British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Surely its about time that the BA staff actuallly realise that they may have to make some sacrifices.
Poor forward planning and awful upper management decisions have created a loss this year. However, passenger numbers at BA have not dropped significantly in the last 12 months so at least its not all doom and gloom and is far from unrecoverable.
Huge fines and legal fees for price fixing, making a record loss, allowing customer service to decline (both in the air and on the ground), creating a total disaster of T5's launch and whipping up ridiculous media frenzy about working for free for a month, the question must be asked, what is Walsh still doing in that position? He is totally out of his depth with British Airways and should be shown the door, preferably without his golden parachute.
The whole issue (of working for free) has projected a completely unprofessional image to the general public about BA and is not the sort of thing that the Executive Club members expect from their prestigious flag carrier.
But is it actually possible to live on 11k per annum in this day and age without needing to visit a soup kitchen from time to time
Particularly those who have recently had all their travel concessions, however minimal, removed by the BA Board, whilst the same Board have voted to keep theirs for LIFE, regardless of how little time they might have served.
Let Them Eat Cake. Nil Illegitimum Carborundum.
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9 to 5'ers
dns,
While I am sympathetic to your predictament, I think you will find that even on the outside, the majority of jobs have their positive and negative points.
As a 9 to 5'er (albeit on garden leave), the usual downsides are the daily grind of the regular commute, sometimes little or no work variation, office politics, kowtowing to the Boss (which I tend to refrain from doing, which has probably contributed to my current situation), eating mediocre canteen food and paying for the privilege, working with people that you rather wouldn't (although applies to all sectors) and solemn obeyance of inane health & safety rules. And when the opportunity does arise to go somewhere different through work, in my experience it is often in the depths of winter to some inhospitable part of the world, e.g. another office block in the UK.
In short, I think we can call it 'office tedium'. Sure the grass may seem greener but often there is an awful lot of drudgery as well. It all probably boils down to which occupation one prefers, the assciated lifestyle and whether one wishes to persevere.
While I am sympathetic to your predictament, I think you will find that even on the outside, the majority of jobs have their positive and negative points.
As a 9 to 5'er (albeit on garden leave), the usual downsides are the daily grind of the regular commute, sometimes little or no work variation, office politics, kowtowing to the Boss (which I tend to refrain from doing, which has probably contributed to my current situation), eating mediocre canteen food and paying for the privilege, working with people that you rather wouldn't (although applies to all sectors) and solemn obeyance of inane health & safety rules. And when the opportunity does arise to go somewhere different through work, in my experience it is often in the depths of winter to some inhospitable part of the world, e.g. another office block in the UK.
In short, I think we can call it 'office tedium'. Sure the grass may seem greener but often there is an awful lot of drudgery as well. It all probably boils down to which occupation one prefers, the assciated lifestyle and whether one wishes to persevere.
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how do you build a life on 782 pounds a month after tax and NI payments deducted.
That is why BA's offer includes a monthly payment that averages out these variables. Indeed for the average new contract cc the BA offer means you can continue to bring home EXACTLY the same as you do now, just that you have to work a bit harder for it.
There are thousands of people in Longbridge, Luton, Crawley, you name it, who would love to have been offered an "efficiency saving" like that, but instead they lost their jobs.
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HiFlyer14
That's scary - I could have written the exact same words myself. 
Are we the only crew that feel like this??
Are we the only crew that feel like this??
It's beyond me why they suggested a pay cut and pay freeze but it makes me more convinced that they copied BALPA's deal without actually reading it through what it included.
I am also scared over the fact that I fear some crew don't know the difference between the difference between BA's and BASSA's proposals. The last time we were aiming for a strike many crew didn't even know what they were voting for but still voted for it because BASSA said so.
My starter for ten is that BA want:
CSDs to work onboard
Crew complement reduced - maybe not as much as currently on the list
EF Fixed Links
Some downroute nightstops
New Contract Crew
ORP
CSDs to work onboard
Crew complement reduced - maybe not as much as currently on the list
EF Fixed Links
Some downroute nightstops
New Contract Crew
ORP
Crewing levels could be negotiated but it won't help by refusing it abruptly when it can be actually done at LGW. I also heard one crew member saying crewing levels shouldn't be the same as LGW is known to be the "leisure base" at BA and it requires less crew. There are some services, both domestic and international on EF, that would require more crew to complete the service. However I still think it's down to the crew and their attitude.
EF Fixed Links would improve efficiency and not leave crew sitting in the CRC for hours on their turnaround. Instead of doing a ten hour duty day with only three sectors and the vast majority of the time spent at the CRC they should squeeze in another sector. It would also take up the hours and mean less time at work.
