British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations
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I have to say that I find the whole Union injunction business about 'face saving'.
BASSA/Unite have hyped the situation up to such a point where they have realised that a ballot for strike was inevitable.
As was proven in the BALPA/Openskies case the ability to strike over proposed future earnings which cannot be proven before a court of law is difficult. If the court found in BA's favour that the strike/ballot were illegal and thus damaging to the company then BA could sue the union for loss of earnings. The sums that would be involved would destroy Unite!
BASSA/Unite apply for the injunction to prevent BA from suing thus 'dipping a toe' into the legal muddy waters. If they get their case rejected then they can come back to the membership (Tomorrow if I'm not mistaken) explain the position that the big nasty BA has foiled them in the courts and strike action is off the table.
BASSA get off the industrial action/financial hook whilst crowing that they explored every avenue. They continue to paint BA as the spawn of Willie Walsh's beelzebub love child and BA gets New Fleet.
CC have had over 10 months of pointless posturing, uncertainty and doubt for nothing.
We shall see.
BASSA/Unite have hyped the situation up to such a point where they have realised that a ballot for strike was inevitable.
As was proven in the BALPA/Openskies case the ability to strike over proposed future earnings which cannot be proven before a court of law is difficult. If the court found in BA's favour that the strike/ballot were illegal and thus damaging to the company then BA could sue the union for loss of earnings. The sums that would be involved would destroy Unite!
BASSA/Unite apply for the injunction to prevent BA from suing thus 'dipping a toe' into the legal muddy waters. If they get their case rejected then they can come back to the membership (Tomorrow if I'm not mistaken) explain the position that the big nasty BA has foiled them in the courts and strike action is off the table.
BASSA get off the industrial action/financial hook whilst crowing that they explored every avenue. They continue to paint BA as the spawn of Willie Walsh's beelzebub love child and BA gets New Fleet.
CC have had over 10 months of pointless posturing, uncertainty and doubt for nothing.
We shall see.
Tandemrotor wrote
BASSA on the other hand seem to have protected T&Cs, for an ever decreasing number of long serving cabin crew, at the expense of T&Cs for new recruits. This has been 'achieved' in spite of economic realities, and has resulted in a few now being rewarded at a level that is so utterly out of step with 'market rate' as to appear ridiculous, and indefensible! (Seems to me this is a 'naive' short term view)
To misquote George Orwell from Animal Farm:
ALL BA Cabin Crew are equal but some BA Cabin Crew are much more equal than others.
BASSA on the other hand seem to have protected T&Cs, for an ever decreasing number of long serving cabin crew, at the expense of T&Cs for new recruits. This has been 'achieved' in spite of economic realities, and has resulted in a few now being rewarded at a level that is so utterly out of step with 'market rate' as to appear ridiculous, and indefensible! (Seems to me this is a 'naive' short term view)
To misquote George Orwell from Animal Farm:
ALL BA Cabin Crew are equal but some BA Cabin Crew are much more equal than others.
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Tandemrotor ,
Yes I agree,for sure BALPA will be better placed to secure the terms and conditions of a staff group requiring longer lead-in time and training costs .Also ,the way BALPA has secured one pay list for all BA pilots is an astute move . None of that changes my point that the supply and demand argument should reduce t's and c's during a period of contraction for the industry ,for all involved. There are quite a few perfectly capable young men and women ,whose folks are able and prepared to put in 100k to get them started in aviation ,this will distort the market in an unfavourable way for flight crew . I'm not aware of a similar distortion in medicine or law,perhaps because these subjects are a damm tough grind ,even for very able students ,and the career at the end is also a long hard slog .
I do not for one moment compare the job of cabin crew to flight crew ,but comparison between medicine /law and flight crew reveals some stark differences. A newly qualified lawyer earnes less than an easyjet p2,sustainable?
However ,if ,like the RMT ,you get very well paid because the union is very strong and you have the company by the short and curlies ,that's great for you ,but recognise that that is the reason ,your seniority list distorts market forces ,good luck to you ,but there is a tendancy on this thread(not from you ,i must say) that implies that your efforts/skills alone justify your renumeration .That is part of the picture ,not the whole.
