British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[plodding along]

Don't have exact figures but the post office strike ballot was a majority of about 70%, yet only about 40% of the workforce voted, so really less than 30% voted yes but got a strike through, hence the huge numbers that still turned up for work. (Someone please find out the real numbers)

The above poster is correct, if everyone leaves the union and doesn't get a vote then a strike could still get approval by the small minority left in.

Not voting is a waste, you need a "NO" vote to make a difference.

P.S. thanks Human Factor, I think we need a bigger headbanging wall smilie! Could someone design a full page one?

[nuigini]

Are they serious about publishing that article? People don't want to read an essay! Maybe they should think about shortening it down a bit...

[plodding along]

Nope, I think they should publish that page of drivel as is.

Many of the public will be trying to run a business in this recession or maybe have just lost their business or job and will be very relieved to hear this is just a "blip".

Added to the fact that they could have their christmas travel plans ruined I'm sure they will be very sympathetic.

[TheKabaka]

This is relevant because alot of people in BA from IFCE and other departments "look over the fence" so I hope this post is allowed to stay.

The pilots have not escaped lightly. We will be losing £4000-£5000 per year each permenantly. As well as working harder for the privilege.

BASSA had a chance to negotiate, they had on offer VR + part time for those that wanted it, and a share plan. They were told if no agreement was reached the next stop was imposition. Most crew who turn up and work hard have been let down badly.

This is largely due to total lack of any facts from BASSA to allow people to make informed decisions. It's disgusting that a union rather than represent it's members lies to them and will not even invite their opinion on what changes might be acceptable to the membership.

[Jean-Lill]

That article is far too long, the average person will lose interest 20% through it and not bother to read the rest, it is the same as with long e mails, they are usually deleted before read.

Who is the article aimed at, the general public?

Any vote yes or no is better than not being able to vote at all.

[annel]

My interest is purely as a passenger, flying soon, wondering is there or is there not a strike!!!!!life has changed for us all, what was once is no longer, the seventies have gone the eighties have gone the nineties have gone, today we are in a different world, I could say one could be lucky to be in employment, because believe me there are many of us who are not,
once I earned a lot, today I would be grateful to earn what I could to keep my head above water, yes employers will take advantage of world economics, but get a life... reality is hard for us all but you know that is how it is now.....

Personally I love flying BA, they to me are the best they represent my country which of course I am proud of, whatever we are today, I don't agree with the strike issue, but then times have changed, once unions were needed and did a lot of good work, but please wake up now....
Life is not as we once knew it....and personally I am always proud to be british when I get on a BA flight!!! where ever I am in the world...its like coming home

and I don't work for BA

[fly12345]

"The allegations are completely trumped up and originate from a cabin crew representative, outside BASSA who has a long standing dislike of us.

"It is a ruthless tactic to undermine, threaten and intimidate the very people who you elected to protect you and your careers."

BA said it could not comment on individual cases. But a spokesman said: "We have a duty of care to run a formal internal process where staff members raise internal issues."

Read more: BA union staff in 'bullying' probe | The Sun |News|Sun Money

[Walnut]

I note that BA now seem to be talking to other sections of their workforce on "changes". It seems that Unite represents this workforce as well as the cabin crew. Is there likely to be any linkage between the various groupings of the same union? I can envisage Xmas bookings being affected

[skiver]

A view from the city...

A ballot leading to potential industrial action will only harden British Airways executives to go further for cost cutting. For all the jobs the union wants to protect, do they realise that they’ve pressed the “self-destruct” button?

Read full article here... British Airways Cabin Crew Make Bad Move - GLG News

[beerdrinker]

Bassa Bullying Newsletter

I have been copied this:

"By now most of you will have read the e mail from BASSA below. BA are now showing their true colours. They are bullying & intimidating our very own representatives. This is very serious & ugly behaviour & would appear they are trying the same tactics to the unions on the ground. These reps are just cabin crew like us all, they have partners, families & mortgages. They are potentially putting THEIR livlihoods on the line in an attempt to protect you & me & the whole cabin crew community. We simply must not allow this to happen. We must support them & each other. I wish all of the 6 reps the very best of luck & offer heart felt thanks for everything they have done for us so far.

All that is asked of you, is to please show your support by e-mailing this to all your BA mates in your address book. It will take you 5 min.


