British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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Time for Change
Time for Change - Enough of the moaning, back biting, name calling mud slinging what ever you like to call it - Time to do something about.
Vote of No Confidence | Facebook
I have nothing to hide and can confirm that I
a) Do not work for BA
b) Am not in the pay of BA nor am I a BA "mole" - I am not hiding behind a false name, a private profile, have any hidden agenda
c) I have not been promised any back handers, free flights, free upgrades (I dont even fly with BA), or free shares
I have many many friends who are Cabin Crew and Flight Crew who all to often feel too intimidated to say or do anything publicly for fear of "what might happen!". So here I am as their Spokesperson.
I just think its time that someone "walked the walk" as well as "talked the talk"
What's round the corner......
Vote of No Confidence | Facebook
I have nothing to hide and can confirm that I
a) Do not work for BA
b) Am not in the pay of BA nor am I a BA "mole" - I am not hiding behind a false name, a private profile, have any hidden agenda
c) I have not been promised any back handers, free flights, free upgrades (I dont even fly with BA), or free shares
I have many many friends who are Cabin Crew and Flight Crew who all to often feel too intimidated to say or do anything publicly for fear of "what might happen!". So here I am as their Spokesperson.
I just think its time that someone "walked the walk" as well as "talked the talk"
What's round the corner......
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Whatever the motive; I would be very cautious to use facebook for matters relating to employment. There are enough precedents of individuals being dismissed or warned for using the site to discuss company affairs.
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Just as an aside and I promise you this is true, as sometimes happens I am asked to verify my login with a series of letters. Today I had to put in
BAgaga !!
Random or someone with a sense of humour!
BAgaga !!
Random or someone with a sense of humour!
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Whatever the motive; I would be very cautious to use facebook for matters relating to employment. There are enough precedents of individuals being dismissed or warned for using the site to discuss company affairs.
BA is no longer the excellent, tolerant employer it used to be. For all the charade of "Equal Opportunities", "Proudly Diverse" and all the rest of the corporate mumbo-jumbo, they really have employed some nasty pieces of work in the corridors of power!
If only we had decent, caring managers who recognised that British Airways' greatest asset is its customer-facing staff - the unions would no longer be necessary.
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Carnage Matey
I find it hard to believe the latest BASSA statement was posted on their website, or perhaps I shouldn't?
The only thing missing is the rope to hang themselves.
I find it hard to believe the latest BASSA statement was posted on their website, or perhaps I shouldn't?
The only thing missing is the rope to hang themselves.
This is the original statement that CM adulterated.
A MESSAGE TO ALL BA PASSENGERS!
Why are British Airways cabin crew balloting for industrial action?
BA say none of their crew will be financially worse off with the impositions of taking a crew member off the aircraft on November 16th and it will just mean everyone will have to work that little bit harder. While on the surface what BA are saying is not untrue it is the unspoken underlying plans that do much to threaten BA cabin crews’ futures and in turn, as importantly the welfare of you, the passengers on the aircraft.
Willie Walsh wants to do to BA what he did at Aer Lingus, which was to slash a third of its workforce and re-positioning it as a low-cost carrier. With respect to Aer Lingus BA is nowhere near Aer Lingus’s position prior to Mr Walsh’s involvement. BA make a profit year in year out and have only undergone a blip the last year due to the recession. Unfortunately Mr Walsh has seen this as his chance to turn BA into Ryan Air mark II. The recent Panorama programme exposed how Michael O’Leary works and how he treats his employees who don’t belong to trade unions and how his passengers are inconvienced when things go wrong. Mr Walsh would like to be in Michael O’Leary’s shoes but that means getting rid of the Unions and the best place to start is with BASSA - the main cabin crew union. Once that has been achieved (and the imposition of one or two off an aircraft is just a start) the rest will follow as sure as night follows day. There is already talk of introducing a “new fleet” with crew on vastly inferior terms and conditions and once this “trojan horse” has been wheeled into position the career prospects of BA’s 15000 cabin crew community will be under severe threat. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO TAKE ACTION NOW! Mr Walsh is not a man to reason with. He once said “a reasonable man gets nowhere with negotiation”. Perhaps you can begin to see what we are up against?
