British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Posted by BigBrutha:
What evidence do you have that Walsh has scared away business? I could equally argue that he has bought us customers- customers who would hate to see BA fail, who may not have booked with us if it wasn't for him explaining how close we are to the brink. I have seen no evidence of any adverse effect from the publicity we've had recently. But I do know talks breaking down with Unions, and irresponsible unions beating their chests will scare passengers away very quickly. As of course will a ballot for IA.
The above comment sums up just how out of touch many are who use this forum. I find it quite incredible that some are burying their heads in the sand, blame CC, blame Unions, blame everybody else, from their smug position of having their "savings to the company" sorted.
If any of you on hear think that the customers are not ALREADY moving then I suggest you stretch your legs a bit more and ask for yourself.
What evidence do you have that Walsh has scared away business? I could equally argue that he has bought us customers- customers who would hate to see BA fail, who may not have booked with us if it wasn't for him explaining how close we are to the brink. I have seen no evidence of any adverse effect from the publicity we've had recently. But I do know talks breaking down with Unions, and irresponsible unions beating their chests will scare passengers away very quickly. As of course will a ballot for IA.
The above comment sums up just how out of touch many are who use this forum. I find it quite incredible that some are burying their heads in the sand, blame CC, blame Unions, blame everybody else, from their smug position of having their "savings to the company" sorted.
If any of you on hear think that the customers are not ALREADY moving then I suggest you stretch your legs a bit more and ask for yourself.
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The problem is BA are supplying the noose.
Doesn't mean you have to put your head in it..............
Last edited by Witraz; 2nd Jul 2009 at 07:03.
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Reargunner
You believe your sufficient explanation, in a few months time, looking back, you may come to a different opinion.
My only advice would be to not rely solely on BASSA for your view of the world!
As for the accusation that our negotiaition has failed because of inadequate effort or unethical bias in the part of the BASSA reps...I disagree. The simple fact that they had to negotiate a cut 4 times the size of the BALPA negotiations is sufficient explanation for me. The larger the cut, the more difficult the task.
My only advice would be to not rely solely on BASSA for your view of the world!
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Well you boys and girls get no sympathy from me! Most of you live in complete fantasy and are going to hit the ground hard. Face it BA is a dinosaur in the modern airline industry and simply cannot compete with the likes of Easyjet and ryanair who where saving cash left right and centre long before the recession even started. Simple fact is you bend or the company will brake.
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Reargunner said:
Wrong Reargunner.
The original saving for Flt Ops was to keep costs level for two years. Each year's increase in costs if everything remained the same, would have been £13m. That's how the cuts were described initially.
However if you take 2 years cuts, the first being £13m, the second being £26m and add them up, you get £39m!!! That's the figure now used to demonstrate our savings.
Our savings target has never changed, we negotiated carefully calculated cuts that minimised their effects on pilots whilst achieving the required cost reductions.
So now you can go back to being less 'relieved' again.
(Glad to see more CF members here!)
2 months ago the original ask was to save £82m from IFCE budget (£568m) which was about 14%
At the same point Flight Ops had a target of saving £13m from their budget (£445) which was 2.9%
Both those targets have been increased. Now Flight Ops is to cut £38.5m which is 8.6% and IFCE £210m which is 37%.
There seems to have been a similar rate of increase applied to the 2 departments.
At the same point Flight Ops had a target of saving £13m from their budget (£445) which was 2.9%
Both those targets have been increased. Now Flight Ops is to cut £38.5m which is 8.6% and IFCE £210m which is 37%.
There seems to have been a similar rate of increase applied to the 2 departments.
The original saving for Flt Ops was to keep costs level for two years. Each year's increase in costs if everything remained the same, would have been £13m. That's how the cuts were described initially.
However if you take 2 years cuts, the first being £13m, the second being £26m and add them up, you get £39m!!! That's the figure now used to demonstrate our savings.
Our savings target has never changed, we negotiated carefully calculated cuts that minimised their effects on pilots whilst achieving the required cost reductions.
So now you can go back to being less 'relieved' again.
(Glad to see more CF members here!)
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There's an awful lot of number crunching going on!
I don't feel BA have moved the goalposts at all. We have always known that huge savings were required - the Union have been in denial and refused to save anything like the figures required. BASSA, in an attempt to show a degree of logic, are now pumping out figures left, right and centre with no substantian or evidence. Their proposal alleges to save £173 million. Evidence? Verified by who? Worked out by who - a couple of CSD BASSA reps who are probably on BOAC contracts and haven't stepped foot in the real world since 1960?
