British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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I have a phd, 5 years experience, good results etc and I am not even at 35k, working 40 hours per day, 5 days pw!!!
I do consider i am slightly underpaid, but will never strike in current environment, especially during christmas period. I am not arrogant enough to consider I have the right to cancel chirstmas plan of thousands of customers because i consider my (fantastic for cc) package is actually not enough.
And agree with bealine, yes this is an average, which means some persons are even more than that??? Can't believe it - these persons are not living on earth
I do consider i am slightly underpaid, but will never strike in current environment, especially during christmas period. I am not arrogant enough to consider I have the right to cancel chirstmas plan of thousands of customers because i consider my (fantastic for cc) package is actually not enough.
And agree with bealine, yes this is an average, which means some persons are even more than that??? Can't believe it - these persons are not living on earth
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As a BA pilot, I am exasperated by the position we have reached. Whilst downroute, I have tried to gauge the opinions of my cc, and their reasoning.
Sadly, I have known more about the dispute than many (at least a third)
Most of the rest have voted yes, as BASSA have basically told them "support us or your job as you know it is over). The general consensus has been that a strong ballot would force BA back to the table. It must have therefore come as a shock to receive an email from BASSA prior to the ballot result informing them BASSA have withdrawn from all communication with BA.
The final third were in the I'D RATHER BA GO BUST THAN GIVE WALSH A PENNY camp, though still not allways sure what the actual deal was.
I am not at work on the 22nd, but will volunteer to come in and help out in the terminals if required - FOR FREE!! - because I am disgusted with the way our customers have been let down over the holiday season.
Sadly, I have known more about the dispute than many (at least a third)
Most of the rest have voted yes, as BASSA have basically told them "support us or your job as you know it is over). The general consensus has been that a strong ballot would force BA back to the table. It must have therefore come as a shock to receive an email from BASSA prior to the ballot result informing them BASSA have withdrawn from all communication with BA.
The final third were in the I'D RATHER BA GO BUST THAN GIVE WALSH A PENNY camp, though still not allways sure what the actual deal was.
I am not at work on the 22nd, but will volunteer to come in and help out in the terminals if required - FOR FREE!! - because I am disgusted with the way our customers have been let down over the holiday season.
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Pay
This is a tricky one to pin down which is why there are so many weird sums being tossed around by the press.
Our Cabin crew have a starting salary of around 11,500 basic rising through 8 increments to about 13K. This is the only money that is guaranteed. Through overtime, and various allowances it goes up maybe a few grand; yes, this is more than the terminals, why do so many make the move across otherwise? Most of our main crew on the post 1997 contracts can not get a mortgage in the Home counties on their wages; many qualify for tax credits and income assistance. Certainly the pre-1997 contracts are higher than this but not 35K. What happens is that one month a crew member may take home £2000 but next month it could be £1500 and that is dependent on where they have been flying to and the cost of living in the destination. Out of that money, BA deduct any money that was forwarded to them to allow them to eat down-route. If you are on leave, off sick, standby, available, etc then you are back to your basic pay. So take a snapshot of any month, it will look as if some crew are on 35K and some on 11K. A P60 is the only true way to see and those fluctuate wildly year to year (don't get me started on that again).
Just off to phone the pay office and ask where the rest of my pay is, the Daily Mail say I earn it so it must be true!
Our Cabin crew have a starting salary of around 11,500 basic rising through 8 increments to about 13K. This is the only money that is guaranteed. Through overtime, and various allowances it goes up maybe a few grand; yes, this is more than the terminals, why do so many make the move across otherwise? Most of our main crew on the post 1997 contracts can not get a mortgage in the Home counties on their wages; many qualify for tax credits and income assistance. Certainly the pre-1997 contracts are higher than this but not 35K. What happens is that one month a crew member may take home £2000 but next month it could be £1500 and that is dependent on where they have been flying to and the cost of living in the destination. Out of that money, BA deduct any money that was forwarded to them to allow them to eat down-route. If you are on leave, off sick, standby, available, etc then you are back to your basic pay. So take a snapshot of any month, it will look as if some crew are on 35K and some on 11K. A P60 is the only true way to see and those fluctuate wildly year to year (don't get me started on that again).