What sort of people are BA cabin crew?
Well one thing they are definitely not is political “militants”. They are mums and dads, wives and husbands, brothers and sisters with parents, children, boyfriends and girlfriends to care for and to look after. They come in every shape, size and colour, they come from various different religious, cultural and political backgrounds and they are aged between 20 and 65. Diverse for sure, but they have one thing in common - they are there in a BA uniform because they want to care and look out for you onboard an aircraft both in terms of safety and health. Sounds corny we know but it is true. If your Mum or Dad or daughter or son suddenly became seriously ill on an aircraft would you just want any old body tackling the emergency or would you want someone who has experience, know how and compassion?
BA has become the proud airline it has on the back of that compassion. The care that comforts the bewildered or frightened, the care that nurses anything from minor headaches to full-blown heart attacks. The care to the old and very young travelling alone. BA cabin crew take great pride in their reputation, which has not developed overnight. It has grown since the far off days of B.O.A.C and B.E.A when those airlines sold themselves on the back of employing the best cabin crew in the world. Those crew have not changed (indeed some of our older members were around in those days) but the philosophy of the people now in charge of our once great airline has. Care and compassion don’t count for much in their cost driven business world. Nowadays they want as many backsides on seats and offer them just enough to get by - with meal quality dwindling and poorly maintained aircraft cabins. Ground staff throughout the world have been laid off, everything has been cut back in the name of greater profits. The very core brand value that used to make BA the “World’s Favourite Airline” is no longer regarded as of paramount importance. The passengers are now taken for granted and crew are becoming increasingly frustrated at the decline in standards.
Contrary to popular belief the salary for new cabin crew is very low - just little more than £11,500pa. In 1997 BA imposed a new tier of payment, which means over three quarters of the cabin crew on the aircraft really struggle to make ends meet. After 5 years a crew member could expect to be on aprox £14,000 while after 10 years service a cabin crew member is on less than £20,000 basic. The job is no longer about 5 star hotels and tanning by the pool - those days are virtually gone. Aviation has moved on with longer more frequent flights and cabin crew now work at a frenetic pace often with minimum time off. As you will know from being a passenger the state of world wide security issues has made flying around a lot more worrying and stressful which is something crew have to deal with on a 24/7 basis, whenever away from base. But, we are not complaining - the job, despite the Christmases away from home and the anniversaries and birthdays missed is an enriching one and one that brings us into contact with people, with people like you. People that we want to explain why we might have to do what we have to do to bring BA to its senses.
We have no wish to disrupt your travel plans. We do not want to cause distress at airports, especially as the holiday season approaches, but BA’s intentions leave us with little alternative. We have tried talking, we have offered to make significant savings but they are not interested. They are hell bent on removing the one obstacle that stands between them doing completely as they please. We seek your understanding of our predicament.
We are genuinely very sorry that the general public could be caught up in this whole sad episode. We honestly believe that only the threat of industrial action will deflect BA away from their destructive vision that will leave this country without an airline it can feel secure in and proud of. There may be pain but if BA can be persuaded to alter its catastrophic path not only will cabin crew have protected their jobs and futures but the passenger experience will once again return to enjoyable levels and this country will have an airline it can be proud of. We speak from the heart.
Why are British Airways cabin crew balloting for industrial action?
BA say none of their crew will be financially worse off with the impositions of taking a crew member off the aircraft on November 16th and it will just mean everyone will have to work that little bit harder. While on the surface what BA are saying is not untrue it is the unspoken underlying plans that do much to threaten BA cabin crews’ futures and in turn, as importantly the welfare of you, the passengers on the aircraft.
