British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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I din't know where all the so called NO voters are coming from im only hearing a YES vote perhaps a few non speakers are voting NO well thats a choice you make. I have no doubt that a massive YES will be returned as for the court case we will all have to wait and see as im sure most of you are not qualified to make that judgement. I do not i repeat do not trust this company an inch they have people running the company out for personal gain and when it all goes wrong as it will then take flight off to another company. As for cosy little chats at hotels well that idea came a day late as most of us had put a big fat X in the YES box on the ballot paper and had sent it back in the post good planning once again.
No insult intended, but I thought we'd already established that BASSA do not take kindly to "No" voters. Just wondering if you had considered that to be a factor?
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I know people have a choice and i wouldn't want it any other way but people have told me thats how they voted without any hesitation those comments i can only pass onto you all. I just think that wouldn't this make a fantastic film one day perhaps.
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A film? Are you serious. This is a serious topic and not one for entertainment.
What would it be called - confessions of an incompetent union.
Sadly alas the general public have little interest in your proposed screenplay.
What would it be called - confessions of an incompetent union.
Sadly alas the general public have little interest in your proposed screenplay.
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Everyone has the right to ballot on an issue such as this. Just as everyone has a right to their own opinion.
The overarching issue throughout this entire procedure is that everyone has the right to make such a decision based upon unbiased information. Such information that BASSA has provided its membership has been heavily biased whilst skipping or directly missing out important facts.
I also have heard an awful lot of 'No' voters who have complained about misrepresentation from their Union. There have also been a lot of crew on SH who have decided to withdraw from BASSA.
The Ballot draws only upon intent to take industrial action. It does not specify why industrial action would be taken, over what, specifically the dispute and IA is about nor the requirements to resolve. Hence it is a referendum ballot and thus toothless.
As to the BASSA WIN WIN court case, the follow up case was a given as BASSA failed to gain its injunction. It is standard court practice within a dispute that if the injunction is not granted then the plaintiff has an automatic right to proceed to full court hearing. All costs and complaints will be frozen until such time as a full verdict can be delivered.
You don't need to be 'qualified' to understand or comment it is standard legal proceeding.
The overarching issue throughout this entire procedure is that everyone has the right to make such a decision based upon unbiased information. Such information that BASSA has provided its membership has been heavily biased whilst skipping or directly missing out important facts.
I also have heard an awful lot of 'No' voters who have complained about misrepresentation from their Union. There have also been a lot of crew on SH who have decided to withdraw from BASSA.
The Ballot draws only upon intent to take industrial action. It does not specify why industrial action would be taken, over what, specifically the dispute and IA is about nor the requirements to resolve. Hence it is a referendum ballot and thus toothless.
As to the BASSA WIN WIN court case, the follow up case was a given as BASSA failed to gain its injunction. It is standard court practice within a dispute that if the injunction is not granted then the plaintiff has an automatic right to proceed to full court hearing. All costs and complaints will be frozen until such time as a full verdict can be delivered.
You don't need to be 'qualified' to understand or comment it is standard legal proceeding.
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A film! What, 'Monday the 21st' to replace 'Friday the 13th' as the greatest horror movie ever?
Horror for the lonely BASSA pickets
as they huddle together for warmth watching ALL the BA aircraft soaring skywards packed with happy, contented customers.
Horror for the lonely BASSA pickets
as they huddle together for warmth watching ALL the BA aircraft soaring skywards packed with happy, contented customers.
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I'm serious about a film i have kept all the scripts sent out along the way by both sides i even have a clip of Bill F when you can't see him even blink for several minutes can this be real. Im so looking forward to the next move those cosy little chats at hotels across the country .........who lives near Nottingham very few im sure a waitlist will be created to get a slot to speak to a manager. E-mails galore sent as if bonuses were generated by the more that are sent from deep inside the bunker at Watertide.
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Not so fast.
Watersidewonker wrote.
.
People are starting to discuss the unions' position, (not only cabin crew but increasingly other areas of the airline). I hate to disappoint you but there are a lot of people asking why they are not being represented and instead being put through this process which is totally unnecessary and damaging. As for the 'yes' vote, I think you're right that a majority will vote 'yes'. If you then ask the same person if they want to rip up their contract and withdraw their labour. That's when a lot of people declare and what I am hearing is a big fat NO.
As for cosy hotel room chats, that demonstartes the professionalism of the crew. It would be quite wrong and dangerous to have these conversations onboard, the last 'off aircraft' chat I had (yesterday), involved 4 people, 2 'no' voters and 2 'yes' but upset at being put through the mill again by their union.
During our conversation we discussed the FACTS around what's on the table.
No change to pay.
