British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Surrey (actually)
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I never cease to be amazed by the illiterate, ignorant, rabble-rousing, emotive communications that BASSA put out to their members. You would think I would be used to it now, having been in BA over ten years.
BASSA are so very selective in every story they tell. For example, they feebly try to claim that the customer will suffer, with these looming cuts, as if they were concerned (and how will the customer fare if there is a strike - seeming as the customer comes first, LOL). They weren't so concerned in the Winter, when their ridiculous agreements stranded passengers (and many of their members, who would have rather gone home) at airports all over the UK, because crew were unable to operate another sector after diverting due to the snow. In any case, referring to customer service, how come LGW surveys show the same level of customer satisfaction as LHR ones, even though the crew there are paid less, work harder, and don't have ridiculous union rules that hamstring the company?
BASSA also seem to feel qualified to instruct Willie Walsh on how to run the company. Why is that? Whilst I am all for union representation, particularly in large companies, I fail to see how running the company is BASSA's remit (thank God!). They would be better served looking after their members' interests, but sadly have little practice at this, their negotiating technique being akin to that of a 2 year old child. That is, either sticking their fingers in their ears, screaming, "NO" or sulking.
Another of BASSA's little hobby horses is pilot pay, and the constant comparison. Why? I compare my pay to that of other pilots in the World. I am, generally happy with my package at BA, but it is not the be all and end all. If I tried hard enough, I expect I could get a better paid pilot job elsewhere. Pilots leave Virgin to join BA and vice versa, not to mention other airlines. For BASSA to claim that their offer to BA is "a carbon copy" of the pilots is complete tosh. How could it be? Pilots in BA have a totally different salary structure, allowance structure, and rostering system. Our deal includes elements of all three of these things, so there simply is no way BASSA can mirror our deal, even if BA wanted them to. I wonder if BASSA have ever compared their agreements to cabin crew in other airlines around the World. (Cue: stick fingers in ears, and shout "NO!")
I do feel for the majority of BA crew. I've only met a few unpleasant battle axes in my time; most are very pleasant, and good at their jobs. Sadly, BASSA just do not represent them. If they'd just done a little work, never mind boxing clever, they could have minimised the impact that the upcoming storm is going to have on their members. They could have traded a lot of inflexible working arrangements away, that would have saved BA money, and probably improved the lives of the crew (e.g. snow disruption). But no. They've done sod all. 3 hrs of negotiations with BA in 3 weeks. And at the last minute, they simply tried to cobble together the best bits of everyone else's agreements, without doing any homework. Pathetic. Who votes these monkeys in?
Willie Walsh will not lose this one. He can't afford to, otherwise, BA will not get the financing it needs, and it will go bust anyway. It may well go bust due a threatened strike. Obviously, there won't actually be a strike, as the CC bottled the last one, even though they had 97% in favour, and got nothing they asked for. I doubt too many have the stomach for strike now, in the current climate (even though BASSA, bless them, claim the recession has been made up by Willie Walsh).
Well, I hope we don't go bust, as I rather like my job with BA. Hopefully, if it did happen, I could find some kind of piloting job somewhere in the World, that at least paid the bills. I wonder if the same could be said of the loony element of BA cabin crew?
BASSA are so very selective in every story they tell. For example, they feebly try to claim that the customer will suffer, with these looming cuts, as if they were concerned (and how will the customer fare if there is a strike - seeming as the customer comes first, LOL). They weren't so concerned in the Winter, when their ridiculous agreements stranded passengers (and many of their members, who would have rather gone home) at airports all over the UK, because crew were unable to operate another sector after diverting due to the snow. In any case, referring to customer service, how come LGW surveys show the same level of customer satisfaction as LHR ones, even though the crew there are paid less, work harder, and don't have ridiculous union rules that hamstring the company?
BASSA also seem to feel qualified to instruct Willie Walsh on how to run the company. Why is that? Whilst I am all for union representation, particularly in large companies, I fail to see how running the company is BASSA's remit (thank God!). They would be better served looking after their members' interests, but sadly have little practice at this, their negotiating technique being akin to that of a 2 year old child. That is, either sticking their fingers in their ears, screaming, "NO" or sulking.
