British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[Freddielaker]

The QC that BASSA (Unite) that has employed (previously used by BALPA in the Open Skies dispute) appears to be on a losing streak at the moment.

Probably because the arguments he was required to propose were untenable. The Post Office needs to modernise, BA needs to cut costs - end of

[Weather Map]

The union has lost the plot and sadly the membership is not being represented fairly .If you look at the reps they are where they want to be CSD's and PSR's.

What about the 9000 crew on half the salary on the new type of contract.If i was in their camp i'd be looking after number one at this stage in the game .After all the union didn't exactly look after their interests or the crew at LGW in days gone by that IS why they have this mess on their hands now.WW knows this he will back the union into a corner .They won't get public support lets be honest alot of people would jump at their job flying round the world staying in great hotels .What exactly do they have to complain about .They have it easy compared to some.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Hi folks,

Ive just seen the disturbing news that BA has lost £111m in Q2 (traditionaly the most lucrative time of the year for the company) adding to the huge losses from Q1.

I've read a few pages of this and seen numerous news reporters give a brief summary of whats going on but despite all this and even having a number of family and friends that are CC with BA; I have no real idea about what this argument is about. My real concern is that, like the Royal Mail issue, the general public are in the same boat and every day that the threat of stikes loom and massive massive losses are reported all over the news, customer confidence in the business is slowly but surely being torn apart. Royal Mail will suffer for years to come after this years wave of industrial action through the alienation of its very important business customers. If BA and the unions don't get this sorted quickly you can forget the long term damage because there won't be a BA and all this talk of contracts being breached will be irrelavant....no more BA, no more crew.

The simple fact is that the company is in deep deep and very smelly s**t and it can't carry on making these sorts of losses. My brother is CC and I see how hard he works so I do realise how valuable you guys/girls are. Honeslty! But please please realise that if the company has to do radical and unpopular things at times like this just to survive, let alone return to profitability! And before the militant unionists among you start taking pot shots at my comments...I've recently qualified as a pilot with the £70k's worth of debt that goes along with it and no hope of a flight crew position for the next 18months. So spare a thought for others in the industry that are worse off than you. And as a side note, I'm not Willy Walsh's biggest fan either. Perhaps he should do something about his £60k a month salary before asking you guys to take hits on your t's and c's.....I'm not a company man nor a union member. I'm just Jo public sat on the fence watching the arguing continue and thinking....maybe I'd better book with another airline this year because BA maybe all out on strike.

Just a thought.

Cheers

2W2R

[Desertia]

This is how you define a BASSA "Victory"

BASSA FAIL in their attempt to stop BA imposing. Let us be accurate about that. BASSA went to court asking for an injunction against BA imposing. They FAILED to get it.

(BA agree to discuss it in court in February; that should be ample time to prove that it's acceptable, as well as get rid of any so-called "strikers" and replace them with more realistic headcount).

Then BA announce a record loss, which possibly could have been reduced if BASSA had made the necessary concessions in the first place instead of their retarded refusal to even consider it.

And so now BA have announced ANOTHER 1,200 jobs to go. Obviously the City and shareholders are in full agreement, as the share price has risen. They obviously believe that Willie is doing a great job of not only keeping the airline going, but adapting it for a competitive future.

So come on Watersidewonker and Fume Event.

I'd absolutely dying to hear how either of you consider this a victory for possibly the most self-destructive and ignorant union ever conceived.

[7Heroes]

Too many BA employees are inward looking at the moment.These events of the last few days will soon be surplanted with the requirement for furthur savings and job cuts, and that will happen very soon.The airline is losing money at a unsustainable rate.A loss of £400 million last year,a loss of near to £450 million this year.10 years ago our turnover was just under £8 billion .Today it is 4.1 billion.By the time we get around to 1st Feb the onboard crew changes will be a thing of the past.There will be no trial.Events will have overtaken Bassa .They will be firefighting so many proposed changes.And I think all depts will have to accept furthur changes if BA is to survive .The price of oil is still below $100 but as all the economies eventually come out of recession (2010/20110) this will be another huge headache for BA.They will have also announced the size of the pension deficit by Feb/Mar but already there are estimates that it is in the order of £2.5 - £3.5 billion.I have only 7 years left to go in BA and for the first time in my career I sense that BA might actually not be around much longer.I want it to be around not only for me but for present and future employees as well.I hope the cabin crew can accept these changes and move on.There are bigger challeges to come for us all.

[Runway vacated]

I cannot imagine what kind of catastrophe would have to occur for BASSA to admit defeat! I can't help feeling, however, that BASSA have finally realised that this is a fight for survival - their own.