Increments being paid as normal (between 2% and 7 %).
An option to fix our variable pay elements, based on this years flying which is will be higher than next years. I, (as my name suggests I recently clarified this with a very senior IFCE representative, they confirmed this was optional). So if you doubt this, don't take it and carry on as you are.
Meal allowances being paid as normal.
Not change to any T & C's eg. leave, days off, time off down route etc.
The offer of a share save scheme (2010 -2013)
An additional free bookable ticket for each crew member and their close relatives next year.
The door is still open, an intergrated fleet could still be negoiated.
Yes, we have to work a bit harder, so far that has not been a problem at all. (This allows people to leave and make a contribution towards reducing a predicted loss of £700 to £800 m this year).
Yes, the company applied these measures as 9 months and 3 offers later they could still not negotiate a final agreement.
Imposition is a word used a lot around the patch right now.
Is it not an imposition to allow 2000 members of a union to throw out an offer by the company at a meeting (6th July) without consulting the other 10000+ of the membership?
ArthurScargill welcome to the forum please let us know what you think of the company's offer.
(Watersidewonker, read the following, I think this vindicates what I have just said).
Good Luck!!
I din't know where all the so called NO voters are coming from im only hearing a YES vote perhaps a few non speakers are voting NO well thats a choice you make. I have no doubt that a massive YES will be returned as for the court case we will all have to wait and see as im sure most of you are not qualified to make that judgement. I do not i repeat do not trust this company an inch they have people running the company out for personal gain and when it all goes wrong as it will then take flight off to another company. As for cosy little chats at hotels well that idea came a day late as most of us had put a big fat X in the YES box on the ballot paper and had sent it back in the post good planning once again.
People are starting to discuss the unions' position, (not only cabin crew but increasingly other areas of the airline). I hate to disappoint you but there are a lot of people asking why they are not being represented and instead being put through this process which is totally unnecessary and damaging. As for the 'yes' vote, I think you're right that a majority will vote 'yes'. If you then ask the same person if they want to rip up their contract and withdraw their labour. That's when a lot of people declare and what I am hearing is a big fat NO.
As for cosy hotel room chats, that demonstartes the professionalism of the crew. It would be quite wrong and dangerous to have these conversations onboard, the last 'off aircraft' chat I had (yesterday), involved 4 people, 2 'no' voters and 2 'yes' but upset at being put through the mill again by their union.
During our conversation we discussed the FACTS around what's on the table.
No change to pay.
Increments being paid as normal (between 2% and 7 %).
An option to fix our variable pay elements, based on this years flying which is will be higher than next years. I, (as my name suggests I recently clarified this with a very senior IFCE representative, they confirmed this was optional). So if you doubt this, don't take it and carry on as you are.
Meal allowances being paid as normal.
Not change to any T & C's eg. leave, days off, time off down route etc.
The offer of a share save scheme (2010 -2013)
An additional free bookable ticket for each crew member and their close relatives next year.
The door is still open, an intergrated fleet could still be negoiated.
Yes, we have to work a bit harder, so far that has not been a problem at all. (This allows people to leave and make a contribution towards reducing a predicted loss of £700 to £800 m this year).
Yes, the company applied these measures as 9 months and 3 offers later they could still not negotiate a final agreement.
Imposition is a word used a lot around the patch right now.
Is it not an imposition to allow 2000 members of a union to throw out an offer by the company at a meeting (6th July) without consulting the other 10000+ of the membership?
ArthurScargill welcome to the forum please let us know what you think of the company's offer.
(Watersidewonker, read the following, I think this vindicates what I have just said).
Good Luck!!
I'm glad reality seems to have kicked in and crew appear to be reacting (finally) to the draconian and unrealistic propaganda spouted by the unions.
They've let you down badly. Not because they don't support you but mainly because they have their own interests at heart and i'd have to question exactly what these are.
When you look at the ballot form, the only question you need to ask yourself is:
'Do i want to work for BA post 21st Dec ?'
Its 2009 guys and the option of working for BA whilst maintaining existing salary and T&Cs isn't on the table.
I'm not saying i agree with New Fleet or any of the other new working practices but don't fall in to the trap of being so conceited you think your the only department affected and/or are irreplaceable.
Having said that, i sincerely feel for you having to make that decision whilst working in a very confined/pressurised/close knit ommunity at the moment.
They've let you down badly. Not because they don't support you but mainly because they have their own interests at heart and i'd have to question exactly what these are.
When you look at the ballot form, the only question you need to ask yourself is:
'Do i want to work for BA post 21st Dec ?'
Its 2009 guys and the option of working for BA whilst maintaining existing salary and T&Cs isn't on the table.
