British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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We need to have at least 3 local nights at base before we can do another duty. In case of any disruption we can choose whether we want to our full MBTRs after the trip or a minimum of 3 MBTRs to keep our roster fixed.
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LGW diversion
Re the JNB - LGW diversion
The cabin crew agreements now allow the cabin crew to continue after a diversion up to scheme limits and industrial limits.
The crew could continue to LHR under industrial agreements which gives them 19hours 15 duty day.
On this occasion scheme was more limiting as less than three hours bunk rest was achieved.
However Scheme only covers to engines off on the last flying sector. As the FDP finished at LGW and the crew were due to transit by surface transport back to LHR the positioning part was not covered by scheme, the problem being with the crew and the unions and BA there is no reference as to when and how long the crew position for after a engines off in the agreements or in scheme. while this was only LGW - LHR this time, it would be unreasonable to expect crew to position for many hours after a long range duty, If the flight had diverted to Durban on the way to JNB, would it be reasonable for the crew to get on a bus back to JNB about a 5-6 hour journey ?
The view was taken that the crew could position back to LHR and still remain in hours under the industrial agreement of 19hours 15 mins. It was also treated as a long range diversion and regarded as one duty day.
This situation will be brought up at the regular meetings the unions have to sort out such anomalies with in our agreements that cause day to day conflict. ( surprised, well some of BA management and the unions have a fairly healthy relationship)
The two local nights is in our agreements ( didn't apply in this situation) probably needs to be looked at again,changes have been made but are has still made the long range diversion issue more complicated, Bassa offered to remove the double night but to date has not been taken up by BA, I guess this is part of the new disruption proposal.
The cabin crew agreements now allow the cabin crew to continue after a diversion up to scheme limits and industrial limits.
The crew could continue to LHR under industrial agreements which gives them 19hours 15 duty day.
On this occasion scheme was more limiting as less than three hours bunk rest was achieved.
However Scheme only covers to engines off on the last flying sector. As the FDP finished at LGW and the crew were due to transit by surface transport back to LHR the positioning part was not covered by scheme, the problem being with the crew and the unions and BA there is no reference as to when and how long the crew position for after a engines off in the agreements or in scheme. while this was only LGW - LHR this time, it would be unreasonable to expect crew to position for many hours after a long range duty, If the flight had diverted to Durban on the way to JNB, would it be reasonable for the crew to get on a bus back to JNB about a 5-6 hour journey ?
The view was taken that the crew could position back to LHR and still remain in hours under the industrial agreement of 19hours 15 mins. It was also treated as a long range diversion and regarded as one duty day.
This situation will be brought up at the regular meetings the unions have to sort out such anomalies with in our agreements that cause day to day conflict. ( surprised, well some of BA management and the unions have a fairly healthy relationship)
The two local nights is in our agreements ( didn't apply in this situation) probably needs to be looked at again,changes have been made but are has still made the long range diversion issue more complicated, Bassa offered to remove the double night but to date has not been taken up by BA, I guess this is part of the new disruption proposal.
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Ah, the million dollar question. Who really chooses, then? I don't think you really get to choose at all, but by all means keep the numpties in power who dictate to you; look where it's got you.....
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Ah, the million dollar question. Who really chooses, then? I don't think you really get to choose at all, but by all means keep the numpties in power who dictate to you; look where it's got you.....
Just reading this:
British Airways, which is attempting to merge with Iberia of Spain, said that it carried fewer passengers in November than it did a year earlier. BA said in a brief statement that total passenger numbers declined by 3.4 percent last month to 2.342 million people compared with November 2008.
However, the airline added that its planes were 75.9 percent full last month, which was an increase of 1.5 percentage points on the same month last year.
However, the airline added that its planes were 75.9 percent full last month, which was an increase of 1.5 percentage points on the same month last year.
I wonder what the December year-on-year figure is looking like.
Cheers,
D
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If the flight had diverted to Durban on the way to JNB, would it be reasonable for the crew to get on a bus back to JNB about a 5-6 hour journey?
Within the UK, the company have a choice of how they deal with a diversion:
The crew can stay with the aircraft and bring the pax into LHR after an appropriate rest.
The pax can MT to LHR, in which case the cabin crew can go to. The flight crew can remain with the aeroplane.
All can MT to LHR and a standby flight crew can position out to bring the aeroplane back.
Generally, this is not possible at an outstation.