Willie Walsh wants to do to BA what he did at Aer Lingus, which was to slash a third of its workforce and re-positioning it as a low-cost carrier. With respect to Aer Lingus BA is nowhere near Aer Lingus’s position prior to Mr Walsh’s involvement. BA make a profit year in year out and have only undergone a blip the last year due to the recession. Unfortunately Mr Walsh has seen this as his chance to turn BA into Ryan Air mark II. The recent Panorama programme exposed how Michael O’Leary works and how he treats his employees who don’t belong to trade unions and how his passengers are inconvienced when things go wrong. Mr Walsh would like to be in Michael O’Leary’s shoes but that means getting rid of the Unions and the best place to start is with BASSA - the main cabin crew union. Once that has been achieved (and the imposition of one or two off an aircraft is just a start) the rest will follow as sure as night follows day. There is already talk of introducing a “new fleet” with crew on vastly inferior terms and conditions and once this “trojan horse” has been wheeled into position the career prospects of BA’s 15000 cabin crew community will be under severe threat. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO TAKE ACTION NOW! Mr Walsh is not a man to reason with. He once said “a reasonable man gets nowhere with negotiation”. Perhaps you can begin to see what we are up against?
What sort of people are BA cabin crew?
Well one thing they are definitely not is political “militants”. They are mums and dads, wives and husbands, brothers and sisters with parents, children, boyfriends and girlfriends to care for and to look after. They come in every shape, size and colour, they come from various different religious, cultural and political backgrounds and they are aged between 20 and 65. Diverse for sure, but they have one thing in common - they are there in a BA uniform because they want to care and look out for you onboard an aircraft both in terms of safety and health. Sounds corny we know but it is true. If your Mum or Dad or daughter or son suddenly became seriously ill on an aircraft would you just want any old body tackling the emergency or would you want someone who has experience, know how and compassion?
BA has become the proud airline it has on the back of that compassion. The care that comforts the bewildered or frightened, the care that nurses anything from minor headaches to full-blown heart attacks. The care to the old and very young travelling alone. BA cabin crew take great pride in their reputation, which has not developed overnight. It has grown since the far off days of B.O.A.C and B.E.A when those airlines sold themselves on the back of employing the best cabin crew in the world. Those crew have not changed (indeed some of our older members were around in those days) but the philosophy of the people now in charge of our once great airline has. Care and compassion don’t count for much in their cost driven business world. Nowadays they want as many backsides on seats and offer them just enough to get by - with meal quality dwindling and poorly maintained aircraft cabins. Ground staff throughout the world have been laid off, everything has been cut back in the name of greater profits. The very core brand value that used to make BA the “World’s Favourite Airline” is no longer regarded as of paramount importance. The passengers are now taken for granted and crew are becoming increasingly frustrated at the decline in standards.
Contrary to popular belief the salary for new cabin crew is very low - just little more than £11,500pa. In 1997 BA imposed a new tier of payment, which means over three quarters of the cabin crew on the aircraft really struggle to make ends meet. After 5 years a crew member could expect to be on aprox £14,000 while after 10 years service a cabin crew member is on less than £20,000 basic. The job is no longer about 5 star hotels and tanning by the pool - those days are virtually gone. Aviation has moved on with longer more frequent flights and cabin crew now work at a frenetic pace often with minimum time off. As you will know from being a passenger the state of world wide security issues has made flying around a lot more worrying and stressful which is something crew have to deal with on a 24/7 basis, whenever away from base. But, we are not complaining - the job, despite the Christmases away from home and the anniversaries and birthdays missed is an enriching one and one that brings us into contact with people, with people like you. People that we want to explain why we might have to do what we have to do to bring BA to its senses.
We have no wish to disrupt your travel plans. We do not want to cause distress at airports, especially as the holiday season approaches, but BA’s intentions leave us with little alternative. We have tried talking, we have offered to make significant savings but they are not interested. They are hell bent on removing the one obstacle that stands between them doing completely as they please. We seek your understanding of our predicament.
