British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[overstress]

Welcome to PPRuNe, oldbird. There are only a very few 'crew bashers' on here, many of us either support the vast 'silent' majority or are in fact married/cohabiting to/with crew. So we are on your side and have been trying to point out what would happen in this case for some while. Read back through this thread and its predecessors and you will see many postings with predictions of these current events.

The only people who get short shrift on here are the "Bassa 100%" brigade who merely spout the propaganda they have been fed by the Lala brigade.

I hope the crew come out of this with a new, leaner agreement, but it didn't have to happen this way.

[fincastle84]

The Passenger's View

Having been a BA frequent flyer for many years & flown all over the world from both LGW & LHR I have nothing but praise for the airline & all of its' staff. I have always been treated with courtesy & friendliness in a very professional manner.
I do feel sorry for the CC being led by the neanderthal I saw on TV last night. I just hope the common sense prevails on both sides & a working solution is reached, particularly as we're booked on BA 59 on 23 Dec!

[courtney]

looks like a few 'sponsored posters' here to me. As a pax of a number of airlines BA, with me, rank only behind the Americans. If you really want to see how it should be done in the cabin try Singapore. The standards with BA are so variable, sometimes good at others arrogant even disdainful, comes unfortunately with the company attitude. Virgin CC, I understand cost about half of what BA cost and are better in all respects. I will never fly with BA if I can avoid it, for the above reasons but also because you are never shure that they are going to bother to turn up for work.

[wobble2plank]

The sad common factor in all of this is that those who produce a poor service are in the minority but human nature tends to remember the bad and expects the good.

Within a 'service industry' this is correct and to be expected. However, as in this dispute, those CC with 'attitude' ruin the reputation of professionalism and customer care for the vast majority who keep these ideas at heart.

I think, by ridding the company of the union that believes it runs the operation, the CC and the rest of the company can focus on providing the customer with a better level of service. (even with one crew down the LGW crews are always smiling, popular and customer focused) Couple that with the reduced risk of strikes over the popular traveling times and BA could well have a future.

BASSA have ham-strung the company with its EG300 strike action, disruption agreements from the stone ages requiring the 'authorisation' of the BASSA board to action (!!!!!) and a LH allowance structure that almost (but not quite ) puts bankers to shame.

Time to rationalise and drag the company into the 21st century. Give the service to the customers and the investment return to the investors and give job security to the employees.

BASSA could have helped shape the future of the CC contracts, been in at the start negotiating the 'nitty gritty' and protecting the core issues they hold so valuable. Instead they continued with their stonewall tactics from the 80's and have subsequently lost control of future crews to the detriment of their current membership.

Best of luck to all of you and I hope that you think long and hard over the consequences of the ballot you are about to receive.

[bealine]

I would hazard a guess that if the contents of the document I saw are right, and if WW can be trusted to keep his word and if the management are prepared to promise not to come back to the negotiating table to try to take more away at a later date, a majority vote for strike action is unlikely.

Having said that, Willie Walsh promised to meet our Ground TU Reps when he came to address us on 7th October, but neither he or any of his team have been back to arrange anything since. In the meantime, one of our main reps (himself moderate) is being victimised by management for daring to use the company's email system to keep us up to date with the talks! Can you believe this is happening in modern Britain!

[PC767]

Is this debate about marmite? Love it - hate it.

Is this debate driven by highly successful capitalist v highly motivated socialists?

To the best of my knowledge, please prove me wrong, nobody here has actually been involved. Bassa didn't do this, didn't do that, didn't do the other. BA didn't do this, didn't do that, didn't do they other. One hundred and odd pages of opinion based on hearsay and propoganda.

I tried many moons ago to put my point of view accross as cabin crew, but was shot down, lost my rag, realised that debate on here had no affect what-so-ever on the outcome and remained silent. For the sake of balance I also got shot down on crewforum for being the only one in 30 plus pages to state that a strike until BA shuts was pathetic. There is no meeting off minds here, just steadfast opposing views, and I fear this situation is replicated at negotiations. Both sides are lead by determined Terriers snapping and gnashing to make their views dominant. Neither seem to care about the vast majority in the middle.