I'm not saying i agree with New Fleet or any of the other new working practices but don't fall in to the trap of being so conceited you think your the only department affected and/or are irreplaceable.
Having said that, i sincerely feel for you having to make that decision whilst working in a very confined/pressurised/close knit ommunity at the moment.
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No change to pay.
Increments being paid as normal (between 2% and 7 %).
An option to fix our variable pay elements, based on this years flying which is will be higher than next years. I, (as my name suggests I recently clarified this with a very senior IFCE representative, they confirmed this was optional). So if you doubt this, don't take it and carry on as you are.
Meal allowances being paid as normal.
Not change to any T & C's eg. leave, days off, time off down route etc.
The offer of a share save scheme (2010 -2013)
An additional free bookable ticket for each crew member and their close relatives next year.
The door is still open, an intergrated fleet could still be negoiated.
ArthurScargill welcome to the forum please let us know what you think of the company's offer.
Increments being paid as normal (between 2% and 7 %).
An option to fix our variable pay elements, based on this years flying which is will be higher than next years. I, (as my name suggests I recently clarified this with a very senior IFCE representative, they confirmed this was optional). So if you doubt this, don't take it and carry on as you are.
Meal allowances being paid as normal.
Not change to any T & C's eg. leave, days off, time off down route etc.
The offer of a share save scheme (2010 -2013)
An additional free bookable ticket for each crew member and their close relatives next year.
The door is still open, an intergrated fleet could still be negoiated.
ArthurScargill welcome to the forum please let us know what you think of the company's offer.
Its an interesting comment you make about other areas of BA taking note of this case. It has to be said that sympathy is fast dwindling (I must point out theres no malice [yet] towards Cabin Crew as a group, but bewilderment that so many are prepared to place their destiny in the hands of socialist cretins and disgraced ex-BA staff with agendas of their own).
I might be mistaken but i think Cabin Crew is the only area yet to contribute towards cost savings (which probably doesn't help) and obviously any strike will put our own livelihoods at risk which is why most non-crew won't support/sympathise with any strike action.
from the outside looking in and speaking to (admitedly a very small amount) of crew in recent times when i have been travelling there's certainly an element of 'pressure' from the unions. My own opinion is that the unions have different agenda to those they are alledgedly representing and of course they have FAR less to lose.
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Another NO
I have also made up my mind. After standing back and taking in all the info available to me over the last year or so I have come to a decision.
And it will be another NO to IA.
I thought about this long and hard.
I left BASSA some time ago simply because I wanted to be represented by a responsible union that doesn't behave like children when they bother to turn up for negotiations, if they bother at all.
To me it is now clear that great chances of negotiation have been wasted and lost through BASSA's appalling behaviour and the imposition of changes by BA management is a clear result of that.
Further more, as an intelligent human being I was shocked by the war rhetoric and often untrue or misleading propaganda used by by BASSA.
There are many people thinking like me but do not dare to speak their mind when at work.
Many people seem so relieved when the do get to talk to some one who thinks along my lines, realizing that they are not alone.
We all have a voice in this and will accept anybody's opinion on this without giving them grief or harrasing them.
And all I ask for is the same.
And it will be another NO to IA.
I thought about this long and hard.
I left BASSA some time ago simply because I wanted to be represented by a responsible union that doesn't behave like children when they bother to turn up for negotiations, if they bother at all.
To me it is now clear that great chances of negotiation have been wasted and lost through BASSA's appalling behaviour and the imposition of changes by BA management is a clear result of that.
Further more, as an intelligent human being I was shocked by the war rhetoric and often untrue or misleading propaganda used by by BASSA.
There are many people thinking like me but do not dare to speak their mind when at work.
Many people seem so relieved when the do get to talk to some one who thinks along my lines, realizing that they are not alone.
We all have a voice in this and will accept anybody's opinion on this without giving them grief or harrasing them.
And all I ask for is the same.
Last edited by OliverUK2000; 20th Nov 2009 at 20:07.
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Is there a definative answer on whether this is a strike ballot or just a consultative "willing to strike" ballot?
If there is a majority yes vote can they strike before Christmas or do they then need another ballot with specific reasons?
If there is a majority yes vote can they strike before Christmas or do they then need another ballot with specific reasons?
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What strike, CFC? Aren't you getting a little ahead of yourself? Can you save your BASSA shop-steward tactics for later? Your posting makes very unpleasant reading.
The jury is still out as to what the strike ballot is for and you castigate OliverUK2000?
The jury is still out as to what the strike ballot is for and you castigate OliverUK2000?
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maybe you need to start thinking deeply of when you are asked to work on Strike Days...
Will your strength of feeling be the same when confronting your colleagues...