Another of BASSA's little hobby horses is pilot pay, and the constant comparison. Why? I compare my pay to that of other pilots in the World. I am, generally happy with my package at BA, but it is not the be all and end all. If I tried hard enough, I expect I could get a better paid pilot job elsewhere. Pilots leave Virgin to join BA and vice versa, not to mention other airlines. For BASSA to claim that their offer to BA is "a carbon copy" of the pilots is complete tosh. How could it be? Pilots in BA have a totally different salary structure, allowance structure, and rostering system. Our deal includes elements of all three of these things, so there simply is no way BASSA can mirror our deal, even if BA wanted them to. I wonder if BASSA have ever compared their agreements to cabin crew in other airlines around the World. (Cue: stick fingers in ears, and shout "NO!")
I do feel for the majority of BA crew. I've only met a few unpleasant battle axes in my time; most are very pleasant, and good at their jobs. Sadly, BASSA just do not represent them. If they'd just done a little work, never mind boxing clever, they could have minimised the impact that the upcoming storm is going to have on their members. They could have traded a lot of inflexible working arrangements away, that would have saved BA money, and probably improved the lives of the crew (e.g. snow disruption). But no. They've done sod all. 3 hrs of negotiations with BA in 3 weeks. And at the last minute, they simply tried to cobble together the best bits of everyone else's agreements, without doing any homework. Pathetic. Who votes these monkeys in?
Willie Walsh will not lose this one. He can't afford to, otherwise, BA will not get the financing it needs, and it will go bust anyway. It may well go bust due a threatened strike. Obviously, there won't actually be a strike, as the CC bottled the last one, even though they had 97% in favour, and got nothing they asked for. I doubt too many have the stomach for strike now, in the current climate (even though BASSA, bless them, claim the recession has been made up by Willie Walsh).
Well, I hope we don't go bust, as I rather like my job with BA. Hopefully, if it did happen, I could find some kind of piloting job somewhere in the World, that at least paid the bills. I wonder if the same could be said of the loony element of BA cabin crew?
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ask OPS!
Posts: 1,078
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dns,
I feel for your financial situation but, to be honest, we are all in a similar boat. Irrespective of whether you work behind or in front of the cockpit door you always tend to live to your means.
I also have commitments and a perfectly average lifestyle. I too can't afford even a 2.61% paycut or, perhaps more importantly, a 20% cut in my flying allowances. My car is now 14 years old, worth less than £100 and will have to do me until it becomes too expensive to fix. I will find the savings I need to give and get through as best I can. My social life I could best describe as modest!
Unfortunately though I also can't afford to lose my job entirely. It matters not what the leadership team have or haven't done in the past, the current situation is a threat to any major player in the airline business and it is now a case of who bows out first. I have seen the T's & C's of the trans Atlantic Barons be cut and carved and shaped into the format we have today well before I could ever benefit from them. I have had a pay cut where others have had a pay rise to stabilise our structure and make it fit for purpose by the amalgamation of allowances into an hourly rate. Ironically the hourly rate that is about to be cut. These have been, at the time, necessary and appropriate thus leading to flight crew, as a workforce, requiring to give up proportionally less this time around. We really haven't got that much left!
Things change but BASSA seems to be unable to accept this. By keeping the CC T's & C's at a high rate instead of allowing a gradual change to incorporate market rates and changing circumstances, they have made a rod for their own backs and you, as members, are now paying the price.
The measures from BA are harsh. Guaranteed there are 'headline grabbers' in there that will be thrown out by the company to allow BASSA to crow that it has achieved a 'victory' but the majority of them will, probably, go through and be written to contract.
BASSA has done well until now keeping the old contracts, unfortunately it has burnt all its bridges behind it and finds itself somewhat marooned on an island with the BA sharks circling.
As to the personal aspect of nights away and not having time for a pint with your mates? Sorry, no sympathy here. This job, as with most, is a personal choice. If the social aspects are getting you so down then leave and get another job. You pays yer money and takes yer choice.
It's never a dull summer in BA.
I feel for your financial situation but, to be honest, we are all in a similar boat. Irrespective of whether you work behind or in front of the cockpit door you always tend to live to your means.
I also have commitments and a perfectly average lifestyle. I too can't afford even a 2.61% paycut or, perhaps more importantly, a 20% cut in my flying allowances. My car is now 14 years old, worth less than £100 and will have to do me until it becomes too expensive to fix. I will find the savings I need to give and get through as best I can. My social life I could best describe as modest!