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a fleet of cars turned up to take the crew to LHR
Not sure if "fleet of cars" is perhaps using artistic license, but would it not have been more cost effective to use a single crew bus/coach to get them back to base ?.
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the latest from BASSA.............
Q Why is Unite balloting?
A Because BA has attempted to impose unilateral contractual changes on crew, as well as a host of other impositions. These issues have not been resolved through the industrial relations machinery. As such Unite is now asking for members to take part in a ballot in support of industrial action.
Q Can BA change our contract?
A Strictly, no. BA can only issue letters terminating your contract. They have not done this, but tried unilaterally to imposed changes.
Q Is it legal?
A No and this is why the Union is seeking an injunction as well as pursuing other legal remedies.
Q Does it matter if I vote in the ballot?
A Yes. The company believe they can marginalise your Union Unite. The greater the support for the ballot, the more likely the company is to realise that Unite are the real voice of crew.
Q What is the time line for a ballot?
A First and foremost the Union must give 7 days notice of the opening of a ballot to BA. Then the ballot needs to be concluded and a positive vote achieved. After that the Union has 28 days within which to call action. They must give a weeks notice of any action to BA.
Q Can I be sacked for going on strike?
A Absolutely not. The law is clear that if an individual is on a lawful strike within 12 weeks of when it was called then if they are dismissed they will have an automatic right to unfair dismissal and BA will be penalised and have to pay large amounts of compensation to anybody that they dismiss on this basis.
Q What do I say if BA ring me and ask if I am going to strike?
A The strike ballot is a secret ballot. There is no legal requirement for you to say anything.
Q On the day of a strike do I have to phone in and say that I am on strike or do I just stay at home?
A There is no requirement to phone in. By simply not turning up to work as rostered, you will signal that you are participating in strike action and protected in law for doing so.
Q If I am on a night stop do I operate back to London and what if I have a link?
A All strike action is called for ex base (LHR WW and EF and LGW SFG), therefore crew away from base can operate and return to base. The second part of any link out of base should not be operated.
Q If I am on QRS, SEP or ground duties eg grounded due to maternity, do I still go on strike?
A Yes. We would want all crew at base to strike.
Q If I get stuck down route due to the strike will I still be paid allowances and will our hotel rooms be paid for?
A As the union will call for action ex base then down route you are not on strike and should operate and be paid accordingly.
Q If I am days off for a strike can I put my name down for O/T and then just not turn up?
A There is no point. There will always be some days when a strike is called that fall on crews day off.
Q What do we say to managers if they meet the inbound flights on the day of action?
A Nothing at all!
Q Is there a cut off point for joining Unite?
A No. You can join Unite at anytime. Only your membership of Unite provides you with legal protection.
Q How much pay will I lose if I go on strike?
A This depends upon what your roster is and when the strike falls.
Q Do Unite provide any kind of strike pay?
A Yes. Unite has recently increased its subscriptions in order to ensure members on strike receive improved strike pay.
Q Will we be using the hotel as a base during the strike?
A No. The Union has a brand new office on the Bath Road that will serve as a focal point during any strike
Q Can I volunteer for the picket line and if so how will it be organised, how long will I be expected to be there?
A Anyone can help out with various activities during a strike. This will be organised nearer the time.
Q On the day after a strike do I come in for my rostered duty or do I have to phone available?
A After any strike ceases you must return to normal rostered duties. If the return to work occurs when your means you would have been away from base flying, had you not been on strike, then ring in.
Q If I am on Purser development how will it affect me if I go on strike, and will it affect my chances of promotion in the future?
A You cannot be discriminated against for trade union membership or activity.
Q Is it true that if I have done less than 6 months and I go on strike I will lose my job?
A No. Individuals are protected from dismissal for partaking in legally constituted industrial action if they are members of a trade union.
Q Is it true that anyone with a new entrant contract has signed to say that they won’t take strike action?
A Not to our knowledge and if they do it would be potentially unlawful.
Q Will my I.D be cancelled if I go on strike?
A It shouldn’t be.
Q Will my leave or lieu days be honoured during the strike and will it affect my days off pattern?
A This depends upon circumstances, and whether the strike action falls prior to and during you leave and whether you are participating in such action.
Q If I go on strike can I have my staff travel removed?
A There is a dispute about whether staff travel is contractual or not. A test case will have to be run through an Employment Tribunal arguing that removal of staff travel is removal of a contractual perk and therefore an unlawful deduction. It is not possible for BA to remove parts of the contract as punishment for an individual taking strike action.