And now the figures of 37%. What does that figure mean? Where is the evidence of it? How was it arrived at? Please - enlighten me.
CC are pumping out these figures now on other forums in an attempt to show "how hard done by we are"
This is turning into a farce.
In the meantime, the clock is ticking, nothing is being achieved, and we may very soon have imposition. Glamgirl - I'll be right there with you crossing that picket line - if we ever get the chance to get that far.
I don't feel BA have moved the goalposts at all. We have always known that huge savings were required - the Union have been in denial and refused to save anything like the figures required. BASSA, in an attempt to show a degree of logic, are now pumping out figures left, right and centre with no substantian or evidence. Their proposal alleges to save £173 million. Evidence? Verified by who? Worked out by who - a couple of CSD BASSA reps who are probably on BOAC contracts and haven't stepped foot in the real world since 1960?
And now the figures of 37%. What does that figure mean? Where is the evidence of it? How was it arrived at? Please - enlighten me.
CC are pumping out these figures now on other forums in an attempt to show "how hard done by we are"
This is turning into a farce.In the meantime, the clock is ticking, nothing is being achieved, and we may very soon have imposition. Glamgirl - I'll be right there with you crossing that picket line - if we ever get the chance to get that far.
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I repeat:
BA is now in dispute with UNITE - not just Bassa, which is affiliated to UNITE.
UNITE represent nearly 30,000 BA workers, not just crew. They are regularly meeting together, something that has never happened before.
WW is definitely in for a rough ride - roll on the ballot papers!
BA is now in dispute with UNITE - not just Bassa, which is affiliated to UNITE.
UNITE represent nearly 30,000 BA workers, not just crew. They are regularly meeting together, something that has never happened before.
WW is definitely in for a rough ride - roll on the ballot papers!
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"BA is now in dispute with UNITE - not just Bassa, which is affiliated to UNITE.
UNITE represent nearly 30,000 BA workers, not just crew. They are regularly meeting together, something that has never happened before.
WW is definitely in for a rough ride - roll on the ballot papers!"
Just be careful there, if crew vote to strike over crew issues, the law would not support all BA UNITE members going in strike for support. To strike it has to be for legitimate reasons that concern your own job, not other people's.
UNITE represent nearly 30,000 BA workers, not just crew. They are regularly meeting together, something that has never happened before.
WW is definitely in for a rough ride - roll on the ballot papers!"
Just be careful there, if crew vote to strike over crew issues, the law would not support all BA UNITE members going in strike for support. To strike it has to be for legitimate reasons that concern your own job, not other people's.
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Are you certain that BA's dispute with Unite is not related to another employee group that has also been negotiating for months, and has yet to reach agreement...?
Still, just by virtue of being in the same union, does not permit joint strike action of both employee groups, operating on different contracts, agreements and in different locations.
Still, just by virtue of being in the same union, does not permit joint strike action of both employee groups, operating on different contracts, agreements and in different locations.
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Yes CFC we can all pick and choose an article from a paper supporting whatever we want to believe. After all, we all earn £29000 don't we??
The fact is we are achieving nothing by all of this. I personally want to do my bit to get the company back on it's feet. I will work harder. If it has to be me and one other crew member on a flight, then I'll do it (just rhetoric Willie
), I'll have less time off downroute, and I will be more productive. And I will do it with a smile on my face, looking after the customers that I love helping every day and providing a PREMIUM service that I have been trained to do.
We are in the midst of a recession and our company is asking us to work a bit harder and retain the same levels of pay. I bet Woolworths, Barrat shoes, Lehman staff etc would think we are
lucky! In fact, I bet there isn't anyone outside of BA that doesn't think that's a reasonable proposition.
What more do you want?
The fact is we are achieving nothing by all of this. I personally want to do my bit to get the company back on it's feet. I will work harder. If it has to be me and one other crew member on a flight, then I'll do it (just rhetoric Willie
), I'll have less time off downroute, and I will be more productive. And I will do it with a smile on my face, looking after the customers that I love helping every day and providing a PREMIUM service that I have been trained to do.We are in the midst of a recession and our company is asking us to work a bit harder and retain the same levels of pay. I bet Woolworths, Barrat shoes, Lehman staff etc would think we are
lucky! In fact, I bet there isn't anyone outside of BA that doesn't think that's a reasonable proposition.What more do you want?