Their credibility is fatally holed below the waterline. The one thing they wanted to stop happening is going to happen, and should they win in Feb (VERY unlikely IMHO) then they simply hasten the creation of the "New Fleet" they so fear. And that will only happen after all their dirty laundry has been aired in court, and boy will BA's lawyers make sure every last piece of misinformation and sophistry is exposed.

If this is a "victory", then I wish them many more in the months to come!

[Desertia]

Pensions

From the FT:

"British Airways NAPS pension liabilities now stand at a whopping £2.66bn — more than twice the £1.17bn reported at the end of last fiscal year.".

[Nutjob]

BASSA are self-destructing. They LOST!

Aw, I really am trying to keep away from this thread but it's driving me mad. Looking at the self-congratulating drivel on the BASSA forum is making it worse. I won't post there, so here's a quick summary for those that do pop over here:

BASSA failed to inspect BA's confidential accounts.
This is one of the issues that the pro-BASSA posters always fail to address. How can a Union possibly have the slightest idea of the motivation behind and authenticity of BA's push for cost-savings if it didn't do this? Instead of acting like adults from Day 1, they refused to look and drew their own ill-informed conclusions about what BA was doing. This was a pathetic first move and, in itself, undermined everything that BASSA did subsequently. How can you form a rational argument without one of the key facts? (The only defence for this from PiB and the like - that PWC are "in BA's pockets". How convenient and yet without a shred of evidence.) BASSA showed from the start that they were never prepared to remove all bias and actually address the facts. Unforgivable!


BASSA never, ever polled crew to see what changes they found acceptable or preferred
How are they acting in ALL our best interests? Other than a "show of hands" in the most intimidating of meetings, when has BASSA ever asked us what changes we'd agree to? How can they KNOW the true feelings of their members? How do they know who resists ANY change, who resists New Fleet, who prioritises opportunities for promotion, who thinks that an hourly rate coupled with a rostering system would be seen as an overall gain for our community? They don't know, they never asked. Now they're determined to ballot on strike action after none of the consultation I describe above and after (no doubt) taking into account the "support" of the militant few - the only ones who dare post on the BASSA and Crew forums.


BASSA lost their Court Case
Dress it up however you want, but they applied for an injunction to prevent the imposition of changes on November 16th. THIS FAILED. A full court case was going to follow anyway. The injunction FAILED. BA will impose it's changes. But think about the February court case. BA can prove the business is ailing. They can prove that other departments recognised the need for changes and made them. They seem 100% certain that the changes to crewing levels etc aren't contractual. BASSA are on very sticky ground. The other point to note (BASSA forum peeps) is that LGW and other airlines work with these (and lower) crewing levels. There is simply no evidence to suggest that it's unsafe or unhealthy. In fact, there's much evidence to the contrary and the crewing levels are well in excess of the CAA "safety" minimums. Another argument that's dead in the water.


After the Worst loss in BA's history (given the seasonal timing of the loss) BASSA are still determined to ballot for strike
Public sympathy will be lacking for a start. Others are losing jobs, working harder, defaulting on mortgages and having a rough time of it everywhere you look. But as BA CC, our Union seems determined to portray us as prima-donnas who are immune to the changes affecting the rest of the world. I resent being portrayed this way and I'm sick of taking "Stick" from friends and customers for it.
I believe the strike will fail, though I'm not quite sure at which stage. Possibly when those heading for VR and PTWK, those at LGW, those of us who value our jobs and those who accept a need for change, vote NO. Possibly when these NO's are still not enough, a YES vote is carried but when the day of the strike comes around the pressure to earn money and the inevitable intimidation from BA forces many to cross the picket line.
(As an aside, how many of you think you can just not turn up on the first day of strike? BA will be sending some pretty frightening letters in the weeks and days before. They will almost certainly threaten the sack for breaking your contract and they WILL ask you to declare well in advance of the strike date, whether you intend to work. You won't be able to hide. You'll have to put YOUR money and YOUR name where BASSA's mouth is. Also, I'll just bet that none of our reps are due to be working in those first days of strike action. Just you watch )
Possibly, it will fail when BA stop it with legal action. But fail it will. All we will have achieved is to stop BA's potential passengers flying with us, pass custom to our competitors and finally, have the incurred losses attributed to US as CC. We'll have to find even more cost-savings and we'll be risking the very future of this company.
I wanted all this done a very different way but with the game as it stands, I'll be voting NO and accepting the changes. Not because I accept ALL of BA's proposals, but because my Union has left me with no realistic choice other than to accept them.

BASSA failed to attend meetings and walked out of meetings
Many of you doubt this, but I promise you it's true. Following people like this down the path of industrial action is going to end in tears. There were so many independent witnesses to this pathetic, petulant behaviour. BA will have little problem denouncing BASSA's claim to want to talk. Watch this space for when it all comes out in the wash.


