British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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BA have consistently confirmed their deadline of 30th June. What is the point of having a deadline if you breach it simply because some unions have failed to reach an agreement by that time? The next time there is a deadline, nobody would take any notice of it.
It seems highly likely that the ACAS talks will give the ground staff sufficient time to dot the i's and cross the t's on what, from the sound of it, was an almost done deal.
BASSA, meanwhile, have led their troops over a cliff. The recent BA offering is infinitely worse than even the original Project Columbus proposals, that caused such outrage at the time. And BAs hand is strengthened since BASSA have already concede, via their own feeble counter "proposal", the principle of pay cuts and headcount reductions. They have badly let down their members, who have my sympathy. The next few months are going to be VERY difficult.
They claim their members are behind them. That is only because they have turned their backs on them.
It seems highly likely that the ACAS talks will give the ground staff sufficient time to dot the i's and cross the t's on what, from the sound of it, was an almost done deal.
BASSA, meanwhile, have led their troops over a cliff. The recent BA offering is infinitely worse than even the original Project Columbus proposals, that caused such outrage at the time. And BAs hand is strengthened since BASSA have already concede, via their own feeble counter "proposal", the principle of pay cuts and headcount reductions. They have badly let down their members, who have my sympathy. The next few months are going to be VERY difficult.
They claim their members are behind them. That is only because they have turned their backs on them.
News filtering through that BA have refused further meetings with Unite.
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Indeed. Sorry, my nuance may have been too, well, nuanced! I meant that the news I was hearing was that BA were not entertaining any further meetings full stop. Brought the use of the word may in the intranet statement re any future ACAS involvement to mind. May not, as well.
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Who do Bassa represent?
2/3 of BA Cabin Crew do earn the market rate, or at least not much above it.
1/3 earn 4 times that. Bassa have fundamentally failed as a union in looking after the majority of their membership. Now they are leading the majority of crew over the cliff to protect the few.
PS the Flight Deck hasn't been asked for any savings. Flight Crew have lost between £3,000 and £6,000 each. So enough Bassa inspired bull about them and us. The problem is your inept, childish, self-serving union not the pilots.
1/3 earn 4 times that. Bassa have fundamentally failed as a union in looking after the majority of their membership. Now they are leading the majority of crew over the cliff to protect the few.
PS the Flight Deck hasn't been asked for any savings. Flight Crew have lost between £3,000 and £6,000 each. So enough Bassa inspired bull about them and us. The problem is your inept, childish, self-serving union not the pilots.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Stop whittering on about pilots salaries/losses. I don't give a flying frig about them. The debate is between cabin crew and BA. I don't give a f*ck if pilots lose £6, £6000 or £60,000. Not my battle.
But I do get hacked off when pilots stick their collective noses in my battle, and regardless of onboard legal and company hierarchy, tell me how much I should earn and how many crew I need to do my job. Go on, tell me where I should live, who I should marry, what car, what school.
The only reason pilots are so concerned is because what amounts to a long term good deal could be f*cked up, because the company has allowed them to be in a position where they have an awful lot to lose. The company has also put cabin crew in a position where we have sod all to lose. So expect no sympathy that your pension or share options may be jepodised. Not my battle, nolonger my concern.
BA did not end talks last night, BA were in agreement that talks could continue, BA have not acknowledged a failure to agree status. BA have no intention of talks succeeding. On this, and only this site I hear how bassa have stalled for months. Takes two. BA changed its proposal whilst negotiations were suspended, one day before the 'self-imposed' deadline. The new proposal moved further away from the union one, not closer, no compromises, nothing that a reasonable person might expect when a company is on its knees desperate for survival. I'm certain if bassa had made the first move towards accepting BA proposals, BA would have quickly re-written them, indeed they did when £82million suddenly became £210million. Agreement was never on the cards.
I cannot believe how gullable people have been. What a stunt work for free was. We may be losing money now, but we are not skint. People choose to work for free when the company publishes that it has £1.4billion in cash banked. Find a compromise, no put the frighteners on. Oh, and in the region of 100 managers, previously made redundant on favourable terms, are being employed as consultants on upto £1000 a day! Paying ex-staff but not current staff.