So to me. I want my company to continue, restart growth and succeed. But I do not want to be disadvantaged in doing so. I do not want strike action, I see it being counter productive for both unions and company, but neither do I want my long term prospects to disappear into a new fleet. I do believe that BA stalled during the summer because they knew what they wanted and they knew it would lead to industrial unrest. They also knew that BA had a terrible reputation for industrial unrest every summer, (something of a joke), and that in difficult trading summer would be our best chance to make money. So here we are. Francis talks about no new recruitment be fails to acknowledge that ex temps are no new recruits and neither are those in the holding pool who have already been technically recruited. Francis offers a monthly travel payment but fails to mention that it is pro rata. ie, should I find myself on 24hr, (which I already am), I will not be paid for those days. Consider that crew are already being rostered 24hr for upto 14 days per month and watch the travel payment half. Neither will it cover stand by duties, leave, ground duties/course or sick leave. The point is, of the figures suggested by Francis, nobody will actually earn them. This is the situation now. How will it be when work is transferred to a new fleet?

A new email quietly slipped into my in-box with a last minute paragraph which states that there is a new redeployment policy agreed by the TU reps. The TU reps say nothing has been agreed. My concern? It details where I will stand when I become surplus crew, ie as new fleet grows. And imply it will be join new fleet on a protected wage for 1 year or leave. Not as the current redeployment policy which has ex engineers, ground staff and office workers redeployed as cabin crew but with their original basic wages.

To those who state it is a good deal, I wish I could join you in your confidence, but the small long term detail is worrying. I certainly wouldn't strike about losing a crew member or CSDs on meal trollies, but what I have discussed leaves me in limbo.

Mr Walsh and Francis are correct. The current deal does not affect current crew terms and conditions, but it all means nothing if there is no work and ultimately we are driven to relinquish those terms and conditions. These men have been clever, dangerously clever from my point of view.

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by bealine

In the meantime, one of our main reps (himself moderate) is being victimised by management for daring to use the company's email system to keep us up to date with the talks! Can you believe this is happening in modern Britain!

Have a look at EG801 Section A Part 3 on the intranet. Most large companies in modern Britain have similar policies.

[fincastle84]

Reply To Courtney

I find your attitude overbearing & positively rude. I can assure you that I'm not sponsored by anyone but have spent over 30 years airborne as both an RAF Navigator & subsequently as a systems operator for a civilian company contracted to HMC&E. I was latterly employed as the Nav & Performance Officer & Dangerous Goods Instructor for a small airline that sadly failed in December. I am therefore very well qualified to comment on both the standard of BA flight & cabin crew & also the perils that face them all in these difficult times. As you no longer fly with BA I would respectfully suggest that your views are no longer current.

[keel beam]

Yesterday, 13:57 #2273 (permalink) Adi54321

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 12


Are the "Thatcher generation" and Thatcherism 2 different things ? Love her or hate her Margaret Thatcher's biggest banner was that "people should be buying things with money that haven't yet earnt". A pole apart from having the good things now !

I don't think a pole apart, interpretations may vary, but I would suggest a very close relationship?

[Carnage Matey!]

Hot off the press -latest BASSA newsflash.

I suspect this will form the basis of their 'heartfelt plea' newspaper ad they are planning. Might have been corrupted a little in the cut and paste from the BASSA website.

BASSA Statement
Oct 27th, 2009 by admin

A MESSAGE TO ALL BA PASSENGERS!
Why are British Airways cabin crew balloting for industrial action?

BA say none of their crew will be financially worse off with the impositions of taking a crew member off the aircraft on November 16th and it will just mean everyone will have to work that little bit harder. While on the surface what BA are saying is not untrue it is the unspoken underlying plans that do much to threaten BA cabin crews’ futures and in turn, as importantly the welfare of you, the passengers on the aircraft.