Some destinations could still be nightstop even when the clock changes. IAH and PEK to mention a few. PHX could also be taken down to a nightstop. It would be hard work but it's all down to negotiation and if the union would show a bit of cooperativeness perhaps it wouldn't include all destinations.
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sharpclassic
Please tell me that I'm wrong, but I've heard that some 'old school' cabin crew are on circa £60,000 a year...
Any truth in this?! Surely not!!
Any truth in this?! Surely not!!
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Mercenary Pilot wrote
"However, passenger numbers at BA have not dropped significantly in the last 12 months so at least its not all doom and gloom and is far from unrecoverable."
there may be only fewer less pax but its what they are paying that affects any business
"However, passenger numbers at BA have not dropped significantly in the last 12 months so at least its not all doom and gloom and is far from unrecoverable."
there may be only fewer less pax but its what they are paying that affects any business
Controversial, moi?
BASSA are an appalling union. Those of us with with longer memories recall how Cabin Crew 89 was formed from crew so depressed and disillusioned with the idiots that ran BASSA. At its peak I believe CC89 had over 2000 members.
Unfortunately through various union mergers CC89 members found themselves being represented again by.....you guessed it.....BASSA!
BASSA is, at long last, going to finally be dealt the mortal blow which is probably 20 years overdue. If it isn't BA will follow the path of the likes of Sabena. In some ways there are groups within BA who would deserve all that that entails but it would be a shame for the probably 70% of employees who really try to make the airline successful and accept that the world has changed and we have to change with it.
The pilots are fortunate that we are represented by some very intelligent reps and despite having some very fraught and tense negotiations over the past 5 years or so have always managed to arrive at an honourable settlement over most issues (Open Lies excepted). Oh that BASSA had a tenth of BALPA's skill and ability.
Unfortunately through various union mergers CC89 members found themselves being represented again by.....you guessed it.....BASSA!
BASSA is, at long last, going to finally be dealt the mortal blow which is probably 20 years overdue. If it isn't BA will follow the path of the likes of Sabena. In some ways there are groups within BA who would deserve all that that entails but it would be a shame for the probably 70% of employees who really try to make the airline successful and accept that the world has changed and we have to change with it.
The pilots are fortunate that we are represented by some very intelligent reps and despite having some very fraught and tense negotiations over the past 5 years or so have always managed to arrive at an honourable settlement over most issues (Open Lies excepted). Oh that BASSA had a tenth of BALPA's skill and ability.
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Stop winging
My name is Barry Courtney. I do not travel under a suedonim. I was paid as a pilot . If you are paid as a steward a stewardess a baggage handler or a manager , then so be it. you are paid for what you do. if you do not like it, then change your job.
Regards,
A very happy retireree.
Miss all my wonderful friends.
Regards,
A very happy retireree.
Miss all my wonderful friends.
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But today, look at CWL and over at the Base now, a squadron of -436's, 777's, 767's all parked up, yes, they are rotated to give the impression of maintenance but no one is taken in by that, they are aircraft that BA cannot fill. Ryanair and EasyJet are taking new delivieries every few day/week so whats different with them. How can do they survive and expand? Their cost basis is lower.
It's all very well saying that BA cabin crew are overpaid when compared to Ryanair & Easy, but then so are the Flight crew, check in, loaders management etc. etc.
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all very well saying that BA cabin crew are overpaid when compared to Ryanair & Easy, but then so are the Flight crew, check in, loaders management etc. etc.
The remaining cc will still be the best paid in the uk, but the huge distortions that are currently present would disappear.
As I have said before, new contract main cc should not see ANY reduction in pay as a result of BA's proposals. They will just have to do a bit more work for it, that is all.
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"rmac I agree not much indeed but plenty of your collegues who voted in favour of the deal you have earn more than 6 times that ."
wrote "Sudden Twang"
Not my deal ST, check my profile. I'm an impartial observer, however I do have a lot of M&A experience with struggling companies and can assure you that the biggest asset to be acquired is the human capital. Often the biggest problem in any failing business is non-core objectives of a top heavy management layer (or worse layers, plural
).
My first actions on acquiring a failing company centre on making sure that the bulk of income from operations is channeled to delivering the service that the income providers expect for the money they have parted with, if you provide sub standard service then the business is in a spiral dive.
Then I cut out everything that does not contribute to that goal, and I mean everything. All that remains is customer facing "need to have", some of the nice to have can be built back in at a later stage.
The only problem with this is that it cuts across most of the interests of the decision makers and committee members so it can only ever happen if the board of directors and CEO are committed to it. Often these very people have a lot of skeletons in their share options cupboards for which their middle management keep the keys. You can see the problem I think...