We are genuinely very sorry that the general public could be caught up in this whole sad episode. We honestly believe that only the threat of industrial action will deflect BA away from their destructive vision that will leave this country without an airline it can feel secure in and proud of. There may be pain but if BA can be persuaded to alter its catastrophic path not only will cabin crew have protected their jobs and futures but the passenger experience will once again return to enjoyable levels and this country will have an airline it can be proud of. We speak from the heart.
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To Bealine
Let's see Bealine, they're trying to screw you over, they have nasty people in the corridors of power, so all that's left to say is why don't you quit? If it sounds like it's going to be a rubbish job that's underpaid, I'd go and find another one. Ohhh, can't find such easy money anywhere else? Welcome to the real world.
Ironically I'm reading today about BA's negotiations with check in crew, and the same poorly educated Mr. Turner has been asked to provide the soundbites as he did for the cabin crew. Here's a gem:
'"It beggars belief that the airline would want to cause conflict with workers who are so customer-focused and proud of their jobs that it is just unacceptable," Mr Turner said.'
BA check-in staff customer focused and proud of their jobs? Ignoring his laughable grammar, tell that to the miserable sods I've had to deal with the last few times I've had to fly BA out of Heathrow. Another reason to ditch the airline even if it does get from A to B, the primary purpose of travelling.
I would have thought less passengers = less staff required =some people have to go. This will have been exacerbated by the availability of online check-in. Again, opportunities for a sensible union to discuss VR and part time. Will it happen? Who knows, it's not BASSA this time, perhaps common sense will prevail.
One thing that strikes me on the remuneration issue is that if you even out the payments so that they aren't dependent on the trips, then wouldn't it stop the favoured few grabbing the more lucrative ones? Or are there other benefits in the same favoured few grabbing these juicy trips at the expense of their less-experienced colleagues?
Ironically I'm reading today about BA's negotiations with check in crew, and the same poorly educated Mr. Turner has been asked to provide the soundbites as he did for the cabin crew. Here's a gem:
'"It beggars belief that the airline would want to cause conflict with workers who are so customer-focused and proud of their jobs that it is just unacceptable," Mr Turner said.'
BA check-in staff customer focused and proud of their jobs? Ignoring his laughable grammar, tell that to the miserable sods I've had to deal with the last few times I've had to fly BA out of Heathrow. Another reason to ditch the airline even if it does get from A to B, the primary purpose of travelling.
I would have thought less passengers = less staff required =some people have to go. This will have been exacerbated by the availability of online check-in. Again, opportunities for a sensible union to discuss VR and part time. Will it happen? Who knows, it's not BASSA this time, perhaps common sense will prevail.
One thing that strikes me on the remuneration issue is that if you even out the payments so that they aren't dependent on the trips, then wouldn't it stop the favoured few grabbing the more lucrative ones? Or are there other benefits in the same favoured few grabbing these juicy trips at the expense of their less-experienced colleagues?
ABBA
I am an infrequent long haul flyer. Up to now I have had good experiences with BA. How many bad experiences will it take for BA to lose my custom for ever? Just one. I paid extra for a planned holiday in January in order to fly BA rather than one of several competitors. You can imagine my thoughts. If BA cabin crew really think they can do better elsewhere, perhaps they should resign en masse.
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I've never heard of a £400 million loss described as a blip before - must remember to try that one at the bank.
On a serious note my thoughts with ALL BA employees at the moment. The threat of Industrial Action within the workforce is always stressful especially in the current financial climate.
I hope for a swift resolution.
On a serious note my thoughts with ALL BA employees at the moment. The threat of Industrial Action within the workforce is always stressful especially in the current financial climate.
I hope for a swift resolution.