Willie Walsh wants to do to BA what he did at Aer Lingus, which is to respond to a sea change in market economics and ensure the survival of the company. With respect to Aer Lingus BA is nowhere near Aer Lingus’s position prior to Mr Walsh’s involvement. BA made a profit year in year out and has only undergone a blip the last year due to the recession, a blip which shows no signs of abating. Unfortunately Mr Walsh has seen this as his chance to turn BA into a business which can compete survive in the era of Ryan Air. The recent Panorama programme exposed how Michael O’Leary works and how he treats his employees who don’t belong to trade unions and how his passengers are inconvenienced when things go wrong. Mr Walsh would like to be in Michael O’Leary’s shoes, leading a financially strong company with sizeable financial reserves, but that means reducing the disruptive influence of overly powerful Unions and the best place to start is with BASSA - the main cabin crew union. Once that has been achieved (and the imposition of one or two off an aircraft is just a start) the rest will follow as sure as night follows day. There is already talk of introducing a “new fleet” with crew on market competitive terms and conditions and once this “Trojan horse” has been wheeled into position the career prospects of BA’s 15000 cabin crew community will be under severe threat. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO TAKE ACTION NOW! Mr Walsh is not a man to reason with. He once said “a reasonable man gets nowhere with negotiation”. Perhaps you can begin to see what we are up against?

What sort of people are BA cabin crew?

Well one thing they are definitely is political “militants”. They are mums and dads, wives and husbands, brothers and sisters with parents, children, boyfriends and girlfriends to care for and to look after, and they will not budge from their industrial agreements, even if it means you don’t get to see your mums and dads, brothers and sisters, children, boyfriends and girlfriends that you have to care for and look after. That’s not our problem. They come in every shape, size and colour, they come from various different religious, cultural and political backgrounds and they are aged between 20 and 65. Diverse for sure, but they have one thing in common - they are there in a BA uniform because nowhere else can they earn so much, for doing so little in an unskilled job. Sounds corny we know but it is true. If your Mum or Dad or daughter or son suddenly became seriously ill on an aircraft would you just want any old body tackling the emergency, would you want someone who has experience, knowhow and compassion, or would you want a tired, grumpy crewmember who long since forgotten the correct way to do things?
BA has not become the proud airline it has on the back of that compassion. The care that comforts the bewildered or frightened, the care that nurses anything from minor headaches to full-blown heart attacks. The care to the old and very young travelling alone. BA cabin crew take great pride in their reputation, which has not developed overnight. It has taken years of walkouts, militancy and obstinacy to achieve. It has grown since the far off days of B.O.A.C and B.E.A when those airlines sold themselves on the back of employing the best cabin crew in the world – and their global reach and monopoly on many routes. Those crew have not changed (indeed some of our older members were around in those days) but the world has. Care and compassion don’t count for much in their cost driven business world. Nowadays they want as many backsides on seats and offer them just enough to get by - with meal quality dwindling and poorly maintained aircraft cabins, but above all, a ticket so cheap you can fly to Australia at a lower cost per mile than you’d pay for a journey in a London taxi. Ground staff throughout the world have been laid off; everything has been cut back in the name of economic survival and technological progress. The very core brand value that used to make BA the “World’s Favourite Airline” is no longer regarded as of paramount importance. The passengers are now given as much as the lean margins on their tickets afford and crew are becoming increasingly frustrated at the decline in standards.

Contrary to popular belief the salary for new cabin crew is very low - just little more than £11,500pa to top up the £1000 per month in meal allowances and overtime payments. In 1997 BA imposed a new tier of payment, which means over three quarters of the cabin crew on the aircraft really struggle to make ends meet if they do not fly a single days work in a month. After 5 years a crew member could expect to be on aprox £14,000 plus allowances and overtime, while after 10 years service a cabin crew member is on less than £20,000 basic for a job that requires barely 5 GCSEs . The job is no longer about 5 star hotels and tanning by the pool - those days are virtually gone. We are now expected to work for a living. Aviation has moved on with longer more frequent flights and cabin crew now work at a frenetic pace often with barely three hours break on board the aircraft or 2 hours for lunch at Heathrow. As you will know from being a passenger the state of world wide security issues has made flying around a lot more worrying and stressful which is something crew have to deal with on a 24/7 basis, whenever away from base. But, we are not complaining - the job, despite the stresses that calling in sick to avoid Christmases away from home and the anniversaries and birthdays we’d miss brings, an enriching one, indeed some might say highly enriching, and one that brings us into contact with people, with people like you, for just as long as we have to remain on the aircraft. People that we want to explain why we might have to do what we have to do to bring BA to its knees.