Just off to phone the pay office and ask where the rest of my pay is, the Daily Mail say I earn it so it must be true!
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"If you faced evacuation on a flight, who would you entrust to get you out safely. BA CC or Low Cost Airlin"
I think it is rather insulting to suggest the low cost carriers and other airlines could not manage an emergency evacuation as well as BA cabin crew can.
I think it is rather insulting to suggest the low cost carriers and other airlines could not manage an emergency evacuation as well as BA cabin crew can.
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Message to BA cabin crew who intend to strike: if you go ahead with this you can rest assured that you'll be contributing to the demise of your employer. You work for a loss-making company. Have you noticed that? Last straw, camel's back, anyone?
Make no mistake: the general public will not tolerate your action and they will not support you. You may cause disruption in the short term , but ultimately you'll be out of a job.
Best of luck!
Make no mistake: the general public will not tolerate your action and they will not support you. You may cause disruption in the short term , but ultimately you'll be out of a job.
Best of luck!
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Perry it is illegal to copy and paste what unite have send out to the union members I have reported your post. I am going to make sure legal action is taking against this website if people carry on copying and pasteing what unite have sent to union members.
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One thing that stands out here is the confusion around pay. I can tell you that I have no idea where these figures come from. I am junior crew SH and earn no where near the amount in the press. I could only wish
. However, I still voted no and I am resigning from the union as we speak. My family need me to have a job even if it is working one crew less
. However, I still voted no and I am resigning from the union as we speak. My family need me to have a job even if it is working one crew less
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Ryanair is the only airline I have have ever flown with on which, on 2 different flights, a passenger was asked to stop reading and pay attention to the emergency briefing.
Junior trash
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I am going to make sure legal action is taking against this website if people carry on copying and pasteing what unite have sent to union members.
As said notice is up in CRC it is in the public domain.
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I'm going to cut and paste his cut and paste - am I going to jail too? Against BASSA rules - maybe. Illegal? Hardly
As expected there have been some distortions of the facts that are being featured in the media regarding the dispute. It seems BA tactics are to provide the Press with some grossly misleading facts and figures, which they know will be fed to all media outlets and misquoted throughout the coming weeks. We refer to the grossly over-stated average earnings in particular. We will shortly publish the correct figures.
Because of this misleading info, some of you will have to field some awkward questions from friends, associates and passengers over the next few days. When on board or on duty we advise saying “it’s best I don’t comment” but "out of uniform" here are a few facts for you to consider and use when replying.
Remember it is still within BA’s power to stop this strike and restart talks now. All they have to do is to agree to revoke the imposition and replace (or pledge to replace) the crew that have been taken off. BASSA will find the £40m that this imposition generated. The ball is in Willie Walsh’s court although, sadly we have already noted he has rejected this offer. Quite simply the strike goes on because of him.
The “12 days” decision was not taken lightly, but it would have been unfair to have held a series of 3 day strikes because that would have exposed the small percentage of crews taking action the first time around. BA are “suspend happy” at the moment and early reprisals could have had an impact on resolve, so it was important all members will be asked to take part. We are all in this together, not just crew working over a 3 day period.
The Xmas decision was also given serious, serious thought. Although this action will cause real heartache amongst the public we have to consider our future employment and terms and conditions as a priority. Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten, certainly by next Christmas, but your terms and conditions are something you will have with you for the rest of your working life. BA must be made to see sense and it was reluctantly felt only "audacious" action would have any effect.
Lots of crew are talking “anonymously” to the press. Some clearly are not genuine crew members, but most are. Remind the media who talk to you that your job is on the line should your identity be revealed. That shows just what sort of company we work for and malevolent atmosphere BA have created. A frightened, bullied workforce.
BA have confirmed that five crew have been suspended on gross misconduct charges for making PA apologies to passengers for slow service - again this shows BA in its true colours. Some of these people are senior, well-respected CSDs who have given the company 30 years of loyalty. The media need to understand just how ruthless BA are under Willie Walsh. Remember this is a man who said you get nowhere with negotiating.