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Let's see Bealine, they're trying to screw you over, they have nasty people in the corridors of power, so all that's left to say is why don't you quit? If it sounds like it's going to be a rubbish job that's underpaid, I'd go and find another one. Ohhh, can't find such easy money anywhere else? Welcome to the real world.
Like so many other idiots on the Pprune board, you have absolutely no concept of reality and you are just attempting to stir up trouble without offering one iota of anything constructive.
Let's just say that I am earning exactly 27% of my salary in 1993 before I decided to go into this sort of job. As a professional qualified International Transport Manager, I would not (except for this pesky recession) have too much trouble getting a suitable position paying between 2 and 3 times my BA salary - hell, even if I bit the bullet and drove a bus I would pick up double my earnings.
The job isn't easy - but it just happens to be one that I *used to) love. I chose BA as a career, unlike the managers who come for a few years and then bu66er off, leaving chaos in their wake!
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I would hazard a guess that if the contents of the document I saw are right, and if WW can be trusted to keep his word and if the management are prepared to promise not to come back to the negotiating table to try to take more away at a later date, a majority vote for strike action is unlikely.
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I decided to go into this sort of job. As a professional qualified International Transport Manager, I would not (except for this pesky recession) have too much trouble getting a suitable position paying between 2 and 3 times my BA salary - hell, even if I bit the bullet and drove a bus I would pick up double my earnings.
The job isn't easy - but it just happens to be one that I *used to) love. I chose BA as a career, unlike the managers who come for a few years and then bu66er off, leaving chaos in their wake!
The job isn't easy - but it just happens to be one that I *used to) love. I chose BA as a career, unlike the managers who come for a few years and then bu66er off, leaving chaos in their wake!
Many years later me and all my collegues do 750 hours a year (shorthaul), fixed links, get an hourly rate and as from Oct 1st just lost about £5000 per year gross.
But guess what, I still love my job, still love the company and accept that the world has changed and what we got away with before was not sustainable.
The day I hate BA and my job I will leave and find another job. I don't think that will ever happen.
Stop acting so spoilt.
As an aside I'm off work at the moment looking after my kids whilst my wife is in hospital, her 3rd operation in 3 years.
On every occasion BA have been outstanding, leave gets moved, dependants leave granted, removed from nightstops etc etc, this occurs for CC and pilots.
Just flown with a Purser who was flown free from India to attend her husbands 25 year long service presentation.
Stop prattling on because you're not allowed to publically slag off BA on facebook and join the real world. It will still be the best airline in Britain to work for.
Rant over.
Last edited by plodding along; 28th Oct 2009 at 15:02.
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hell, even if I bit the bullet and drove a bus I would pick up double my earnings.
I do know that the newest crew on an £11950 basic and about £1500-£2000 per month variable take home typically between £1300 and £1800 per month.
Do bus drivers really earn double that? i.e a take home of £2600-£3600 per month NET. Or are we talking Gatwick crew here?
Edited to say ignore the above because BEELINE is ground staff, so the comments were irrelevant to this cabin crew thread.
Last edited by plodding along; 28th Oct 2009 at 15:58.
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Driving through London recently, behind a slow moving bus which had an advert for drivers possibly earning up to UKL550 pw with overtime - roughly 28600pa maximum - I presume that figure is pre tax, but if after tax then it must be something like 35k. However that figure must include overtime each week and what about hols??
Comparisons anybody, or even comments.
Comparisons anybody, or even comments.
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Stop acting so spoilt.
On the other hand, I earn less than £20,000 per annum - together with the wife, who also works in Customer Service, our joint income of £36,000 is some £10,000 less than economists say the cost of living is for a family in the South-East. Having done our own calculations last night, and we're not extravagant, (apart from having a daughter at university to keep), we are left with the princely sume of £62 "disposable" income at the end of each month.
Let me see, us Ground Staff have not had a proper pay rise (one that covers theRPI increases) since before 2001, and now we have almost zero overtime to make up any shortfall. There is the prospect of losing, firstly £60 a month in 6 months' time, and then £120 a month in 12 months' time when we lose our Terminal 1 pay.