The press are clearly briefed by BA. The sticking point is redundancies and a pay cut. No, the unions offered a pay cut and 3700 cabin crew expressed an interest in voluntary redundancy. The sticking point is a 37% cut in budget, the decimation of terms and conditions and a drastic cut in variable pay - pay which makes up over half our salaries. We are not stalled over a cut in basic pay. We're stalled because the posts keep moving and Walsh is engineering a dispute. He may have won on that last point.
But I do get hacked off when pilots stick their collective noses in my battle, and regardless of onboard legal and company hierarchy, tell me how much I should earn and how many crew I need to do my job. Go on, tell me where I should live, who I should marry, what car, what school.
The only reason pilots are so concerned is because what amounts to a long term good deal could be f*cked up, because the company has allowed them to be in a position where they have an awful lot to lose. The company has also put cabin crew in a position where we have sod all to lose. So expect no sympathy that your pension or share options may be jepodised. Not my battle, nolonger my concern.
BA did not end talks last night, BA were in agreement that talks could continue, BA have not acknowledged a failure to agree status. BA have no intention of talks succeeding. On this, and only this site I hear how bassa have stalled for months. Takes two. BA changed its proposal whilst negotiations were suspended, one day before the 'self-imposed' deadline. The new proposal moved further away from the union one, not closer, no compromises, nothing that a reasonable person might expect when a company is on its knees desperate for survival. I'm certain if bassa had made the first move towards accepting BA proposals, BA would have quickly re-written them, indeed they did when £82million suddenly became £210million. Agreement was never on the cards.
I cannot believe how gullable people have been. What a stunt work for free was. We may be losing money now, but we are not skint. People choose to work for free when the company publishes that it has £1.4billion in cash banked. Find a compromise, no put the frighteners on. Oh, and in the region of 100 managers, previously made redundant on favourable terms, are being employed as consultants on upto £1000 a day! Paying ex-staff but not current staff.
The press are clearly briefed by BA. The sticking point is redundancies and a pay cut. No, the unions offered a pay cut and 3700 cabin crew expressed an interest in voluntary redundancy. The sticking point is a 37% cut in budget, the decimation of terms and conditions and a drastic cut in variable pay - pay which makes up over half our salaries. We are not stalled over a cut in basic pay. We're stalled because the posts keep moving and Walsh is engineering a dispute. He may have won on that last point.
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PC767
Well, chances are you are going to have to!
And, when they give you a new staff number to go with you new contract, then you really will have been re-numerated!
Like others who have posted, I have great sympathy for the predicament that BA Cabin Crew find themselves in. The vast majority are hard-working crew members who were a delight to fly with, and that includes many of the senior CSDs, who seem to come in for an unfair amount of criticism.
BA Cabin Crew’s major fault has been a distinct lack of interest in their union, and the way it was being run, by the few, for the benefit of the even fewer.
BASSA have completely wasted the last three months, when they should have been negotiating constructively. Sadly they performed exactly as expected by shouting NO, NO, NO, now, what was the question?
As I posted earlier, so many good, long term Cabin Crew, along with lots of excellent new ones, who all deserve better, being let down by a dinosaur of a union.
Lions represented by donkeys.
I will not accept, from anyone who isn't Cabin Crew, how I should be renumerated (sic)
And, when they give you a new staff number to go with you new contract, then you really will have been re-numerated!
Like others who have posted, I have great sympathy for the predicament that BA Cabin Crew find themselves in. The vast majority are hard-working crew members who were a delight to fly with, and that includes many of the senior CSDs, who seem to come in for an unfair amount of criticism.
BA Cabin Crew’s major fault has been a distinct lack of interest in their union, and the way it was being run, by the few, for the benefit of the even fewer.
BASSA have completely wasted the last three months, when they should have been negotiating constructively. Sadly they performed exactly as expected by shouting NO, NO, NO, now, what was the question?
As I posted earlier, so many good, long term Cabin Crew, along with lots of excellent new ones, who all deserve better, being let down by a dinosaur of a union.
Lions represented by donkeys.
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767 and No Jacket
I don't want to be personal , or offend you! Not at all.
But at least just ask yourselves if you are really being fairly and professionally represented.