Will your strength of feeling be the same when confronting your colleagues...
That sounds very like threatening behaviour to me. Can you elaborate as to what you mean?
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CFC
Even if there is any strike. (Looking less and less likely all the time!)
There will be no 'confrontations'. We left that outrageous behaviour (and very many miners!) behind in the 1970s! We will simply be left with those CC with a job, and those without.
If you recall at the last doomed BASSA 'strike', BA arranged for people willing to work to be protected from such bullying. They will do the same again. Those willing to work have a basic human right so to do!
BTW: Bullying and harassment is gross misconduct within BA (Ask your reps!
)
Will your strength of feeling be the same when confronting your colleagues
There will be no 'confrontations'. We left that outrageous behaviour (and very many miners!) behind in the 1970s! We will simply be left with those CC with a job, and those without.
If you recall at the last doomed BASSA 'strike', BA arranged for people willing to work to be protected from such bullying. They will do the same again. Those willing to work have a basic human right so to do!
BTW: Bullying and harassment is gross misconduct within BA (Ask your reps!
)
Last edited by 4468; 19th Nov 2009 at 21:38.
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I've read the recent communication from Unite explaining to all Gatwick crew that they should vote Yes for a number of reasons.
The main one that they repeatedly mention is that the company is imposing a "2.7% pay freeze". I have no idea what it means, and neither I'm sure do the cabin crew at Gatwick.
The communication also claims that the Inland Revenue is planning to raise taxation of allowances to 80%. Can someone tell your reps that the Inland Revenue was abolished in 2005?
This is how careful Bassa are with facts. I would be vary wary of believing anything they publish.
The main one that they repeatedly mention is that the company is imposing a "2.7% pay freeze". I have no idea what it means, and neither I'm sure do the cabin crew at Gatwick.
The communication also claims that the Inland Revenue is planning to raise taxation of allowances to 80%. Can someone tell your reps that the Inland Revenue was abolished in 2005?
This is how careful Bassa are with facts. I would be vary wary of believing anything they publish.
CFC,
A yes majority is far from a foregone conclusion.
What are you are implying? That you and your colleagues will be confronting those that don't fall for BASSA's nonsense? Nasty, but perhaps expected of the BASSA hardliners.
A yes majority will sail through ......
Will your strength of feeling be the same when confronting your colleagues...
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Will your strength of feeling be the same when confronting your colleagues...
With what are you going to onfront those who want to work with ? And another thing, can you confirm the year, decade and century we're in please ?
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Is one cabin crew member off every flights such a big deal?
Yesterday I flew on a BA airbus 319 on a 2 hour flight, they presumably were operating with one less crew and had 4 cabin crew for the cabin layout of 4 rows of club seats.
I was seated in tourist cabin, the drinks + biscuit service was completed in less than 30 minutes. What they did for the rest of the flight I am unsure of but there was nothing more for them to do for the next hour + other than selling some tax free items which took one of them 10 -15 minutes.
This leads me to think they do not have a great deal to do on short haul flights in the tourist cabin even with one less cabin crew. 4 cabin crew on a 319 must be well within the safety limits.
The day before I flew on a 737-300 with another major airline. That flight had 5 rows of business seats, the flight time was 1 hour and they had 3 cabin crew who offered the same service as BA did.
Perhaps there is more to this issue than the passengers are aware of, one crew less did not seem to be any problem at all from where I was sitting yesterday.
Yesterday I flew on a BA airbus 319 on a 2 hour flight, they presumably were operating with one less crew and had 4 cabin crew for the cabin layout of 4 rows of club seats.
I was seated in tourist cabin, the drinks + biscuit service was completed in less than 30 minutes. What they did for the rest of the flight I am unsure of but there was nothing more for them to do for the next hour + other than selling some tax free items which took one of them 10 -15 minutes.
This leads me to think they do not have a great deal to do on short haul flights in the tourist cabin even with one less cabin crew. 4 cabin crew on a 319 must be well within the safety limits.
The day before I flew on a 737-300 with another major airline. That flight had 5 rows of business seats, the flight time was 1 hour and they had 3 cabin crew who offered the same service as BA did.
Perhaps there is more to this issue than the passengers are aware of, one crew less did not seem to be any problem at all from where I was sitting yesterday.
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If i were LGW cabin crew i would be sticking my fingers up at BASSA.
It's not as if their union has done them any favours or looked after them.Infact they are treated like second class citizens.BASSA now need their support but where has the support for them been over the years .Unbelievable.
It's not as if their union has done them any favours or looked after them.Infact they are treated like second class citizens.BASSA now need their support but where has the support for them been over the years .Unbelievable.