None of this changes the fact the BASSA and their members are staring into the abyss this week ,what a mess!
Yes I agree,for sure BALPA will be better placed to secure the terms and conditions of a staff group requiring longer lead-in time and training costs .Also ,the way BALPA has secured one pay list for all BA pilots is an astute move . None of that changes my point that the supply and demand argument should reduce t's and c's during a period of contraction for the industry ,for all involved. There are quite a few perfectly capable young men and women ,whose folks are able and prepared to put in 100k to get them started in aviation ,this will distort the market in an unfavourable way for flight crew . I'm not aware of a similar distortion in medicine or law,perhaps because these subjects are a damm tough grind ,even for very able students ,and the career at the end is also a long hard slog .
I do not for one moment compare the job of cabin crew to flight crew ,but comparison between medicine /law and flight crew reveals some stark differences. A newly qualified lawyer earnes less than an easyjet p2,sustainable?
However ,if ,like the RMT ,you get very well paid because the union is very strong and you have the company by the short and curlies ,that's great for you ,but recognise that that is the reason ,your seniority list distorts market forces ,good luck to you ,but there is a tendancy on this thread(not from you ,i must say) that implies that your efforts/skills alone justify your renumeration .That is part of the picture ,not the whole.
None of this changes the fact the BASSA and their members are staring into the abyss this week ,what a mess!
Last edited by doishquattroserche; 1st Nov 2009 at 11:24.
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A newly qualified lawyer earnes less than an easyjet p2,sustainable?
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what if?..........
Much being said about the possibility of BA purchasing part or all of bmi at LHR.
If this were to happen, are BASSA looking at the possibility that BA may use bmi to run future and existing BA services with reduced Ts and Cs?
If this were to happen, are BASSA looking at the possibility that BA may use bmi to run future and existing BA services with reduced Ts and Cs?
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If Bassa wins the court case and prevents BA from imposing the changes of removing one crew member off the world wide aircraft and making the CSD work the position instead, and at the same time prevents the New Fleet from being introduced everyone works exactly as they are now and for evermore.
If this happens presumably there would be no need to ballot for a strike as there would be no reason for one as there are no pay reductions being imposed.
How would BA then make the required savings unless Bassa decides how to make the savings, I suppose any changes would then be ok?
Any idea how Bassa proposed to make the savings that BA rejected?
If this happens presumably there would be no need to ballot for a strike as there would be no reason for one as there are no pay reductions being imposed.
How would BA then make the required savings unless Bassa decides how to make the savings, I suppose any changes would then be ok?
Any idea how Bassa proposed to make the savings that BA rejected?
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JL,
I don't think that if BASSA win the court case, BA can no longer impose the changes. I believe the injunction relates to whether these changes are contractual. If proven so to be, then I believe BA can still make the changes, they just have to give 90 days notice of change of contract.
I don't think that if BASSA win the court case, BA can no longer impose the changes. I believe the injunction relates to whether these changes are contractual. If proven so to be, then I believe BA can still make the changes, they just have to give 90 days notice of change of contract.
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Well assuming that BASSA do win their case and things go as you suggest, then the first thing that will go out of the window will be the VR - BA will not be able to allow those staff members to go. I guess the next thing would be BA going to court and applying changes to all CC contracts under SOSR. Compulsory redundancy of the higher paid CC would follow, the post of CSD would disappear and Cabin Managers would likely replace them - working on the proven LGW model.
This is just my take on things but don't expect a pretty outcome. If BASSA do win this battle, they will surely lose the war. BA genuinely believe they are in a fight for survival and the quarterly figures reinforce that. No change will ultimately result in BA ceasing to exist, so change is inevitable; BASSA can be part of it or sit aloof refusing to play a part wondering where their influence went.
No group of employees is in a position to sit back and think they are immune from the economic climate, and while BA's average CC costs are twice the national average, CC are always going to be in the firing line.
If ever there was a time for BASSA to stop playing petty politics it is now.