Unfortunately though I also can't afford to lose my job entirely. It matters not what the leadership team have or haven't done in the past, the current situation is a threat to any major player in the airline business and it is now a case of who bows out first. I have seen the T's & C's of the trans Atlantic Barons be cut and carved and shaped into the format we have today well before I could ever benefit from them. I have had a pay cut where others have had a pay rise to stabilise our structure and make it fit for purpose by the amalgamation of allowances into an hourly rate. Ironically the hourly rate that is about to be cut. These have been, at the time, necessary and appropriate thus leading to flight crew, as a workforce, requiring to give up proportionally less this time around. We really haven't got that much left!
Things change but BASSA seems to be unable to accept this. By keeping the CC T's & C's at a high rate instead of allowing a gradual change to incorporate market rates and changing circumstances, they have made a rod for their own backs and you, as members, are now paying the price.
The measures from BA are harsh. Guaranteed there are 'headline grabbers' in there that will be thrown out by the company to allow BASSA to crow that it has achieved a 'victory' but the majority of them will, probably, go through and be written to contract.
BASSA has done well until now keeping the old contracts, unfortunately it has burnt all its bridges behind it and finds itself somewhat marooned on an island with the BA sharks circling.
As to the personal aspect of nights away and not having time for a pint with your mates? Sorry, no sympathy here. This job, as with most, is a personal choice. If the social aspects are getting you so down then leave and get another job. You pays yer money and takes yer choice.
It's never a dull summer in BA.
I spend my whole life knackered as it is (despite being in my 20s!). I can only imagine what Hong Kong and Singapore nightstops would do to my body. I give up huge amounts of time to BA and think I should be compensated accordingly. The nice hotels and occasional desirable locations don't make up for the fact that I'm not in my own home, can't meet my mates for a pint, can't phone anyone without paying a fortune, can't watch my own TV etc, or do any of the things that 9-5 workers take for granted. I can't even go to a mate's wedding or a concert unless I know about it 9 months in advance and bid for leave!
You're clearly in the wrong job. Why don't you move on and try something which suits your lifestyle better?
I am told that I have to give up even more to keep my employer running, yet they're splashing out a fortune on business class airlines to the USA (despite the recent failings of just about every similar carrier!)
W2P 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South East
Age: 42
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wobble2plank, I quite agree with most of what you say, however, whilst I did make my own choice when I joined BA, I did so with agreements and contracts in place which assured me that I'd be compensated for everything I had to give up. BA are now trying to take away that compensation...
Why should I do a 24/7/365 job for 9-5, Monday to Friday money?
Andy S, heard of Openskies? Does flying crew suit anyone's lifestyle? Would anyone do it unless they were compensated for the loss of their social life? I'm talking about pilots as well as cabin crew here...
Why should I do a 24/7/365 job for 9-5, Monday to Friday money?
Andy S, heard of Openskies? Does flying crew suit anyone's lifestyle? Would anyone do it unless they were compensated for the loss of their social life? I'm talking about pilots as well as cabin crew here...
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 35,000 ft
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DNS you quote:
Have you actually read for yourself both the BA and the UNITE proposals (and I don't mean just listening to the BASSA take on them)?
BA are not asking you to give up ANY money. They are asking us to work harder - CSDs on a trolley, less crew onboard, less time downroute, less time off at base (EF).
It is BASSA who have offered
A. A payfreeze for 2 years
B. A 2.61% pay cut.
You are therefore barking up the wrong tree. If you won't be able to afford your modest lifestyle, then it's BASSA you need to be telling, not BA because BASSA are the ones literally giving it away.
Perhaps, like most, you have failed to recognise this detail.
I do not live a life of luxury, why should I give any of my money up? If BA impose the changes they want, I won't be able to afford even my modest home and lifestyle.
BA are not asking you to give up ANY money. They are asking us to work harder - CSDs on a trolley, less crew onboard, less time downroute, less time off at base (EF).
It is BASSA who have offered
A. A payfreeze for 2 years
B. A 2.61% pay cut.
You are therefore barking up the wrong tree. If you won't be able to afford your modest lifestyle, then it's BASSA you need to be telling, not BA because BASSA are the ones literally giving it away.
Perhaps, like most, you have failed to recognise this detail.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: glos
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why should I give up my terms and conditions? I am longhaul crew, I spend my whole life knackered as it is (despite being in my 20s!). I can only imagine what Hong Kong and Singapore nightstops would do to my body. I give up huge amounts of time to BA and think I should be compensated accordingly.
The existence you describe is identical to that of ALL longhaul cabin crew, the service you provide is identical to that provided by ALL other longhaul cabin crew and the privations you "suffer" are identical to ALL other longhaul cabin crew.