BASSA: AN ATTACK ON BASSA REPS‏
From: [email protected]
Sent: 28 October 2009 10:04:19




BA INTENT ON SMASHING BASSA - URGENT It is time to inform you just how far BA are preparing to go to wipe BASSA off the face of the earth. BA are formally investigating 6 BASSA reps on charges of "bullying and harassing". Virtually the whole BASSA negotiating team, which includes the convenors, the Chairman and the treasurer have now received letters informing then they are under investigation. The allegations are completely trumped up and originate from a cabin crew representative, outside BASSA who has a long standing dislike of us. This individual is due to leave BA at the end of the week!! His allegation follows a decision by the BASSA negotiating team not to be in the same room as him during negotiations last summer, after he carried out a viscious, unprovoked verbal attack on one of the committee. We have seen with the "Steve Harris affair" just how far the company will go when they want someone "removed". Where this particular case will end up, only BA know, but there is no doubt it is being used as a ruthless tactic to undermine, threaten and intimidate the very people who you elected to protect you and your careers. This is a very serious development indeed and you should all be made aware of the depths this company are prepared to go to in order to "cleanse" the unions. Bill Francis may continue to appear calmly floating along the surface waving at crew and serenely dispatching words of comfort and promise while the reality is, underneath the surface his little legs are flapping furiously, doing their best to trample on and drown the very people who dare to question his integrity. BA are led by greedy bullies who will stop at nothing to get their way. This is not union rhetoric. The proof - if any of you still need it - is in the formal letters of investigation received this week by 6 members of the BASSA committee. BA are just "clearing the decks" and watch out anyone in their way. Despite these being very worrying times for the 6 and their families, have no fear, their personal circumstances will not deter them from fighting the cause until the bitter end. "

[plodding along]

With respect to the 6 BASSA reps on bullying and harassement charges, it was not so long ago that BASSA were asking crew to report any pilots that they felt had overstepped the mark.
This could lead to the same investigation if justified.

Surely BASSA would support any investigation if a complaint has been made.

The fact that it is their own reps is irrelevant, BA have a duty to investigate do they not?

[bealine]

How about this idea Cap yes i said Cap a Capt's pay at say £75,000 and a FO at say £50,000 wouldn't that be fair. Oh no i hear cries i can't afford that i'll be looking at going LH/AF/KL etc etc. How can you pilots rant and rave about market rate this and market rate that if you want to save BA start by taking a realistic pay cut.

Now that sounds as though it makes sense, except for the fact that this recession is temporary.

Changes in the aviation industry are afoot, we know that, but in the long-term yields will increase. We are already seeing that passengers are willing to pay more for a seat on the Airbus A380, yet the operating costs of that aeroplane are significantly lower - about 50% in fact - of a 747-400. Surplus capacity is being taken out of the industry, resulting in fewer seats for sale which will attract harder prices.

So, in the long-term, there shouldn't be any need for any of us to suffer. That's why we have this dispute - because management want the changes permanently. Of course we can live with penny-pinching and cuts if we know that it will be "jam tomorrow" when the sun shines on us again!

This debate has become far too heated - oops, I see Watersidewonker's post has been deleted as well as the one which I reported to the moderator (and my own response). Intelligent contributions only please, no shouting down or ridiculing!

This is not "Jet Blast!"

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by bealine

I might say the same to you! You and your pilot community have come out of the negotiations relatively unscathed - okay, you may have to tighten your belt a wee bit in the short term, but after next year everything will be hunky dory again .

I thought you were starting to get with the program there Bealine. The pilot community has come out 'relatively unscathed' as you like to put it, because of a 60%+ increase in productivity over the last ten years, major reform to work rules to increase flexibility and operational robustness for BA, and a significant restructuring of pay scales (and no RPI+ pay increases for us either, just the corporate deal). If pilots are getting away 'relatively unscathed' it's because they've already been through the pain. The CAA figures make for interesting reading, not just because BA cabin crew seem to cost twice per much as Virgin, but because BA pilots now cost the same as Virgin pilots per flying hour. The engineers in BA are now so cheap that BA are pulling back outsourced work because it can be done cheaper in house. If people appear to be coming out of this deal 'relatively unscathed' it's because they put their house in order a long time ago, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the logical, number-crunching employees got their act together sooner than the emotional types. Things won't be 'hunky dory' in a years time because all these sacrifices are permanent.

[overstress]

This thread isn't about pilot pay, remember?

Re the allegation that BA is investigating BASSA reps: my thoughts are that if BASSA want to play big boy games, they have to abide by big boy rules. They also have forgotten that they are playing with someone else's ball...

Now what was that saying about tweaking a tiger's (WW's) tail?

[747-436]

WATERSIDEWONKER, there is no relevance to a Pilots (I am not a pilot) salary in this thread. Using your logic of a cap for a Capt, which is less than Easyjet pay, look at their website, then you would be happy for cabin crew to have a cap under what a low cost airline pay?

BASSA: AN ATTACK ON BASSA REPS‏

Surely BASSA making this public and giving hints to what it is about on emails won't help the cause with BA?!??!

[Carnage Matey!]

If BASSA reps don't want to investigated for bullying and harassment then perhaps they should neither bully nor harass individuals from other unions. I don't think that quoting the case of an individual who was sacked after improperly altering peoples rosters is the best example to choose either. Perhaps next they'll liken their 'persecution' to that of poor old Robert Mugabe?

[bealine]

I understand what you're saying, Carnage Matey, and to answer overstress' point first, the pilots' pay deal has a direct relationship with morale among the troops and the perceived cut-backs among cabin crew and ourselves on the ground.