We have no cares about your travel plans. We do not care if we cause distress at airports, especially as the holiday season approaches, but our unions intentions leave us with little alternative. We have tried talking, briefly, but we didn’t like it. We have offered to make insignificant savings but they are not interested. They are hell bent on removing the one obstacle that stands between them doing what is necessary to ensure the survival of the business. We seek your understanding of our predicament.

We are slightly sorry that the general public could be caught up in this whole sad episode. We honestly believe that only the threat of industrial action will deflect BA away from their vision that will leave this country with an airline it can feel secure in and proud of. There may be pain but if BASSA can be persuaded to alter its catastrophic path not only will cabin crew have protected their jobs and futures but the passenger experience will once again return to enjoyable levels and this country will have an airline it can be proud of. We speak from our wallets.

[oldbird]

PC767, that came across as a well thought out post. I did want to mention this bit you said...

So to me. I want my company to continue, restart growth and succeed. But I do not want to be disadvantaged in doing so.

Believe me, nor do I. I'd love to see things carry on the way they are but it's not going to happen. Sometimes you have to take a hit and it could have been much worse. BASSA should have been working on a proposal when Op Columbus first got leaked and they should have done a offensive attack instead of the mess we've got now with a total lack of credibility and zero support from anyone outside LHR.

And to Courtney. If you like Singapore Airlines you're very welcome to fly on them!

[Cavitation]

I get the drift of the original BASSA note (despite CM’s…”alterations”) but I have to say:

• it’s way too long to be an effective piece of communication
• the emphasis on “poor me/poor us/poor you” is truly eye-watering (but not in the intended way)
• virtually everyone on any given plane has already lost money/jobs/opportunities/perks or whatever – why the heck should they honestly care?

I see so many comments from unions telling passengers that services and standards will drop if the crew don’t get their way – my reaction is always “so what?”

The vast majority of ordinary people fly on any given flight due to the a) cost b) route and c) time. The frequent flyer elites will continue to accrue their miles and tier points and the rest will go with the cheapest – no matter whom. I work in a department of over 60 people – a few (actually two) are frequent flyers who have ambitions regarding airline status etc, but the rest wouldn’t even be able to tell you what sort of plane they flew on – some don’t even remember which airline they used (I find it amazing but it *is* true) I’m pretty sure that most of them don’t care if they get a smile or a “hello Mr XXX” on boarding as long as they get to where they want to go cheaply and quickly.

This “message” hits all the wrong spots and only the already converted would truly empathise with its contents. Another missed opportunity by BASSA - very amatuerish.

[jetset lady]

Originally Posted by bealine

I would hazard a guess that if the contents of the document I saw are right, and if WW can be trusted to keep his word and if the management are prepared to promise not to come back to the negotiating table to try to take more away at a later date, a majority vote for strike action is unlikely.

Unfortunately, I'm not so sure. I can see us ending up with the majority vote for strike action for two reasons.

Apathy - There are crew that still have no idea what is going on. They may not really want strike action but they'll look at their voting paper and think, "What's the point? It's bound to be a yes vote, anyway." So they won't bother voting at all. Say what you like about BASSA. At least they manage to incite some passion in their members!

Non Union Members - So many have now left the unions, or never belonged to one in the first place, especially at LGW. They won't have a choice. The only reason I have continued paying my subs every month is to ensure that I get to put my X in the box!