My wife is crew and it annoys us to see how all you get is spin from Bassa.
We see the lies they spout about pilots, our agreements, and our union.
The pension issue and open skies are cases to consider.
Our union fought them honestly and with transparency, good communications and the best independant legal advice.
The pension battle was brilliantly fought and won, the other was lost on a legal technicality.
I suspect that WW will be happy to sack 100s or even 1000s of crew, and has contingency plans in place.
I have also read their proposal and it may not mean much of a pay drop.
But will result in a dramatic change in productivity.
There is still room for negotiation but Bassa need to start addressing the issues and stop taking it personally. Stop complaining about a lack of respect and find a solution.
I don't want to be personal , or offend you! Not at all.
But at least just ask yourselves if you are really being fairly and professionally represented.
My wife is crew and it annoys us to see how all you get is spin from Bassa.
We see the lies they spout about pilots, our agreements, and our union.
The pension issue and open skies are cases to consider.
Our union fought them honestly and with transparency, good communications and the best independant legal advice.
The pension battle was brilliantly fought and won, the other was lost on a legal technicality.
I suspect that WW will be happy to sack 100s or even 1000s of crew, and has contingency plans in place.
I have also read their proposal and it may not mean much of a pay drop.
But will result in a dramatic change in productivity.
There is still room for negotiation but Bassa need to start addressing the issues and stop taking it personally. Stop complaining about a lack of respect and find a solution.
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strimmer. I was typing/baby sitting whilst you made your post. My post was directed at those before yours.
The blu riband. BA nologer wish to talk.
Overstress. Bassa and wish to die/strike now merchants get my anger too.
The blu riband. BA nologer wish to talk.
Overstress. Bassa and wish to die/strike now merchants get my anger too.
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Bassa reps have always wanted and sought power and influence over the operation - that's what they value most.
All of a sudden someone (WW) turns up who has the audacity to question their authority and power, and Bassa hate it. Hence the constant personal attacks on him. Get rid of him and Bassa will be back in control and will write their own Ts and Cs.
That's why Bassa's proposals have been such ill-considered rubbish, they are far less concerned about negotiating Ts and Cs than they are about getting rid of their nemesis and taking control of the train set again.
Endex for Bassa
All of a sudden someone (WW) turns up who has the audacity to question their authority and power, and Bassa hate it. Hence the constant personal attacks on him. Get rid of him and Bassa will be back in control and will write their own Ts and Cs.
That's why Bassa's proposals have been such ill-considered rubbish, they are far less concerned about negotiating Ts and Cs than they are about getting rid of their nemesis and taking control of the train set again.
Endex for Bassa
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Oh, and in the region of 100 managers, previously made redundant on favourable terms, are being employed as consultants on upto £1000 a day! Paying ex-staff but not current staff.
The blu riband. BA nologer wish to talk.
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I'm sure BA would happily let upto 2000 cabin crew go - it is after all what they have stated. It would certainly be a heck of a sight cheaper for them than any redundancy package.
BASSA members better be very, very, very sure that they are not volunteering for dismissal by taking part in any illegal industrial action.
BASSA do not have a good track record of being open and honest and disclosing all the details to their members - this could and probably will be used by BA lawyers to prevent strike action - again BA have a track record of this, BALPA had to disclose all relevant info, including forum posts to the court over Open Skies.
If there was ever a time for BASSA to smarten their act up it would be right now.
BASSA members better be very, very, very sure that they are not volunteering for dismissal by taking part in any illegal industrial action.
BASSA do not have a good track record of being open and honest and disclosing all the details to their members - this could and probably will be used by BA lawyers to prevent strike action - again BA have a track record of this, BALPA had to disclose all relevant info, including forum posts to the court over Open Skies.
If there was ever a time for BASSA to smarten their act up it would be right now.
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Classic
possibly, but I think it's more likely that these are just ordinary crew, ordinary people, undertrained and prepared, with no particular qualifications or experience, thrust into a heady world of politics and self-importance.
Not to mention expense accounts and weghty expectation.
They have coped, but at their own colleagues expense.
possibly, but I think it's more likely that these are just ordinary crew, ordinary people, undertrained and prepared, with no particular qualifications or experience, thrust into a heady world of politics and self-importance.