The one area that you differ is that you cost quite a bit MORE than all other longhaul cabin crew. Even the all-knowing BASSA have allowed crew on MUCH less money to provide an IDENTICAL service from LGW.
So where do you go from here? No-one is holding a gun to your head to stay at BA. You are not fighting to "save" anything as you t's and c's WILL be changed, all you can do is minimise the pain. Or should I say "could have done". That option is now closed thanks to your wonderful union.
In the meantime the dole queues are growing and the list of qualified, suitable and hungry applicants wanting your job is growing. With 10 days training they will be as qualified as you. Something to think about.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not being bitchy in this message.
Choosing a career which takes you away from your home, family and friends and makes you both knackered and not able to plan our life is something you have to take into consideration when applying for it.
Yuo won't get any sympathy whatsoever if you are using those arguments because people will simply say you are in the wrong job and you should find employment elsewhere, which is partly true. If it bothers you that much you should perhaps think of getting another job that takes you home every day and makes your life easier.
Again, not being bitchy and please don't take offense.
Choosing a career which takes you away from your home, family and friends and makes you both knackered and not able to plan our life is something you have to take into consideration when applying for it.
Yuo won't get any sympathy whatsoever if you are using those arguments because people will simply say you are in the wrong job and you should find employment elsewhere, which is partly true. If it bothers you that much you should perhaps think of getting another job that takes you home every day and makes your life easier.
Again, not being bitchy and please don't take offense.
Why should I do a 24/7/365 job for 9-5, Monday to Friday money?
Does flying crew suit anyone's lifestyle? Would anyone do it unless they were compensated for the loss of their social life?
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: on the edge
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not being bitchy in this message.
Choosing a career which takes you away from your home, family and friends and makes you both knackered and not able to plan our life is something you have to take into consideration when applying for it.
Yuo won't get any sympathy whatsoever if you are using those arguments because people will simply say you are in the wrong job and you should find employment elsewhere, which is partly true. If it bothers you that much you should perhaps think of getting another job that takes you home every day and makes your life easier.
Again, not being bitchy and please don't take offense.
Choosing a career which takes you away from your home, family and friends and makes you both knackered and not able to plan our life is something you have to take into consideration when applying for it.
Yuo won't get any sympathy whatsoever if you are using those arguments because people will simply say you are in the wrong job and you should find employment elsewhere, which is partly true. If it bothers you that much you should perhaps think of getting another job that takes you home every day and makes your life easier.
Again, not being bitchy and please don't take offense.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I need my job more than anything else to survive and I can honestly say I'm scared over BASSA's behaviour and how it might affect us. I'm also disappointed and surprised over how they could suggest a pay cut and a two year pay freeze when BA didn't even ask for this.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: around
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely its about time that the BA staff actuallly realise that they may have to make some sacrifices. If they are more then happy to take take and take, and the company goes under, then the people deserve what they get. Personally I would rather have a job!!
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Out and About
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dns
Totally get where you are coming from, but .....
Apart from the bassa offer of a pay-freeze, what money have we been asked to give-up? As the (current) BA suggestion stands, basic stays as is. The suggested new monthly pay element will be the total of last years payments shared between us all (resulting in a higher percentage of our take-home becoming more consistant). Meal Allowances will continue as is.
You are lucky to sometimes be able to put a little away at the end of the month. BA currently are unable to do that.
Being behind your union is fine, so long as you are sure that your union can gaurantee you a job and at least some kind of income in the future. Also that they will help you out if the company goes under or into such a decline that there is less and less work to do, as routes and services are cut and more aircraft grounded. Whatever happens to BA, Unite will continue as a going concern, it's Officers will remain employed.
As it stands, the bassa proposition offers very little of use to the company in terms of operational flexibility. In my view it will only lead to further problems. Personally, some of the current T&Cs are a pain anyway.
As to work/lifestyle issues. That's a purely personal one. For me it works (and that's with 30+ years of various jobs and work patterns, in various places, for various companies), for others, it doesn't. 9-5 can be total drudgery and can very often turnout to be 8-6 (or longer).
The fines/openskies/etc arguements really have been done to death and have no relevance to where we are now. They only serve as a distraction, and we cannot afford those now.
I can see I'm starting to ramble, so will leave it there.
Good luck in whatever choices you may make. We are all going to need it in abundance.