Q Can BA just stop paying me regardless of the strike?
A Absolutely not. If any employer stops paying an employee for work done, that employee has an immediate claim for unlawful deduction.
A Because BA has attempted to impose unilateral contractual changes on crew, as well as a host of other impositions. These issues have not been resolved through the industrial relations machinery. As such Unite is now asking for members to take part in a ballot in support of industrial action.
Q Can BA change our contract?
A Strictly, no. BA can only issue letters terminating your contract. They have not done this, but tried unilaterally to imposed changes.
Q Is it legal?
A No and this is why the Union is seeking an injunction as well as pursuing other legal remedies.
Q Does it matter if I vote in the ballot?
A Yes. The company believe they can marginalise your Union Unite. The greater the support for the ballot, the more likely the company is to realise that Unite are the real voice of crew.
Q What is the time line for a ballot?
A First and foremost the Union must give 7 days notice of the opening of a ballot to BA. Then the ballot needs to be concluded and a positive vote achieved. After that the Union has 28 days within which to call action. They must give a weeks notice of any action to BA.
Q Can I be sacked for going on strike?
A Absolutely not. The law is clear that if an individual is on a lawful strike within 12 weeks of when it was called then if they are dismissed they will have an automatic right to unfair dismissal and BA will be penalised and have to pay large amounts of compensation to anybody that they dismiss on this basis.
Q What do I say if BA ring me and ask if I am going to strike?
A The strike ballot is a secret ballot. There is no legal requirement for you to say anything.
Q On the day of a strike do I have to phone in and say that I am on strike or do I just stay at home?
A There is no requirement to phone in. By simply not turning up to work as rostered, you will signal that you are participating in strike action and protected in law for doing so.
Q If I am on a night stop do I operate back to London and what if I have a link?
A All strike action is called for ex base (LHR WW and EF and LGW SFG), therefore crew away from base can operate and return to base. The second part of any link out of base should not be operated.
Q If I am on QRS, SEP or ground duties eg grounded due to maternity, do I still go on strike?
A Yes. We would want all crew at base to strike.
Q If I get stuck down route due to the strike will I still be paid allowances and will our hotel rooms be paid for?
A As the union will call for action ex base then down route you are not on strike and should operate and be paid accordingly.
Q If I am days off for a strike can I put my name down for O/T and then just not turn up?
A There is no point. There will always be some days when a strike is called that fall on crews day off.
Q What do we say to managers if they meet the inbound flights on the day of action?
A Nothing at all!
Q Is there a cut off point for joining Unite?
A No. You can join Unite at anytime. Only your membership of Unite provides you with legal protection.
Q How much pay will I lose if I go on strike?
A This depends upon what your roster is and when the strike falls.
Q Do Unite provide any kind of strike pay?
A Yes. Unite has recently increased its subscriptions in order to ensure members on strike receive improved strike pay.
Q Will we be using the hotel as a base during the strike?
A No. The Union has a brand new office on the Bath Road that will serve as a focal point during any strike
Q Can I volunteer for the picket line and if so how will it be organised, how long will I be expected to be there?
A Anyone can help out with various activities during a strike. This will be organised nearer the time.
Q On the day after a strike do I come in for my rostered duty or do I have to phone available?
A After any strike ceases you must return to normal rostered duties. If the return to work occurs when your means you would have been away from base flying, had you not been on strike, then ring in.
Q If I am on Purser development how will it affect me if I go on strike, and will it affect my chances of promotion in the future?
A You cannot be discriminated against for trade union membership or activity.
Q Is it true that if I have done less than 6 months and I go on strike I will lose my job?
A No. Individuals are protected from dismissal for partaking in legally constituted industrial action if they are members of a trade union.
Q Is it true that anyone with a new entrant contract has signed to say that they won’t take strike action?
A Not to our knowledge and if they do it would be potentially unlawful.
Q Will my I.D be cancelled if I go on strike?
A It shouldn’t be.
Q Will my leave or lieu days be honoured during the strike and will it affect my days off pattern?
A This depends upon circumstances, and whether the strike action falls prior to and during you leave and whether you are participating in such action.
Q If I go on strike can I have my staff travel removed?
A There is a dispute about whether staff travel is contractual or not. A test case will have to be run through an Employment Tribunal arguing that removal of staff travel is removal of a contractual perk and therefore an unlawful deduction. It is not possible for BA to remove parts of the contract as punishment for an individual taking strike action.