As an aside to the process, the unions are usually little better and can often be "bought off".
Whatever you do you are all hostages to fortune if you are at the service delivery end of the business. Industrial action will only tighten the spiral dive and hasten your end.
There are usually two outcomes, 1. The business goes to the wall and new buyers get the opportunity for a new beginning or 2. Activist shareholders are strong and smart enough (rare occurence) to appoint a new and radical executive team to take the necessary action, which usually begins with getting rid of a great proportion of the management layers.
I wish you all the best of luck with it.
rmac
wrote "Sudden Twang"
Not my deal ST, check my profile. I'm an impartial observer, however I do have a lot of M&A experience with struggling companies and can assure you that the biggest asset to be acquired is the human capital. Often the biggest problem in any failing business is non-core objectives of a top heavy management layer (or worse layers, plural
).My first actions on acquiring a failing company centre on making sure that the bulk of income from operations is channeled to delivering the service that the income providers expect for the money they have parted with, if you provide sub standard service then the business is in a spiral dive.
Then I cut out everything that does not contribute to that goal, and I mean everything. All that remains is customer facing "need to have", some of the nice to have can be built back in at a later stage.
The only problem with this is that it cuts across most of the interests of the decision makers and committee members so it can only ever happen if the board of directors and CEO are committed to it. Often these very people have a lot of skeletons in their share options cupboards for which their middle management keep the keys. You can see the problem I think...
As an aside to the process, the unions are usually little better and can often be "bought off".
Whatever you do you are all hostages to fortune if you are at the service delivery end of the business. Industrial action will only tighten the spiral dive and hasten your end.
There are usually two outcomes, 1. The business goes to the wall and new buyers get the opportunity for a new beginning or 2. Activist shareholders are strong and smart enough (rare occurence) to appoint a new and radical executive team to take the necessary action, which usually begins with getting rid of a great proportion of the management layers.
I wish you all the best of luck with it.
rmac
Last edited by rmac; 7th Jul 2009 at 07:40.
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You cannot compare Ryanair or EasyJet to BA as they run under totally different business models hence cost bases. Ryanair and Easy rely on expansion and new routes coupled with a very low cost base. Night stopping Ryanair or Easyjet crew anyone? Very rare.
I think you will find that BA has benchmarked, over the past couple of years, the Cabin Crew, loaders, pilots, ground handlers, managers etc, etc, etc against other legacy, full service LH/SH carriers such as AF/KLM, Virgin, Emirates, Turkish, United, AA, Delta etc. This will have been done for each years business plan to ensure that the managers are aware of where BA's staff costs are heading. That is after all what they are paid to do. BASSA seems to believe that BA has 'snapshot' the market. I find that very hard to believe. Whilst BASSA might not have done its homework, if it had it could well have seen a lot of the BA demands coming a long time ago, the BA management certainly have done theirs. This is why I, personally, fear for the BASSA membership.
Most departments will have adjusted themselves over the period to ensure that BA remains an 'attractive' place to work by offering market rate + 10%.
As BASSA have failed to adequately adjust the market rate of the CC over the past 10-20 years you can probably see where the comparative graph is heading.
Hence the reason for such a drop now.
There is no point in BASSA looking 'over the fence' at other departments. It really is about time that BASSA started looking inward to their own organisation and see that, whilst protecting the top 10% of CC, they have been neglecting the other 90% through inadequate future planning and representation.
If you want pilot wages and pilot T's & C's then go to Oxford and get a licence, reapply from the beginning as a pilot. You might be surprised what the starting wage actually is for a self sponsored pilot! Or indeed quite how difficult it is to get into BA as an 'Ab Initio', trust me you need to be very, very good. If you want to compare managers wages then put yourself on a rolling 12 monthly contract, achieve the performance related targets and, if you achieve above you might get a bonus, if you achieve below, no contract renewal!
BASSA needs to look inward, sort out its own internal failings and start looking after its members with honest open appraisals about what affects CC not what every other Tom, Dick and Harry are doing. Time to leave the playground BASSA and come and join the real world.
rmac,
Interestingly that seems to be the general City opinion of why Willie Walsh was brought in, for exactly this purpose. He has already culled a large swath of middle management and now wishes to rationalise the 'front line' which, to this day, is over crewed. He is hard nosed enough to push this all through and, as Openskies demonstrated, has the ability to explore all avenues to push his business plan through.
From friends who work in the City in some major financial institutions BA is, was and remains a good investment opportunity IF the company can reign in and ring fence some of the militant aspects of its core workforce. Without the ability to control disruption caused by external or internal factors then the investment will not come. Hence the deadline to get things done.