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Staggering, truly and completely staggering. As a long faithful passenger of BA, with a keen interest in aviation, and speaking as someone who has been caught in the various 'summers of discontent' I can only laugh at the comments of those who are apparently willing to go to war with the company. BASSA was broken during the last dispute, it can never recover. There is no possibility that BA cabin crew will blindly follow the leadership of a union that can deliver nothing. BA cabin crew are by and large intelligent and aware of the global picture - They meet and talk to people who are affected by the recession every single day, and I have every trust they will work out what to do with a ballot paper. The game is over, accept it or not, it doesn't matter - The world has moved on. There is no fight, because there is no army.
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Hi Classic,
Not sure who you are...but I appreciate the info anyway.
So the target was to hold the Flight Op budget level for 2 years. Actually BASSA did tell me that, I forgot! Nevertheless I am a little 'relieved' (still). The fact that the targets map each other still suggests to me that IFCE are not just increasing the target to avoid it being met, which was a real fear. After all, if BA want the talks to fail, then there is absolutely no hope. I admit, there isn't much anyway....but I do like to hold my glimmer!
Is the productivity side...the loss of the Heavy Captain and the adjusments to report/clear times (am I right in understanding you made those concessions too?) signed off forever, or can you hope to reinstate them in the future/after 2 years?
Can't remember who posted on the impact of 900hrs and the unworkability of long range night stops (was it flyer747?). You would be right if it wasn't for the fact of about 50% of cc being on part time contracts. 900hrs cannot restrict them. This is what BA have been able to use to hold the full time crew to the eu legislation.
I think the point that Unite are the parent union for all the branches mentioned...BASSA, CC89, GSS, A scales etc is not suggesting that any one group can break the law to interfere with the others dispute, but they can nevertheless coordinate the way they choose to apply pressure. As long as each group is in a dispute over its own pay and conditions that's not secondary action.
Not sure who you are...but I appreciate the info anyway.
So the target was to hold the Flight Op budget level for 2 years. Actually BASSA did tell me that, I forgot! Nevertheless I am a little 'relieved' (still). The fact that the targets map each other still suggests to me that IFCE are not just increasing the target to avoid it being met, which was a real fear. After all, if BA want the talks to fail, then there is absolutely no hope. I admit, there isn't much anyway....but I do like to hold my glimmer!
Is the productivity side...the loss of the Heavy Captain and the adjusments to report/clear times (am I right in understanding you made those concessions too?) signed off forever, or can you hope to reinstate them in the future/after 2 years?
Can't remember who posted on the impact of 900hrs and the unworkability of long range night stops (was it flyer747?). You would be right if it wasn't for the fact of about 50% of cc being on part time contracts. 900hrs cannot restrict them. This is what BA have been able to use to hold the full time crew to the eu legislation.
I think the point that Unite are the parent union for all the branches mentioned...BASSA, CC89, GSS, A scales etc is not suggesting that any one group can break the law to interfere with the others dispute, but they can nevertheless coordinate the way they choose to apply pressure. As long as each group is in a dispute over its own pay and conditions that's not secondary action.
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Is the productivity side...the loss of the Heavy Captain and the adjusments to report/clear times (am I right in understanding you made those concessions too?) signed off forever, or can you hope to reinstate them in the future/after 2 years?
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Government should sort out FS pension mess
Yes Walnut (post 72). Gordon Brown has ruined Final Salary schemes in the UK with his steath tax grab on pension tax credits when he was Chancellor. UK pensions schemes have lost around £100 billion up to now. The government should guarantee UK final salary pensions as it guarantees gold plated state pensions. Why should UK companies be so uncompetitive compared with those in the EU that do not have this burden?
Brown has been quick to nationalise the failed banks in the UK, support the car industry via the scrappage scheme and the housing market by cancelling stamp duty on properties under £175,000. Also airlines in the UK generate a lot of income for the goverment via APD, does Brown really want to see this goose die because of the burdens he has placed on UK business and the airline industry in particular?
Brown has been quick to nationalise the failed banks in the UK, support the car industry via the scrappage scheme and the housing market by cancelling stamp duty on properties under £175,000. Also airlines in the UK generate a lot of income for the goverment via APD, does Brown really want to see this goose die because of the burdens he has placed on UK business and the airline industry in particular?
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By the way BaxFactor, you are talking utter rubbish.
The membership of BASSA are absolutely incandescent. Wait until the meeting on Monday and write another post after that when you are better informed.
The membership of BASSA are absolutely incandescent. Wait until the meeting on Monday and write another post after that when you are better informed.
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Stall Pusher.
I couldn't agree with you more......
The 1500 hardliners who attend the meeting and stand to loose the most will give 100% support.
What about the other 13 000 who will not be there..............?
I couldn't agree with you more......
The 1500 hardliners who attend the meeting and stand to loose the most will give 100% support.
What about the other 13 000 who will not be there..............?