Q Can BA just stop paying me regardless of the strike?
A Absolutely not. If any employer stops paying an employee for work done, that employee has an immediate claim for unlawful deduction.
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What will IA achieve?
I personally hope it will achieve a mutually acceptable settlement between both parties.
In fact I personally hope this will be achieved prior to any IA taking place
I personally hope it will achieve a mutually acceptable settlement between both parties.
In fact I personally hope this will be achieved prior to any IA taking place
If you are voting yes then you are voting to strike. Be absolutely prepared to sit at home, whilst the rest of us come into work.Do you honestly think WW will say, oh ok then let's scrap it all and start again? He can't. Firstly for financial reasons, secondly it's now in the hands of the courts and thirdly he doesn't want to! Look what happened last time - the BASSA website closed down because of the abuse they got, but so many have forgotten that fiasco. They sold us down the river - the purser still came off the 747, and we got a cr*p pay deal to boot, which wasn't even on the list. So even if they do negotiate it could happen again. What if we get new fleet, a paycut and eh...no industrial action. Smart.
To vote yes in the vain hope that it will make negotiations happen is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Negotiations didn't work without the threat of IA, there is no reason to think that they will now. I hope everyone thinks very very carefully about what the consequences are before voting yes.
The above represents my own viewpoint and not that of BA.
Last edited by HiFlyer14; 9th Dec 2009 at 10:11.
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Moo,
First off, BA can't change the contracts strictly? Well that's OK because I thought they did it in quite a relaxed, laid-back manner.
And what injunction? They've already sought one and it was denied.
What's the source please? Or are they really recycling their own propaganda?
As for this:
What sort of answer is that? Is it supposed to be a reassuring one?!
the latest from BASSA.............
Q Can BA change our contract?
A Strictly, no. BA can only issue letters terminating your contract. They have not done this, but tried unilaterally to imposed changes.
Q Is it legal?
A No and this is why the Union is seeking an injunction as well as pursuing other legal remedies.
Q Can BA change our contract?
A Strictly, no. BA can only issue letters terminating your contract. They have not done this, but tried unilaterally to imposed changes.
Q Is it legal?
A No and this is why the Union is seeking an injunction as well as pursuing other legal remedies.
And what injunction? They've already sought one and it was denied.
What's the source please? Or are they really recycling their own propaganda?
As for this:
Q Will my I.D <sic> be cancelled if I go on strike?
A It shouldn’t be.
A It shouldn’t be.
Last edited by Desertia; 9th Dec 2009 at 10:04. Reason: IDs
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If you are voting yes - be prepared to go out on strike - don't chicken out and go to work!
If you are voting yes because you want the company to negotiate again - what makes you think they will? They have been trying for the past 9 months with your so called union run by a bunch of old dinosaurs - who have no interest in you whatsoever but themselves - which is amusing because some of them are surely due to retirement in a few years?
Look at your previous strikes - huge fiascos. What exactly have the gained? Nada! Zip! The company still got their way through and this will also happen this time - and even harder with WW at the front. When will BASSA ever learn?
If you are voting yes because you want the company to negotiate again - what makes you think they will? They have been trying for the past 9 months with your so called union run by a bunch of old dinosaurs - who have no interest in you whatsoever but themselves - which is amusing because some of them are surely due to retirement in a few years?
Look at your previous strikes - huge fiascos. What exactly have the gained? Nada! Zip! The company still got their way through and this will also happen this time - and even harder with WW at the front. When will BASSA ever learn?
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Q If I go on strike can I have my staff travel removed?
A There is a dispute about whether staff travel is contractual or not. A test case will have to be run through an Employment Tribunal arguing that removal of staff travel is removal of a contractual perk and therefore an unlawful deduction. It is not possible for BA to remove parts of the contract as punishment for an individual taking strike action.
A There is a dispute about whether staff travel is contractual or not. A test case will have to be run through an Employment Tribunal arguing that removal of staff travel is removal of a contractual perk and therefore an unlawful deduction. It is not possible for BA to remove parts of the contract as punishment for an individual taking strike action.
as far as I know
Staff travel is a non-contractual and discretionary benefit granted at the sole discretion of BA and as such can be withdrawn or varied at the sole discretion of the Company at any time.
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the lunatic fringe
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Q Can I be sacked for going on strike?