This is just my take on things but don't expect a pretty outcome. If BASSA do win this battle, they will surely lose the war. BA genuinely believe they are in a fight for survival and the quarterly figures reinforce that. No change will ultimately result in BA ceasing to exist, so change is inevitable; BASSA can be part of it or sit aloof refusing to play a part wondering where their influence went.
No group of employees is in a position to sit back and think they are immune from the economic climate, and while BA's average CC costs are twice the national average, CC are always going to be in the firing line.
If ever there was a time for BASSA to stop playing petty politics it is now.
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A c/crew couple live near me and commute. I have spoken to them on many occasions recently and they appear to think they will retain everything they have got now.
I have given up discussing the matter with them now because their attitude is "we will win and no-one will change anything" Then they start mentioning the pilots pay deal etc as a comparison.
Neither of them have been with BA much more than 5 years.
I personally cannot see where all the extra hard work they are complaining about will come from if only one crew member is being removed and the one who does not do any serving is made to do some. If you heard them complaining you would think half a dozen crew were being taken off instead of just one.
I have given up discussing the matter with them now because their attitude is "we will win and no-one will change anything" Then they start mentioning the pilots pay deal etc as a comparison.
Neither of them have been with BA much more than 5 years.
I personally cannot see where all the extra hard work they are complaining about will come from if only one crew member is being removed and the one who does not do any serving is made to do some. If you heard them complaining you would think half a dozen crew were being taken off instead of just one.
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Injunction
There are a number of posts referring to the possibility of Unite "winning their case".
Although I am no lawyer, as I understand it, Unite are seeking a temporary injunction restraining BA from bringing in their changes pending a full trial of whether these changes are contractual or not. Clearly a full trial of this complex matter will then require a great deal of time to reach a judgement. However if the court refuses to grant an injunction, in effect saying that the changes are not contractual, then Unite have a big problem. But perhaps this is exactly what Unite want since it would solve the problem of calling a strike which would then definitely be illegal.
Although I am no lawyer, as I understand it, Unite are seeking a temporary injunction restraining BA from bringing in their changes pending a full trial of whether these changes are contractual or not. Clearly a full trial of this complex matter will then require a great deal of time to reach a judgement. However if the court refuses to grant an injunction, in effect saying that the changes are not contractual, then Unite have a big problem. But perhaps this is exactly what Unite want since it would solve the problem of calling a strike which would then definitely be illegal.
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Very off-topic but to correct a point made by Carnage Matey responding to doishquattroserche:
Not a good benchmark. Those qualifying into one of the small handful of magic circle/US firms represent only the top say 1% of newly qualified lawyers. Outside of these, London City firms pay anywhere between 50-63k, and for those of us who have shunned London the very best NQs get is closer to 40k. At high street/smaller firms where I'd guess the majority of lawyers practice, typically they're somewhere between 25-35k.
(NB - Those at the very bottom of the pecking order may well be looking at CC salaries with envy, let alone Easyjet, as there have been a handful of NQ jobs advertised at just 18-20k.)
Starting salaries for newly qualified lawyers at magic circle firms are currently circa £65K. What does an Easyjet P2 earn?
(NB - Those at the very bottom of the pecking order may well be looking at CC salaries with envy, let alone Easyjet, as there have been a handful of NQ jobs advertised at just 18-20k.)
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WSW would be happy to play the long game and keep all Pay/T+Cs they have now, that sounds reasonable and fair.
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I think this has been said before.. Please don't insult Doctors or Lawyers or even nurses by trying to compare the career of Pilot with them.
Doctors train for 6 years including a degree, Lawyers train for at least 5, including a degree, nurses’ train for 3 years, with a Diploma equivalent. Vets train for 7 years, before they can legally "practice".
Pilots, in general, need 2 A levels and 62 weeks of training, to qualify to hold the licence you require to "practice" your chose profession. I know you then need to build your hours or "experience" before you can secure a reasonable paying job, but let’s keep the comparisons to comparable professions.
Oh yes and the legal minimum for CC training is 3 weeks and no A levels.
On another note, I wonder how the Kempton Park soiree is going to go today.. Can someone please tell me the point of it, if legal action is currently ongoing? What are they going to vote for today??