There has been some questions asking why strike when there is a legal judgement pending in February. This legal decision is fine, but we are taking a moral stand here, legal or not, imposition is morally wrong. Breaking of agreements is morally wrong. This is an industrial issue and it is important it is countered industrially, as well as through the Courts.
Questions have also been asked about LGW colleagues already working to inferior terms and conditions. The reason for this situation is well known (especially at LGW) and has historic origins emanating in merging with other airlines. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the LGW agreement they were negotiated by the Unions and agreed with by the membership. Just because one group of people struggle to make ends meet and work their socks off doesn’t mean that is the future for all crew.
Walsh is literally trying to turn the national airline of this country into Ryanair. Not only do we think the crew regard this as a step too far, but we are pretty sure most passengers do too.
If you are contacted by BA in any shape or form regarding this strike - decline to discuss it. You have no obligation to give any assurances or information as to your intentions. Politely say you have no comment.
We know the last 24 hours have been emotionally tough and come as a bit of a jolt to some. But remember we were backed into this corner by BA turning their back on both the negotiations and our offered savings, and then imposing changes to your terms and conditions. That simply left us with no choice to take the path we have all chosen by an incredible ballot result.
At this stressful time, it’s worth repeating an old clich� - “it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees”.
Because of this misleading info, some of you will have to field some awkward questions from friends, associates and passengers over the next few days. When on board or on duty we advise saying “it’s best I don’t comment” but "out of uniform" here are a few facts for you to consider and use when replying.
Remember it is still within BA’s power to stop this strike and restart talks now. All they have to do is to agree to revoke the imposition and replace (or pledge to replace) the crew that have been taken off. BASSA will find the £40m that this imposition generated. The ball is in Willie Walsh’s court although, sadly we have already noted he has rejected this offer. Quite simply the strike goes on because of him.
The “12 days” decision was not taken lightly, but it would have been unfair to have held a series of 3 day strikes because that would have exposed the small percentage of crews taking action the first time around. BA are “suspend happy” at the moment and early reprisals could have had an impact on resolve, so it was important all members will be asked to take part. We are all in this together, not just crew working over a 3 day period.
The Xmas decision was also given serious, serious thought. Although this action will cause real heartache amongst the public we have to consider our future employment and terms and conditions as a priority. Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten, certainly by next Christmas, but your terms and conditions are something you will have with you for the rest of your working life. BA must be made to see sense and it was reluctantly felt only "audacious" action would have any effect.
Lots of crew are talking “anonymously” to the press. Some clearly are not genuine crew members, but most are. Remind the media who talk to you that your job is on the line should your identity be revealed. That shows just what sort of company we work for and malevolent atmosphere BA have created. A frightened, bullied workforce.
BA have confirmed that five crew have been suspended on gross misconduct charges for making PA apologies to passengers for slow service - again this shows BA in its true colours. Some of these people are senior, well-respected CSDs who have given the company 30 years of loyalty. The media need to understand just how ruthless BA are under Willie Walsh. Remember this is a man who said you get nowhere with negotiating.
There has been some questions asking why strike when there is a legal judgement pending in February. This legal decision is fine, but we are taking a moral stand here, legal or not, imposition is morally wrong. Breaking of agreements is morally wrong. This is an industrial issue and it is important it is countered industrially, as well as through the Courts.
Questions have also been asked about LGW colleagues already working to inferior terms and conditions. The reason for this situation is well known (especially at LGW) and has historic origins emanating in merging with other airlines. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the LGW agreement they were negotiated by the Unions and agreed with by the membership. Just because one group of people struggle to make ends meet and work their socks off doesn’t mean that is the future for all crew.
Walsh is literally trying to turn the national airline of this country into Ryanair. Not only do we think the crew regard this as a step too far, but we are pretty sure most passengers do too.
If you are contacted by BA in any shape or form regarding this strike - decline to discuss it. You have no obligation to give any assurances or information as to your intentions. Politely say you have no comment.
We know the last 24 hours have been emotionally tough and come as a bit of a jolt to some. But remember we were backed into this corner by BA turning their back on both the negotiations and our offered savings, and then imposing changes to your terms and conditions. That simply left us with no choice to take the path we have all chosen by an incredible ballot result.