Living in the past
BASSA also continues to pedal the past and the green-eyed monster approach. Again and again they note the fuel-surcharge price-fixing fines. Can any of you, WatersideWonker etc, offer any evidence that that BA didn't actually profit it from this whole episode? I.e £350m in fines but £500m in "extra income"? Might be worth a moment's thought. Yet, whilst pushing this kind of "evidence" they continuously fail to address the issue of these very real and worrying losses. Can I also add for, those who read the BF, that the share price going up or down bears little relation to how much trouble the company is in. In fact, today's rise is probably due to the evidence backing WW and his "necessary changes".
Also, one minute the pilots have screwed themselves with a sub-standard deal and the next they're in bed with the company. Am I the only one who sees the contradictions there? Irrelevant arguments anyway as BASSA had their own opportunity to embrace change and make the savings in a way that suited THEIR MEMBERS.


All very sad and leaves me genuinely worried for the future of BA if this strike ballot gathers momentum. BASSA have NOT accurately represented the diverse views of it's membership.

(Edited for spelling and stuff)

[Weather Map]

It's a case of history being repeated with the new fleet.When 767 fleet launched nearly 20 yrs back BASSA refused to represent the cabin crew on it initially.They called the fleet for everything new agreements mixed flying etc .However as the fleet grew so did promotion prospects crew from the other fleets started to move on to the 767 fleet in their droves .BASSA had no choice but to become involved in the 767 fleet .I just don't understand why the majority of cabin crew can't see BASSA for what it is of course they eventually claimed that when they became involved agreements got better what drivel they pedal.

Some comments amuse me such as thanks to our union and the reps we're behind you 100% ....the best one ...Steve Turner HERO .Will they be saying that in the next few months .Lets sit back and enjoy the show it will be worse than the last pending strike in Jan 2007 .BASSA backed down and let the crew down big time they were made to look like fools WW is fully aware of this .I'd be very worried if i were crew getting caught up in this some of these reps are just not up to the job.

[7Heroes]

Very good post Nutjob.I can only hope that there are enough moderate sensible people out there who see there is a real need for change.

[Perry-oaks]

Update On Yesterday’s High Court Ruling

UPDATE ON YESTERDAY’S HIGH COURT RULING

With yesterday’s ruling now delivered and BA’s spin machine firing off ESS messages, we thought we’d take this time to explain to you in laymans terms what it actually means, taking out the legal terms and BA’s spin.

First things first, yesterday’s decision does NOT affect the ballot in any way.

The ballot is still going ahead and, with a “yes” vote delivered at the branch meeting on 14th December 2009 at Sandown racecourse (time to be advised), we will be taking industrial action to fight this imposition before any final court ruling.

The notification to BA of "intent to ballot" has been held back for a few days because of housekeeping issues making sure that the databases are as accurate as humanely possible but we are still on schedule to get the ballot papers out to you.

One thing you must remember is, every single word uttered by us on our website is monitored by BA in the hope they can take legal recourse.
All statements have to carefully vetted by Unite’s legal dept and that takes time.
The minefields are everywhere and sometimes you must read between the lines or be patient.

The BASSA reps will not knowingly let you down - you have our word!

The injunction was never going to make or break the dispute, but if we win - and yesterday’s ruling is being regarded as a positive one by Unite’s QC - then BA will be in the real mire.

Yesterday was a good result, but like we said earlier, let’s not rely on injunctions necessarily. The ballot box was always the old fashioned way to make greedy companies come to their senses and not much has changed.

Just to clarify - crew continuing to operate normally throughout the imposition do so `without prejudice’ to their right to vote in the forth coming ballot, or to the claim we have for breach of contract.

BA have sent out a very misleading and arrogant ESS to you all last night - which indicates they do not have a clear grasp and understanding of the implications of yesterday’s proceedings. In fact the Court and BA’s legal team had no choice but to admit that the primary argument presented by Unite for the alleged of breach of contract is so strong that the secondary issues may not even need to be considered.

The full trial has been granted, fast tracked and fixed. Rest assured - if BA are not able to successfully rebut the claim - they will be facing substantial costs and be liable to pay for compensation to you all from the date of imposition.

It is our guess that BA is currently counting the cost of this turn of events - rather than toasting their team’s success, which is what they would, of course, have you all believe.

We have asked them to step back from the brink. There is still time to re-instate the proper crewing levels. We can then meet and try to find a common way through these difficult times...but judging by the tone of yesterday’s ESS this is extremely unlikely.

In which case the start of the destruction of your agreements is one week away and the ballot paper should arrive at a similar time!

[fly12345]

As you know, Unite sought a High Court injunction to prevent us from introducing the changes to complements onboard our aircraft that we announced in October. Today, the High Court judge did not grant Unite an injunction. This means the complement changes will go ahead as planned from November 16.