Not to mention expense accounts and weghty expectation.
They have coped, but at their own colleagues expense.
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For those that point out that BA keep moving the goal posts. Its because the economy and BA's financial state keep deteriorating. Hence failure to negotiate has brought you to where you are now. I suspect even if they were to come back to the table their demands would change again.
On another note, those that also think the departure of WW will fix everything, Virgin have anounced today that they eare dropping a HKG and a LAX flt and completely suspending/pulling out of Chicago for the winter. Good luck to all of their staff/pilots/cc that will now lose their jobs without a chance to negotiate any thing.
(I've seen the same doom and gloom message from their top man as BA spouted for months - cash flow etc etc. So much for Branson's usual running his mouth off ! )
On another note, those that also think the departure of WW will fix everything, Virgin have anounced today that they eare dropping a HKG and a LAX flt and completely suspending/pulling out of Chicago for the winter. Good luck to all of their staff/pilots/cc that will now lose their jobs without a chance to negotiate any thing.
(I've seen the same doom and gloom message from their top man as BA spouted for months - cash flow etc etc. So much for Branson's usual running his mouth off ! )
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nug.
Do I recall that you claim to be cabin crew? If so why are you so adamant that you and your colleagues should just roll over and accept BA's proposals. Where will it stop. We've already got staff working for free whilst £1.4billion of cash is in the bank - next request, pay to work.
On that point, the company is jubilant that it saved £10million, a raging success the initiative proved to be. Thats 3 days and a couple of hours worth of savings. Failure.
Do I recall that you claim to be cabin crew? If so why are you so adamant that you and your colleagues should just roll over and accept BA's proposals. Where will it stop. We've already got staff working for free whilst £1.4billion of cash is in the bank - next request, pay to work.
On that point, the company is jubilant that it saved £10million, a raging success the initiative proved to be. Thats 3 days and a couple of hours worth of savings. Failure.
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And how long do you think the company will last on £1.4 billion when we're not making any money? Do you think the downturn will be over in a year? You'd better hope it is because we lost £800M last year and we could easily lose that again this year. Saying "No change!" is what got you into this problem in the first place.
At the risk of sounding smug, venting spleens here on pprune is a waste of ink. Those that do have a "vote", i.e BASSA members can do what they wish on their union site and apply pressure where they wish to. The rest of us are merely interested observers with vested interests.
I have no wish to see anybody lose money or lifestyle, but again, it matters not what I wish.
If I were in the position that many BASSA members are in, I would be asking searching questions of my representatives about what has been happening for the past 6 months, and what are the alternatives in the next few weeks.
I would also start researching my employment rights should it all turn nasty. Worse case, I'd also be applying for other jobs.
What I wouldn't do is bet my house on a BASSA victory.
I have no wish to see anybody lose money or lifestyle, but again, it matters not what I wish.
If I were in the position that many BASSA members are in, I would be asking searching questions of my representatives about what has been happening for the past 6 months, and what are the alternatives in the next few weeks.
I would also start researching my employment rights should it all turn nasty. Worse case, I'd also be applying for other jobs.
What I wouldn't do is bet my house on a BASSA victory.
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UNITE
BA is now in dispute with UNITE - not just Bassa, which is affiliated to UNITE.
UNITE represent nearly 30,000 BA workers, not just crew. They are regularly meeting together, something that has never happened before.
WW is definitely in for a rough ride - roll on the ballot papers!
UNITE represent nearly 30,000 BA workers, not just crew. They are regularly meeting together, something that has never happened before.
WW is definitely in for a rough ride - roll on the ballot papers!
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For those crew who do not want to strike (if it comes to that), you have two options: Vote NO to strike but go on strike to follow the big herd, or, Vote NO, stick with it and come to work. The company must protect you and there will be ways of getting you to/from work without you being "ambushed".
Eggs/sticks/stones doesn't scare me. I will stick with what is right for me, I am an individual and I will do what is most suitable to my situation. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me, but we're all entitled to our own opinion.
Gg
Eggs/sticks/stones doesn't scare me. I will stick with what is right for me, I am an individual and I will do what is most suitable to my situation. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me, but we're all entitled to our own opinion.
Gg