A Absolutely not. The law is clear that if an individual is on a lawful strike within 12 weeks of when it was called then if they are dismissed they will have an automatic right to unfair dismissal and BA will be penalised and have to pay large amounts of compensation to anybody that they dismiss on this basis.
A Absolutely not. The law is clear that if an individual is on a lawful strike within 12 weeks of when it was called then if they are dismissed they will have an automatic right to unfair dismissal and BA will be penalised and have to pay large amounts of compensation to anybody that they dismiss on this basis.
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Moo,
The latsest from BASSA you provided,
The list of Q & A
Can staff travel be removed when a person strikes?
A test case???
It states quite clearly that staff travel is NON-CONRACTUAL and can be removed or varied at any time.
Staff travel is removed when staff report sick, let alone go on strike.
It is usual that staff travel is suspended for everyone when a strike is called, it happened in 2007 for a day or two when no strike actually happened.
I know of a few people who did strike in 1997 and they lost their staff travel for a short time.
The latsest from BASSA you provided,
The list of Q & A
Can staff travel be removed when a person strikes?
A test case???
It states quite clearly that staff travel is NON-CONRACTUAL and can be removed or varied at any time.
Staff travel is removed when staff report sick, let alone go on strike.
It is usual that staff travel is suspended for everyone when a strike is called, it happened in 2007 for a day or two when no strike actually happened.
I know of a few people who did strike in 1997 and they lost their staff travel for a short time.
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Created on 4th November, which I think just about predates the injuction attempt? You'd think whoever worked on it today would have actually read the thing before publishing it.
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Re staff travel.
If I remember correctly, BA said they would before the strike began and did withdraw staff travel from the strikers in 1997.
I think it was intended that it should be for one year.
So many people went sick on the day(s) of the strike that the few people who had gone on strike felt they had been treated very unfairly (and I agreed with them at the time).
BA, although it was not their fault, kindly, in my opinion, agreed to restore staff travel to the strikers after about two weeks.
Regarding ID cards
I think BA would be well within their rights to withdraw ID cards from strikers.
In fact it may be taken out of BA's hands by the DoT.
If I remember correctly, BA said they would before the strike began and did withdraw staff travel from the strikers in 1997.
I think it was intended that it should be for one year.
So many people went sick on the day(s) of the strike that the few people who had gone on strike felt they had been treated very unfairly (and I agreed with them at the time).
BA, although it was not their fault, kindly, in my opinion, agreed to restore staff travel to the strikers after about two weeks.
Regarding ID cards
I think BA would be well within their rights to withdraw ID cards from strikers.
In fact it may be taken out of BA's hands by the DoT.
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"Q How much pay will I lose if I go on strike?
A This depends upon what your roster is and when the strike falls."
What sort of answer is that?
The answer that they are trying to avoid giving is:
A. All of it for every day you are on strike. Basic, allowances, pension contribution. A week's strike means a quarter of your payslip is gone.
(Since union fees have increased to improve strike pay, presumably the fees will be reduced again if no strike occurs?)
Q Can I be sacked?
A. Yes, just as BA employees were suspended during the GG dispute, some later sacked, some later reinstated.
A This depends upon what your roster is and when the strike falls."
What sort of answer is that?
The answer that they are trying to avoid giving is:
A. All of it for every day you are on strike. Basic, allowances, pension contribution. A week's strike means a quarter of your payslip is gone.
(Since union fees have increased to improve strike pay, presumably the fees will be reduced again if no strike occurs?)
Q Can I be sacked?
A. Yes, just as BA employees were suspended during the GG dispute, some later sacked, some later reinstated.
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Q Can I be legally sacked for going on strike?
A Absolutely not. The law is clear that if an individual is on a lawful strike within 12 weeks of when it was called then if they are dismissed they will have an automatic right to unfair dismissal and BA will be penalised and have to pay large amounts of compensation to anybody that they dismiss on this basis.
Q Can I be illegally sacked?
A. Yes, just as BA employees were suspended during the GG dispute, some later sacked, some later reinstated.
Crew have to decide which way up the coin will fall. Both are correct.
A Absolutely not. The law is clear that if an individual is on a lawful strike within 12 weeks of when it was called then if they are dismissed they will have an automatic right to unfair dismissal and BA will be penalised and have to pay large amounts of compensation to anybody that they dismiss on this basis.
Q Can I be illegally sacked?
A. Yes, just as BA employees were suspended during the GG dispute, some later sacked, some later reinstated.
Crew have to decide which way up the coin will fall. Both are correct.