cargo on these routes.

It is also helpful to BA that allegedly the Saudis are donating the fuel for the return flights.

[Carnage Matey!]

Nobody doubts British Airways will survive the current downturn, unless as Richard Branson commented, that Walsh: "talks BA into an early grave".

Do you think thats because people think we'll trundle on unchanged, or they think the Leadership Team will take strong action to cut costs permanently?

Our business model has suffered more than most being a full service airline.

Our regular customers may cut back and fly with RyanAir for a while, but they miss the lounges and other atributes that BA provides.

Do you know who our regular customers are? Do you think they'll fly Ryanair? They don't. They just don't fly at all. And whilst their companies are on the ropes they won't be coming back.

Now we witness once more idiotic BA management trying to justify their positions by cutting product that will reduce the service to our customers like chocolates withdrawn in First and no hot towels in Club Europe. Some aircraft have run out ot fresh water in flight due to aircraft departing with less than full tanks to save weight.

Out of water? Really? Given there's been no reduction in the water loaded on aircraft I find this interesting. Can you tell me which, or which routes, because it seems nobody in Flight Ops knows anything about this.

More damage has been done to the prestige of British Airways by the activities of its CEO and senior managers. Even more damage will be done when they provoke a strike amongst 30,000 workers in BA, not just the cabin crew.

Nobody is anything like as far from a deal as BASSA. GSS even had a deal before Unite stuck their noses into it. The only people who'll even get to a strike ballot will be BASSA. And you won't get to a strike.

VIRGIN has shown that even with poverty pay it is not the salaries and T&C's that make or break an airline. It is management incompetence.

Or management competence, or the ability to be flexible and not downgrade passengers because you won't work two down, or strand people because you want two nights off after a diversion, or bump passengers because you want 18 hours off after a long day and need to position home etc etc. Or indeed having loaders who won't remove chocks or ground power. Or manning a single terminal with enough staff for two, even though everything is done by machine. And so on, and so forth.

[T5 Mole]

T5 mole,are you justifying illegal price fixing as long as the financial gains exceed the penalty?

Huh? What planet are you on? I stated that the fine handed down was in fact offset by the illegal gains made (hence the fine being handed down) - therefore there is no £300m "hole" in reality, as the gains were illegal in the first place...

BA World Cargo - read: http://aircargonews.net/PC-Interview.aspx

[Poof in Boots]

Carnage: Flights are leaving on sectors up to ten hours duration with 75% fresh water in the tanks. Didn't you know?

[Carnage Matey!]

Yes I did know. They've been leaving like that for about 4 years.

[MrBunker]

Head of IFCE trying to provide answers on the intranet but seems to be mostly being lambasted. I credit him for at least attempting to explain the thinking behind his proposal. I fear that most people are unwilling to listen.

[Andyismyname]

PIB

Yous stated "It is also helpful to BA that allegedly the Saudis are donating the fuel for the return flights"

I find that highly unlikely.

[Crash_and_Burn]

Or as usually happens, the militant few drown out the reasonable majority.

I love a bit of free speech..

[Perry-oaks]

Thebaxfactor

The basic problem, it seems to me, is that the membership of BASSA are somewhat brighter than those who are in positions of power in the union.

Bassa is a democratic union and the members elect the reps to represent their views, so they get who they voted for!

To quote a different forum which I think sums it up nicely -

If you elect turnips, then turnip soup you shall eat. Vote for more intelligent people and avoid the soup. It's not difficult.

[wobble2plank]

As usual when no arguments to the contrary are available the usual suspects reply with the 'BASSA bashing' rhetoric. How surprising.

As has already been stated the gross profits pertaining to the 'fuel surcharge' and the 'cargo price fixing' scandals offsets the losses in fines. Whether the two cancel, lose or make profit is something that I feel BA will keep tightly closed. However the fact remains that they were covered in a time when the financial returns allowed them to be absorbed. Time goes on and the world continues to turn.

Oil prices stable? Where did this gem come from? Speculation alone has driven the price of petrol up to in excess of £1.05 a litre again. Fuel hedging could possibly take the edge of any fluctuation for a year or two but, without a viable alternative, the kerosene price will continue to rise. Add to that the prospect of interest rate rises, especially at the business level, and you have a dangerous cocktail for the future.

BA need to offer a stable, consistent product at a price that fits the current and future markets. Due to the overbearing, militant approach of BASSA we have become the summer laughing stock once again as yet another 'summer of discontent' hoves into view.

Even most of the CC have the good grace to feel embarrassed about the situation!

BA have in no way been backed into a corner by setting the bar too high. In fact what sort of statement is that in the first place? BA has expectations, plans and contingency plans. WW is a wily character and would not be playing this game if he wasn't certain of the outcome. The fact BASSA hates him is water off a ducks back to him. He just doesn't care.

The next few days will be very telling. I support our CC in the fullest terms, I do not however support BASSA's view or approach and I feel that many of our CC have been seriously let down by BASSA both now and in the past. Economies change and that change has to be taken into account. BASSA cannot comprehend this and thus takes it position shouting from its 1970's soap box.

If you want to know, as a snapshot, how many might be let down then take the 4000 who applied for VR under the given T's & C's but who may, now, face CR with far worse T's & C's.

Well done BASSA.