I am now able to go ahead, and this means we can meet the many requests for voluntary redundancy and part time working. More than 43 per cent of you chose to register for one of the voluntary options, which is made possible by our reduced crew complements. We are looking for changes that are fair and reasonable, given our urgent need to reduce costs in the face of our worst losses ever.

The High Court has held over until February 2010 further consideration on whether crew complements are contractual. It is our position that the changes for you, our current crew, involve no alteration to any part of your contract of employment. We want to minimise the impact on you, and by know I am sure will be familiar with the other elements of our proposed package of changes. Importantly, we are not proposing a pay cut and around 75 per cent of you will receive two incremental pay increases worth between two and seven per cent; one paid in 2009 and another paid in 2010.

We are urging Unite to withdraw its plans for an industrial action ballot and talk to us as we ensure that British Airways gets in the right shape to ensure long-term survival in the interests of our customers and all our colleagues.

[Weather Map]

Quote : The BASSA reps will not knowingly let you down - you have our word!


What about January 2007 need we say more unbelievable

[doishquattroserche]

biteme
"all i want is an assurance that my future is protected"
or words to that effect.I guess you mean in terms of your employment. No employer can ever give you that ,ever. Get into the real world my friend. One thing IS certain,a threat of a strike reduces foreward bookings and revenue ,which will only hasten the demise of BA .In that sense,the CEO may decide to back down to BASSA's demands but it looks like the company will fail anyway if he does,so why would he not want to fight and break our union? Give me a good reason if you can,i'm waiting for it.....

[finncapt]

"The intent to ballot .... " has been held back a few days because we don't know how to proceed with Unite advising us not to go ahead with it, is my take on the situation.

[1stClass]

As I am currently looking at this from an outsider point of view (maternity leave) I have mixed views. I can see why crew want to strike but I can see the other side of the argument. I have a house to pay for and a family to feed. The most important thing is that I have an airline to return to in order to do this. I need my job and I think the changes are not the worst that could of happened. I am wary of the new fleet because it could mean our fleet being starved of work and then not earning enough. I try to get a balanced argument by reading the other forums but I am not sure who the minority is in this case. BASSA seems to have quite an army at the moment. One thing is for sure, I want to keep my job and that may mean allowing a bit of flexibility my contract.

[come on]

All I want is a legally binding assurance that my future is protected.

Firestations around the country are being consolidated and closed down. The men and women working in this essential service don't have that assurance, none of us do, there are no assurances and very few jobs are for life.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

biteme....

Just to go back to your comment about being had over many times during your time at BA.....

Did it ever occur to you to leave if they're so bad??? Perhaps not because of the following....I heard recently that many long serving crew at LHR in particular are on significantly more money than the LGW crew due to a difference in the flight pay structure....is this true? If so then could much of this talk of contracts being protected really be people on the lucrative historical contracts not wanting to give them up to be paid a more realistic salary???

Thats a genuine question not me poking the bear with a stick by the way. Sorry to put the cat amongst the pidgeons but to be honest I can tell you that as a total outsider to BA this all smarts a bit of a company desperately trying to survive and certain parts of the union determined to stick to unrealistic and unaffordable pay structures.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will insist I am. But as said in my earlier post; this has to be sorted out quickly because BA can kiss goodbye to any hope of survival unless it is. And by BA I mean the company and all its staff.

[HiFlyer14]

All I want is a legally binding assurance that my future is protected.
BA has not offered this to me yet.

Biteme - they have. BA have offered the Fixed Monthly Travel Payment, which will secure our future against New Fleet. It is down to our Union to negotiate this effectively. Surely negotiating a Fixed Monthly Payment vs threatening strike action, taking court action and bringing this company to it's knees (which is what is happening as we speak) is the better option??

I am so furious with this mockery of a Union that I just don't know where to begin. There are many calls on here to change the Union, and although many of us would love to do that, it would be an impossible task at the moment. The best that we can do for now is VOTE NO TO STRIKE ACTION and then leave the Union. From that point, we can then consider starting a new union - believe me there are now huge underground rumblings about that lack of faith in this Union - it has to go. We must find a way to get rid of it, for all our sakes. BALPA, Pilots, Lawyers or anyone else with any suggestions it would be appreciated.

1stClass - you express the thoughts of many. If we want to have a job this time next year, we HAVE TO VOTE NO. Each and every vote counts, spread the word.

[1stClass]

HiFlyer14 how would it even be possible to start a new union? I have no idea how it could be done but it is a good idea. It would have to be one that is not militant and willing to discuss and listen. I feel saddened that many unions just want to fight and this could even happen to a new one. That said, it would be nice to have one that asks the opinions of its members rather than just a show of hands.