At this stressful time, it’s worth repeating an old clich� - “it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees”.
Well if BASSA want to play the quotes game ("better to die " etc) can I offer them this one:
"What luck for the rulers that men do not think."
Or, to paraphrase: "Most of our now shocked constituents were so concerned with voting for the "X-factor" that they forgot to think about the implications of voting for Industrial Action"
"What luck for the rulers that men do not think."
Or, to paraphrase: "Most of our now shocked constituents were so concerned with voting for the "X-factor" that they forgot to think about the implications of voting for Industrial Action"
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ottergirl
Yes thanks that makes sense.
So BA is proposing to push the compliment down towards minimums on all flights to save cash. The logic is sound although the effect on customer service may be detrimental. I am not one of those who are moaning about current CC service levels, I use the theory that if you treat the CC of any operator in a polite and civilised manner they are likely to return the same. I can only speak from WT level not being in the league of Club!
So if BA management are not proposing anything illegal and are prepared to take the risk on customer service quality then that is their lookout. I cannot see that any part of the strike vote being based on staffing levels is a solid argument.
Being SLF, and therefore an outsider, the discussions about salary and perks has no interest for me other than saying that there are a lot of people in other walks of life who have had to take the rough road over the last year.
The timing of the strike is interesting. Yes it is the busiest time for the airline but it was also guaranteed to arouse the greatest negative reaction from the public. Surely inconveniencing the high value business traveller outside of holiday season when most business travel is required would have generated a lesser negative reaction and perhaps sympathy? Along the lines of 'we will not strike over school holidays because of the effect on Joe Public but we will strike at other times to hit the heads of industry'.
Is any of this making sense? You can see why we are not amused if anyone has a heart attack on the CDG!! There just isnt time! Only joking but it does demonstrate how tight the margins are.
So BA is proposing to push the compliment down towards minimums on all flights to save cash. The logic is sound although the effect on customer service may be detrimental. I am not one of those who are moaning about current CC service levels, I use the theory that if you treat the CC of any operator in a polite and civilised manner they are likely to return the same. I can only speak from WT level not being in the league of Club!
So if BA management are not proposing anything illegal and are prepared to take the risk on customer service quality then that is their lookout. I cannot see that any part of the strike vote being based on staffing levels is a solid argument.
Being SLF, and therefore an outsider, the discussions about salary and perks has no interest for me other than saying that there are a lot of people in other walks of life who have had to take the rough road over the last year.
The timing of the strike is interesting. Yes it is the busiest time for the airline but it was also guaranteed to arouse the greatest negative reaction from the public. Surely inconveniencing the high value business traveller outside of holiday season when most business travel is required would have generated a lesser negative reaction and perhaps sympathy? Along the lines of 'we will not strike over school holidays because of the effect on Joe Public but we will strike at other times to hit the heads of industry'.
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Perry it is illegal to copy and paste what unite have send out to the union members I have reported your post. I am going to make sure legal action is taking against this website if people carry on copying and pasteing what unite have sent to union members.
There are some absolute gems for the media in that release. If you thought public opinion was against CC, you haven't seen nothing yet.
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Pay
This is a tricky one to pin down which is why there are so many weird sums being tossed around by the press.
Our Cabin crew have a starting salary of around 11,500 basic rising through 8 increments to about 13K. This is the only money that is guaranteed. Through overtime, and various allowances it goes up maybe a few grand; yes, this is more than the terminals, why do so many make the move across otherwise? Most of our main crew on the post 1997 contracts can not get a mortgage in the Home counties on their wages; many qualify for tax credits and income assistance. Certainly the pre-1997 contracts are higher than this but not 35K. What happens is that one month a crew member may take home £2000 but next month it could be £1500 and that is dependent on where they have been flying to and the cost of living in the destination. Out of that money, BA deduct any money that was forwarded to them to allow them to eat down-route. If you are on leave, off sick, standby, available, etc then you are back to your basic pay. So take a snapshot of any month, it will look as if some crew are on 35K and some on 11K. A P60 is the only true way to see and those fluctuate wildly year to year (don't get me started on that again).