Maybe I'm being overally pessimistic. I really hope so, but past history says otherwise....

[midman]

CM,

Was that really (without some additions) a statement on the Bassa website?

In its rambling, cliche ridden verbosity it seems to reinforce all the preconceptions any member of the public might have about Bassa. Self important, over emotional, displaying economic illiteracy. That must convince no-one.

And the problem is Bassa think that the public adore them and will empathise with them. They've been told how wonderful they are by management for too long, that they are the reason BA is what it is. Well now they are going to get a reality check and join the real world.

And it's going to be painful for its members.

[drew3325]

Just a couple of questions

As the old debate rolls on and on I was wondering if anyone could answer the following:

1) How many cabin crew are there - conflicting numbers seem to appear in Bassa literature and the daily news papers ranging anything from 13500 to Bassa's latest figure of 15,000. The number seems to change hourly.

2) With what appears to be a growing number of CC who are annoyed and dis-satisfied with how BASSA have handled this whole episode - will you be going along to the meeting on the 2nd November and asking for a vote of no confidence in the Executive? I would if I could but alas I am not crew

3) Are BASSA missing the opportunity with the ballot for industrial action to actually ask an additional question on the ballot paper " Do you support BASSA in what it has done so far?" Perhaps to many "no's" on one ballot paper would be scary

On a final note, and it may only be rumour, one never knows - but one cabin crew member has started a petition on facebook to gauge interest in persuing the following:
a) Persuing legal action on the basis of not having their best interests fought for by the union
b) Interest in setting up a break away union that represents the majority rather than the minority.

These are interesting times......

[Ancient Observer]

CM
very good. Where did you get that from?
AO

[Carnage Matey!]

AO - that really is a BASSA statement that they have just released on their website! Obviously I had to edit it a touch - I mean they can't spell inconvenience and I wouldn't want anyone thinking it was my error.

[BentleyH]

Legal action

From what I gather internally inside BA, the company have been very careful in what they are imposing on 16th November. You will have seen many quotes about non-contractual changes and this is because they will plan to seek an injunction that the strike is illegal beacuse the company isn´t making any changes to anybody´s contract. This is why the pay cut has been taken off the table and there are no changes to current agreements such as allowances, scheduling rules etc which are clearly contractural.

BASSA will claim crew compliments are contractural but BA have some very clear legal advice that they aren´t and BASSA will end up spending months on this issue through the courts. In a similar scenario to open skies, BASSA will have to spend a huge amount of cash and risk getting nowhere fast. If they continue with any action, they risk severe financial penalties from the courts which will effectively right them off.

BA are not stupid, they have been planning this for a very long time (whilst hoping BASSA would finally come to the negotiating table which they haven´t). The items being introduced and the new fleet have been very carefully selected to deliver the cost savings without breaking any contractural commitments.

Watch this space.

[The Blu Riband]

With regard to the 'travel payment',
which is to replace box payments, overtime , destination payments and back to back payments.

The payment is to be 800pm for pursers, and 900pm for csds.

Pro rata is in relation to days worked.
So if you are part time , or sick, then clearly you won't get paid the money.
But nor would you now , with the current payment system.

Are there really many crew earning in excess of 1000 pm just for these extra payments.

Current meal allowances, and nightstop payments etc will continue.

.............................................

I think its a good deal; and with good negotiators could be tweaked appropriately. Of course this won't happen. Bassa will implode!!

[nuigini]

BASSA might claim that crew complement is contractual but why have they advised to operate as scheduled and leave base with one crew down on November 16th? Probably because crew complement is non-contractual and refusal to operate will be considered as an unlegal industrial action.

Unless they have changed their minds...

Many crew don't understand that BA isn't stupid. They know what they are doing. Why would they otherwise go ahead with this if they were afraid of a possible strike?

See you on the 2nd at the race course unless called out on standby. I'm more than tempted to raise my voice and ask what they are doing. Feel free to join! Who knows? There might be a cat fight after certain members on CF have threatened to punch certain members on here for having a different opinion.