EDIT:
I'm sorry, but where does this "loss of social life" payment appear on my paycheck?
Totally get where you are coming from, but .....
Apart from the bassa offer of a pay-freeze, what money have we been asked to give-up? As the (current) BA suggestion stands, basic stays as is. The suggested new monthly pay element will be the total of last years payments shared between us all (resulting in a higher percentage of our take-home becoming more consistant). Meal Allowances will continue as is.
You are lucky to sometimes be able to put a little away at the end of the month. BA currently are unable to do that.
Being behind your union is fine, so long as you are sure that your union can gaurantee you a job and at least some kind of income in the future. Also that they will help you out if the company goes under or into such a decline that there is less and less work to do, as routes and services are cut and more aircraft grounded. Whatever happens to BA, Unite will continue as a going concern, it's Officers will remain employed.
As it stands, the bassa proposition offers very little of use to the company in terms of operational flexibility. In my view it will only lead to further problems. Personally, some of the current T&Cs are a pain anyway.
As to work/lifestyle issues. That's a purely personal one. For me it works (and that's with 30+ years of various jobs and work patterns, in various places, for various companies), for others, it doesn't. 9-5 can be total drudgery and can very often turnout to be 8-6 (or longer).
The fines/openskies/etc arguements really have been done to death and have no relevance to where we are now. They only serve as a distraction, and we cannot afford those now.
I can see I'm starting to ramble, so will leave it there.
Good luck in whatever choices you may make. We are all going to need it in abundance.
EDIT:
Would anyone do it unless they were compensated for the loss of their social life?
Last edited by TorC; 6th Jul 2009 at 20:16.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: on the edge
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many commentators said that BA had the chance of changing their business model following the aviation fall out of 9/11. The -136's and many -236's went to the desert or were sold off to other carriers and BA had an open invitation to bring in sweeping changes. The staff could see the writing on the wall and for many it was the worst trading conditions they'd seen but BA didn't grasp the nettle then and now BA are paying for this mistake.
But today, look at CWL and over at the Base now, a squadron of -436's, 777's, 767's all parked up, yes, they are rotated to give the impression of maintenance but no one is taken in by that, they are aircraft that BA cannot fill. Ryanair and EasyJet are taking new delivieries every few day/week so whats different with them. How can do they survive and expand? Their cost basis is lower.
I'm sure the 12000 CC who could not attend the meeting are reeling from what BASSA are leading everyone towards. Oblivion if they get their way.
But today, look at CWL and over at the Base now, a squadron of -436's, 777's, 767's all parked up, yes, they are rotated to give the impression of maintenance but no one is taken in by that, they are aircraft that BA cannot fill. Ryanair and EasyJet are taking new delivieries every few day/week so whats different with them. How can do they survive and expand? Their cost basis is lower.
I'm sure the 12000 CC who could not attend the meeting are reeling from what BASSA are leading everyone towards. Oblivion if they get their way.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 35,000 ft
Posts: 468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nuigini
I need my job more than anything else to survive and I can honestly say I'm scared over BASSA's behaviour and how it might affect us. I'm also disappointed and surprised over how they could suggest a pay cut and a two year pay freeze when BA didn't even ask for this.
Are we the only crew that feel like this??Like DNS as shown earlier, many crew haven't even taken the time to read and understand each proposal. They are simply spouting the BASSA rhetoric and have not one jot of understanding of what they are signing away.
However, I do feel that Mr W is playing a very shrewd game here. He is very cleverly getting BASSA to offer what he wants. Let's face it he has dropped New Fleet, dropped MBTs, already said that Fixed Monthly Duty Payment doesn't have to happen, without even batting an eyelid. My guess is, that like New Fleet, there's a few red herrings lurking in that list. We've just got to find them and weedle them out.
My starter for ten is that BA want:
CSDs to work onboard
Crew complement reduced - maybe not as much as currently on the list
EF Fixed Links
Some downroute nightstops
New Contract Crew
ORP
And now he has the added bonus of a paycut and a payfreeze. Cheers BASSA.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 60
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even with allowances on top..............
Every time I take 200 pounds out from the cash machine it seems to evaporate in about an hour, how do you build a life on 782 pounds a month after tax and NI payments deducted. How could you be bothered to worry too much about your employer or the customers ?
Every time I take 200 pounds out from the cash machine it seems to evaporate in about an hour, how do you build a life on 782 pounds a month after tax and NI payments deducted. How could you be bothered to worry too much about your employer or the customers ?