I think you will find that BA has benchmarked, over the past couple of years, the Cabin Crew, loaders, pilots, ground handlers, managers etc, etc, etc against other legacy, full service LH/SH carriers such as AF/KLM, Virgin, Emirates, Turkish, United, AA, Delta etc. This will have been done for each years business plan to ensure that the managers are aware of where BA's staff costs are heading. That is after all what they are paid to do. BASSA seems to believe that BA has 'snapshot' the market. I find that very hard to believe. Whilst BASSA might not have done its homework, if it had it could well have seen a lot of the BA demands coming a long time ago, the BA management certainly have done theirs. This is why I, personally, fear for the BASSA membership.
Most departments will have adjusted themselves over the period to ensure that BA remains an 'attractive' place to work by offering market rate + 10%.
As BASSA have failed to adequately adjust the market rate of the CC over the past 10-20 years you can probably see where the comparative graph is heading.
Hence the reason for such a drop now.
There is no point in BASSA looking 'over the fence' at other departments. It really is about time that BASSA started looking inward to their own organisation and see that, whilst protecting the top 10% of CC, they have been neglecting the other 90% through inadequate future planning and representation.
If you want pilot wages and pilot T's & C's then go to Oxford and get a licence, reapply from the beginning as a pilot. You might be surprised what the starting wage actually is for a self sponsored pilot! Or indeed quite how difficult it is to get into BA as an 'Ab Initio', trust me you need to be very, very good. If you want to compare managers wages then put yourself on a rolling 12 monthly contract, achieve the performance related targets and, if you achieve above you might get a bonus, if you achieve below, no contract renewal!
BASSA needs to look inward, sort out its own internal failings and start looking after its members with honest open appraisals about what affects CC not what every other Tom, Dick and Harry are doing. Time to leave the playground BASSA and come and join the real world.
There are usually two outcomes, 1. The business goes to the wall and new buyers get the opportunity for a new beginning or 2. Activist shareholders are strong and smart enough (rare occurence) to appoint a new and radical executive team to take the necessary action, which usually begins with getting rid of a great proportion of the management layers.
Interestingly that seems to be the general City opinion of why Willie Walsh was brought in, for exactly this purpose. He has already culled a large swath of middle management and now wishes to rationalise the 'front line' which, to this day, is over crewed. He is hard nosed enough to push this all through and, as Openskies demonstrated, has the ability to explore all avenues to push his business plan through.
From friends who work in the City in some major financial institutions BA is, was and remains a good investment opportunity IF the company can reign in and ring fence some of the militant aspects of its core workforce. Without the ability to control disruption caused by external or internal factors then the investment will not come. Hence the deadline to get things done.
Last edited by wobble2plank; 7th Jul 2009 at 08:04.
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£173M
As I understand it now, Bassa are working on a breakdown on how they achieved the £173M savings that was part of the proposal.
So, let me get this straight: They said that they could save £173M, but no costing or analysis. Now they are working on the breakdown to 'prove' the savings.
Er is it just me or is that the wrong way round? It seems to me that they are now frantically trying to make sums fit an answer they have already given!!!!
So, let me get this straight: They said that they could save £173M, but no costing or analysis. Now they are working on the breakdown to 'prove' the savings.
Er is it just me or is that the wrong way round? It seems to me that they are now frantically trying to make sums fit an answer they have already given!!!!
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To quote Jeremy Clarkson
'Some say' that the proposals from BA were presented in their 'raw' format to the Kempton Park meeting.
As BASSA had, supposedly, been in 'intense' meetings with BA for the past 4 months from February, they don't seem to have changed many of the proposals? Or, indeed, even looked at them?
So, what exactly have BASSA been 'negotiating'?
'Some say' that the proposals from BA were presented in their 'raw' format to the Kempton Park meeting.
As BASSA had, supposedly, been in 'intense' meetings with BA for the past 4 months from February, they don't seem to have changed many of the proposals? Or, indeed, even looked at them?
So, what exactly have BASSA been 'negotiating'?
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sharpclassic wrote;
Please tell me that I'm wrong, but I've heard that some 'old school' cabin crew are on circa £60,000 a year...
Any truth in this?! Surely not!!
Congratulate your well informed friends for giving you such accurate info....they failed to mention that this figure is for those CSD's on a 50% contract, or was that 33%....
Please tell me that I'm wrong, but I've heard that some 'old school' cabin crew are on circa £60,000 a year...
Any truth in this?! Surely not!!
Congratulate your well informed friends for giving you such accurate info....they failed to mention that this figure is for those CSD's on a 50% contract, or was that 33%....