Doctors train for 6 years including a degree, Lawyers train for at least 5, including a degree, nurses’ train for 3 years, with a Diploma equivalent. Vets train for 7 years, before they can legally "practice".
Pilots, in general, need 2 A levels and 62 weeks of training, to qualify to hold the licence you require to "practice" your chose profession. I know you then need to build your hours or "experience" before you can secure a reasonable paying job, but let’s keep the comparisons to comparable professions.
Oh yes and the legal minimum for CC training is 3 weeks and no A levels.
On another note, I wonder how the Kempton Park soiree is going to go today.. Can someone please tell me the point of it, if legal action is currently ongoing? What are they going to vote for today??
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I think this has been said before.. Please don't insult Doctors or Lawyers or even nurses by trying to compare the career of Pilot with them.
Doctors train for 6 years including a degree, Lawyers train for at least 5, including a degree
Pilots, in general, need 2 A levels and 62 weeks of training, to qualify to hold the licence you require to "practice" your chose profession.
I know quite a few lawyers and both they and I are quite comfortable with comparisons between our professions. We earn similar amounts, we both rate our jobs as similarly satisfying/tedious, they think I have a greater level of responsibility on a day to day basis. The prime difference in employment terms is that lawyers operate in what is essentially a closed shop industry which protects their careers, whereas pilots operate in a fairly free market which allows the race to the bottom to establish itself.
By the way, whilst we're on the subject of comparisons, an anaethetist I know told me that when he started his specialist training his professor told the assembled class that being an anaethetist was very much like being an airline pilot, and it's pilots who are presently teaching CRM to surgeons in order to improve operating theatre practice. You may find there is rather more in common between the professions than you imagine.
Now, perhaps we can get back to the cabin crew theme of the thread in time for the big meeting to kick off at 11. I'm sure a live feed will be available from the usual sources.
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The qualifications to become a pilot miss out one one vital thing - inate aptitude. Pilots have a particular set of skills that no amount of money can buy - you either have the spatial awareness and co-ordination required or you don't. That is why the air force and BA etc spend a lot of money assessing your aptitude before they will even consider training you. Anyone with a minimum level of intelligence can become a lawyer - can't speak for doctors, the same does not hold true for pilots. If we are all hosed down with cash for no reason why are there so few of us doing the job?
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'Anyone with a minimum level of intelligence can become a lawyer'
Judging by the alleged £2m BALPA lost when they allegedly got some duff legal advise over the Open Skies fiasco you could be right.
Judging by the alleged £2m BALPA lost when they allegedly got some duff legal advise over the Open Skies fiasco you could be right.
CRM in BA
Granted that arguments on message boards are by their nature unrepresentative, as a passenger I get worried by evidence that some cabin crew and flight deck crew have a measure of disrespect for each other- as shown in this thread, and some nasty remarks allegedly made by cabin crew trainers about the captain in the Heathrow 777 dual engine flameout crash. Is it worse in BA than other airlines? If so, this will certainly influence my travel plans. I would not feel safe on an airliner where relations were so bad.
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<I happen to have a number of degrees including a PhD and spent 7+ years at various Universities...
I'd hazard a guess many pilots have in excess of the minimum qualifications.
I also know that due to what I consider a collective failure of the healthcare system I've had an unnecessary extra 2 months off work this year.
One wonders why professions, held in such esteem, aren't subject to the same stringent "continual assessment" critieria pilots are?
6 monthly checks for Doctors and Lawyers I say...
You'll always find pilots defending themselves on PPrune - be strange not to....>
Waiting patiently for the outcome of aforementioned meeting...
I'd hazard a guess many pilots have in excess of the minimum qualifications.
I also know that due to what I consider a collective failure of the healthcare system I've had an unnecessary extra 2 months off work this year.
One wonders why professions, held in such esteem, aren't subject to the same stringent "continual assessment" critieria pilots are?
6 monthly checks for Doctors and Lawyers I say...
You'll always find pilots defending themselves on PPrune - be strange not to....>
Waiting patiently for the outcome of aforementioned meeting...