Even with the planned cuts, (which were agreed as part of the T5 agreement), we are going to sink so getting out and working elsewhere is a very real possibility once this stupidity caused by the bankers is over!
Wobbler - I guess that, 9 months ago, BASSA was speaking for the majority of cabin crew. The document I saw was less than a month old and was very much watered down from the original draconian cutbacks on the management "shopping list"! I imagine, once the document's contents are known, the vote will be split. Of course, there will be malcontents who won't want to budge an inch, but there will be many who will want to make the most of it and go forward into the sunset.
As far as my own colleagues among the Ground Staff are concerned, we are close to agreement - if only the management would turn up for meetings and would agree that, once the line has been signed upon by both parties, there will be no returning to the negotiating table for a fixed period of time.
Threatening our moderate union reps with disciplinaries is not, however, exactly paving the way forward into the future, is it?
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As the union can only ballot it's members for industrial action, and as only union members cam legally strike then leaving the union is obviously the answer to those who don't agree with thier actions.
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BEELINE..... huge apology, I realise now you are ground staff.
You may well earn half that of a bus driver and not be well treated by your direct management. Your cuts and negotiations with the company is a whole different thread.
This thread is about CABIN CREW, the fact that some earn huge amounts of money with very poor productivity and very little operational flexability.
I would have thought it would rile ground staff as much as it riles us. If you are happy to let BASSA/ Unite destroy this company to allow CC to continue their inefficient ways then fine.
My point was that although pilots and cabin crew have different jobs the basic idea is the same: to crew an aircraft.
In shorthaul for example the aircraft has the legal minimum of 2 pilots who fly about 40 sectors per month or 750 flying hours per year and earn a benchmarked market comparable wage.
On the day flexibility is up to CAA legal limits.
This is why we have "escaped relatively unscathed", because we are efficient already.
Cabin crew compliments are way over legal minimums, they fly half to two thirds the number of sectors/flying hours and work to union agreed industrial hours during disruption.
This puts them on average double the cost of other competitors.
The whole point is why should we all carry the can with pay cuts and further productivity changes when they wont?
They have to give more now because they carry more fat.
BASSA won't agree to ANY changes, they want to remain untouched and will strike to ensure this.
Nothing we say or do here will stop them but don't support them without knowning all the facts.
You may well earn half that of a bus driver and not be well treated by your direct management. Your cuts and negotiations with the company is a whole different thread.
This thread is about CABIN CREW, the fact that some earn huge amounts of money with very poor productivity and very little operational flexability.
I would have thought it would rile ground staff as much as it riles us. If you are happy to let BASSA/ Unite destroy this company to allow CC to continue their inefficient ways then fine.
My point was that although pilots and cabin crew have different jobs the basic idea is the same: to crew an aircraft.
In shorthaul for example the aircraft has the legal minimum of 2 pilots who fly about 40 sectors per month or 750 flying hours per year and earn a benchmarked market comparable wage.
On the day flexibility is up to CAA legal limits.
This is why we have "escaped relatively unscathed", because we are efficient already.
Cabin crew compliments are way over legal minimums, they fly half to two thirds the number of sectors/flying hours and work to union agreed industrial hours during disruption.
This puts them on average double the cost of other competitors.
The whole point is why should we all carry the can with pay cuts and further productivity changes when they wont?
They have to give more now because they carry more fat.
BASSA won't agree to ANY changes, they want to remain untouched and will strike to ensure this.
Nothing we say or do here will stop them but don't support them without knowning all the facts.
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So let me make sure I've got this right. What you are saying, courtney, is that those that don't want IA should leave the union, thereby giving them no say in the matter and paving the way for those that are desperate for a strike. Nice try! 
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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You and your pilot community have come out of the negotiations relatively unscathed...
How many times do we have to tell you?