Now, quite frankly, I don't know what pilots, engineers or cabin crew earn. What I do know is how little I take home and what a big proportion is being taken away from me - permanently. If I earn £20,000 and I am losing £120 a month next year, then that is a 7.2% pay reduction. Just how much did pilots lose - 2.6% was it? Errrr..........what's that increase in proiductivity? 60% is it? Our productivity is up around 500% and they still demand more staff to take VS, VL and VUL!

Where we do differ is that I don't believe these changes need to be permanent. All we are doing is increasing productivity, our own stress levels and driving ourselves out of work to keep the Fat Cats on the Board earning grossly inflated salaries!

It's high time they felt the pain like the rest of us!

[courtney]

The union gets it's strength through membership numbers. If it ballots 90% of the workforce it has muscle, if only 50% then it is weak, as only 50% at most can strike with a 100% vote. So if you disagree then leave. To much industrial action has resulted from minority votes. Also, non members cannot be labled as 'scabs' as they are not allowed to strike.

[Carnage Matey!]

Bealine -my pay cut is 2.61% basic, plus a further £1800 per year in flight pay, plus a further increase in productivity which is frankly too complex for me to quantify, but I don't think I'm that far off your 7.2%. While pilots pay deals may have a direct result on morale amongst ground staff, perhaps the unions should stop focussing so heavily on the people doing an entirely different job? I rarely see an accurate report on the details of a pilots settlement, far too complex for the average union rep to explain. Instead I see whatever angle they want to place on it to best suit their own needs. This time it's 'pilots got a 2.61% pay cut and they get it all back in shares next year'. I'll let you decide why it might suit some union reps for their members to feel aggrieved.

I'm not sure your doing yourself any favours by citing a productivity increase of 500%, mainly because it's either a gross exaggeration or you weren't doing very much at all before. There are only so many hours in the day! Facts are always better, particularly how many more hours you're working for BA, but I can tell you our 60% increase is verifiable.

Frankly I don't think the 'fat cats' argument holds water any more. Even if the entire board and management team worked for free last year we'd have lost £380 million pounds. How are we going to recoup that? I'm going to go on a little diversion here to make a point. Recently there was a conference for the Private Equity industry. Do you remember them? Swashbuckling firms buying up high street names using massive, cheap, leveraged loans and making a fortune? Why don't we hear of them now? At that conference, one of the leading lights of the industry stood up and said "The model is broken". No more cheap credit means the industry cannot function as it once did. It's over. End of. No wishing for the past, no reminiscing about how it was and hoping it'll come back. It's screwed. And thats very much like us. We can't wish Ryanair or Easyjet would go away. We can't wish Jet, or Kingfisher, or Emirates, Etihad, Qatar would vanish. We can't wish Singapore or Qantas weren't operating A380s with better first class products and nicking our customers. We can't wish away all those self service check in desks, or online check in opportunities, or put the low fares genie back in the bottle. Our industry model is broken: we do not compete any more. Some of our best customers are no longer in business. We have no money to invest in our product. We are sinking under the weight of a pension deficit. We cannot generate enough cash to survive. And it isn't going to be better in 12 months, 24 months or 36 months. We're all going to have to accept were going to get less of what we used to, because the alternative is to get none of it.

[Lord Bracken]

Changes in the aviation industry are afoot, we know that, but in the long-term yields will increase.

No, the long term trend is for yield to decrease in real terms (i.e. in terms of purchasing price parity.)

We are already seeing that passengers are willing to pay more for a seat on the Airbus A380, yet the operating costs of that aeroplane are significantly lower - about 50% in fact - of a 747-400.

No, they're not paying more. They're actually paying less because of the cheaper tickets that the aircraft (and it's not just the A380, it's the 777s too) can offer. And the cash that's paying for the tickets is going to those airlines that have the new, efficient fleets (EK, SQ, QR.)

Those airlines that operate lots of 744s (oh, wait, who could that be?) are at a competitive disadvantage.

Surplus capacity is being taken out of the industry, resulting in fewer seats for sale which will attract harder prices.

This is not the long term trend. Thousands of fuel-efficient, modern aircraft are due to come into operation over the next 20 years...very few of them by BA. The only people who are taking capacity out of the market are those with aircraft so old they can't compete on yield.

So, in the long-term, there shouldn't be any need for any of us to suffer.

All the evidence would point to the contrary.

That's why we have this dispute - because management want the changes permanently. Of course we can live with penny-pinching and cuts if we know that it will be "jam tomorrow" when the sun shines on us again!

The airline industry, as far as BA is concerned, is going through a permanent change. The premium North Atlantic market won't come back. The fleet will become ever more uncompetitive. The Asian and ME carriers will take ever more of the market. Europe is lost. The Americans are hiding behind Chapter 11. Open skies just accelerates the decline in yield.

Please BEELINE, if you're going to start pontificating on airline economics then at least do some basic reading!

BA's current business model is uncompetitive. The world has changed. The sun won't shine again unless serious changes to the cost base are made. The alternative is to end up like Pan Am. And no-one wants that.