Just off to phone the pay office and ask where the rest of my pay is, the Daily Mail say I earn it so it must be true!
Our Cabin crew have a starting salary of around 11,500 basic rising through 8 increments to about 13K. This is the only money that is guaranteed. Through overtime, and various allowances it goes up maybe a few grand; yes, this is more than the terminals, why do so many make the move across otherwise? Most of our main crew on the post 1997 contracts can not get a mortgage in the Home counties on their wages; many qualify for tax credits and income assistance. Certainly the pre-1997 contracts are higher than this but not 35K. What happens is that one month a crew member may take home £2000 but next month it could be £1500 and that is dependent on where they have been flying to and the cost of living in the destination. Out of that money, BA deduct any money that was forwarded to them to allow them to eat down-route. If you are on leave, off sick, standby, available, etc then you are back to your basic pay. So take a snapshot of any month, it will look as if some crew are on 35K and some on 11K. A P60 is the only true way to see and those fluctuate wildly year to year (don't get me started on that again).
Just off to phone the pay office and ask where the rest of my pay is, the Daily Mail say I earn it so it must be true!
Just like all the bickering over what the pilots allegedly negotiated, before we got to the truth, there is great exaggeration out there!
I might not like what I am hearing about the strike vote, but at least I am beginning to understand!
Thank you for enlightening me!
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I do not know what the cabin crew salaries are but I can tell that two of them (a couple who fly together all the time) live in the same road as myself. Both are junior crew, one has been there about 5 years and the other 10, they are long haul crew. They seem to have so much time at home I thought they must be part time, on asking them that question they confirmed they are both full time. One drives a brand new BMW convertible, the other an enormous 4x4.
They both voted YES and were delighted there might be a 12 day strike over Christmas, they were calling it a victory yesterday and really beleived Mr Walsh is about to resign due to the ballot results. I mentioned the pension fund problem, they had no idea what I was talking about.
They were both fairly positive about the one crew member off an aircraft (not three as the union has been saying in the media) and thought it can work if the CSD's will allow it to. One said they have been on flights when the CSD has done nothing and on other flights when the CSD did work the new routine worked well. The other one said he is too junior to work in club so could not comment on the new system.
I think new fleet is what is frightening them as they repeatedly mentioned that.
They both voted YES and were delighted there might be a 12 day strike over Christmas, they were calling it a victory yesterday and really beleived Mr Walsh is about to resign due to the ballot results. I mentioned the pension fund problem, they had no idea what I was talking about.
They were both fairly positive about the one crew member off an aircraft (not three as the union has been saying in the media) and thought it can work if the CSD's will allow it to. One said they have been on flights when the CSD has done nothing and on other flights when the CSD did work the new routine worked well. The other one said he is too junior to work in club so could not comment on the new system.
I think new fleet is what is frightening them as they repeatedly mentioned that.
Last edited by Jpax; 15th Dec 2009 at 11:02. Reason: spelling mistake
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Affect Of Strike On Ba Pensions
Has no consideration been given that if this strike is the final straw that breaks BA all the employees (especially those in NAPS) are likely to loose their pensions on top of loosing their jobs?
The deficit in NAPS is so huge that, for example, a senior cabin crew member (CSDs etc) will end up with no pension after all their years of working.
Surely they must have thought through the consequences - or perhaps not!
The deficit in NAPS is so huge that, for example, a senior cabin crew member (CSDs etc) will end up with no pension after all their years of working.
Surely they must have thought through the consequences - or perhaps not!
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The Xmas decision was also given serious, serious thought. Although this action will cause real heartache amongst the public we have to consider our future employment and terms and conditions as a priority. Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten, certainly by next Christmas, but your terms and conditions are something you will have with you for the rest of your working life. BA must be made to see sense and it was reluctantly felt only "audacious" action would have any effect.
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As a senior first officer with a major UK airline, with around £80,000 worth of training debt, I earn less money than some of the CSD's at BA (based on quoted figures).
Got no sympathy I'm afraid guys.
V2
Got no sympathy I'm afraid guys.
V2