British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[wobble2plank]

Flying Chick,

It has been posted countless times in this thread that BA are counting on a strike mandate to force the whole shebang to the courts.

Hit BASSA with an injunction as they have failed to negotiate properly and the union is dead.

BASSA is playing into a dead end with the hang mans noose at the bottom!

[Carnage Matey!]

I don't keep count deary but I'd say plenty since March. I guess that means I'm more in touch with long haul crew than you, and as we all know, only a long haul strike will make any impact on BA. You can rant and rave all you like on Eurofleet, but your colleagues in the bar in Narita and Hong Kong tell me they won't be sacrificing a plum trip for a futile strike. After all, it's only one more purser off and the CSD working in the cabin.

[nuigini]

P.S I love BA and I love the crew I work with. I don't think you are all pathetic I just stated that it was pathetic that Nugini should be so qualified in saying that hardly anyone will strike. No one wants to but we shall see.

I'm not qualified to say that. Fair enough. Are you any more qualified to say that all of you will strike?

In case you haven't realised, BASSA has placed you, and the rest of us, in this situation because of their childish behaviour. As you say, wake up and smell the coffee and realise what's happening because of BASSA! I remember one certain crew saying that if BASSA asks them to jump, they will ask how high. Very clever indeed.

The longer it goes, the fall will be harder for us. We still need to meet our savings and every day is becoming expensier.

I'm on WW and there are definitely mixed feelings about a prospective strike. Believe it or not but some can't actually be bothered at all and it won't actually have a great impact on us. What exactly are you going to be striking over? Some crew reduction? Loss in pay (Oh, by the way, which was thrown at the table by this particular union without BA asking for it)? We should be glad BA is backing down on the pay cut. Again, happily offered by BASSA.

[overstress]

Flying chick

Your loyalty to the BASSA party line is.... err.. no, forget that.

The question I would ask you is do you really believe what BASSA is peddling?

Do you have any idea how much trouble BASSA are going to be in if they start down the ballot route? Yes, they are entitled to have a strike ballot. Even if the vote is in favour and people do go out, they will probably get sacked immediately and at the subsequent tribunal a few years down the line, BA will refuse to re-instate them.

The militants will have gone at a stroke leaving WW to accelerate the imposition of New Fleet.

Please don't patronise me now saying I don't understand what crew are fighting for, as I think I understand very well that some die-hards are prepared to go to any lengths to maintain their individual life-styles.

[Carnage Matey!]

Interestingly the latest update from Unite contains this:

British Airways are imposing changes and will be breaking our agreements and contracts. Right now, it may appear frustratingly quiet for you our members, but be assured this is far from the case. As we said before, we will hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, and rest assured your union is doing exactly that.

We need your help to spread the word amongst your friends and colleagues.

My bold. Does that sound like the kind of thing a union says when it knows it's members stand behind it? Or does it sound like an appeal from a union that knows it's members have no heart for a fight?

[bermudatriangle]

carnage,your assumption that crew will sacrifice their long term earnings and lifestyle for one plum trip astounds me.
the potential loss of earnings is huge,as opposed to one trips allowances.
the proposals are much more far reaching than including the csd in the service routine and reducing a purser from the aircraft.
i don't know who you spoke to,but i can assure you,the cabin crew are becoming increasingly aware of the potential impact on thier future earnings,career prospect and lifestyle.
with imposition of new working practices from 16 november,i can see major disruption in the very near future.

[deeceethree]

flying chick,

You can hope all you like. I am also sure you don't have a clue about what we are fighting for. Also, the world doesn't owe me anything. The world is not as bad has you are you making out to be.

So why are demanding that everyone else in BA rolls over so that BASSA can continue pretty much as normal? People take that as a sign that you lot think the rest of the company, the proverbial world, must somehow support your living. And I'll think you will find that it is me and pretty much everyone else who believes the economics out there in the big wide world, beyond your fairy tale existence, are very sad.

P.S I love BA and I love the crew I work with.

Fibber! You love the outrageous pay and conditions that BASSA has perpetuated for you, and you can't quite grasp the reality that is about to give you a smack round the chops. If "The world is not as bad has you are you making out to be" then best you be off quick and find another job, because the one you have now isn't going to be there if the BASSA lot get their way.

But then you don't have the mettle to really follow through on your strike, do you? Nor to pack up and go work elsewhere.

[deeceethree]

. As we said before, we will hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, and rest assured your union is doing exactly that.

Thats all that BASSA has left - hope! Unsurprising given their behaviour, and what an indictment. Too late for hoping now!

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by bermudatriangle

carnage,your assumption that crew will sacrifice their long term earnings and lifestyle for one plum trip astounds me.

Why so? Were you not around for previous disputes? Many people don't want, or simply can't afford to lose that sort of cash. It's been amply demonstrated in almost every prior BA dispute with the cabin crew. Throw enough cash at the problem at people will turn up to operate.

the potential loss of earnings is huge,as opposed to one trips allowances.
the proposals are much more far reaching than including the csd in the service routine and reducing a purser from the aircraft.

It's not me you've got to convince. I seem to know more about the proposals and the likely road map ahead than any of the crew I speak to. Is that because BASSA are starving them of information with which to make an informed decision?

i don't know who you spoke to,but i can assure you,the cabin crew are becoming increasingly aware of the potential impact on thier future earnings,career prospect and lifestyle.

Increasingly aware? But the tubthumpers have been telling us that all crew are aware, and hopping mad! We both know the reality is that many crew don't know or don't care, and those who see their only chance of PTW, VR or fleet changes at risk are, inevitably, going to look after their own interests first. It looks like you're in a race to convince the uninterested to vote, possibly against their immediate desires.

with imposition of new working practices from 16 november,i can see major disruption in the very near future.

To be quite honest, I don't. A few people will get arsey on the 16th when the imposition occurs, some won't operate and will be suspended as a result. Crew will fly the new routines whilst BASSA waits on the ballot process and in the end all will have to decide if they really want a strike (and completely flexed rosters) in the run up to Christmas. With Santas bills to pay and parties to attend it'll seem awfully cold on a picket line. And after all, it's just a purser off and a CSD in the cabin. Isn't it?

[dantheflyboy]

All crew for strike?

Some crew have been very vocal about going for a strike. I just keep my opinion to myself as I can't be bothered to get into a war of words. I can tell you that I fear for the future re all these changes and realise that it will in the long run mean loss of earnings. However I just about get from month to month and I can not afford to even go sick and when I have had no choice but to go sick, it has take me a month or two to catch up.
So there is no way I can give up money for a strike and if you can afford to then good on ya! but I'm sure I am not alone.

[cym]

flying chick

As ex crew I also have an opinion. Since stooping flying I work in a true commercial environment - as do most other crew flying. - Virgin. restructued national carriers, charter and loco crews! BA do not operate in a vacume

Most people in all walks of life have come to accept that changes in working practices are inevitable - understand the drivers, negotiate and reach an agreement that suits both sides. In this case this has clearly not happened. You can stick your fingers in your ears and say 'I'm not listening' as much as you like - reality has to be accepted. BA needs to change or it will not survive - simple as and BASSA has done you no favours in this respect.

Carries do fail - Pan Am, TWA, Sabena, Swissair, - all thought to be gold plated in the past - what happened? A lot of unemployed cabin crew when they failed.

The truth of the situation is that you're in potentail loose / loose situation if a strike goes ahead - loss of pay whilst a strike goes ahead followed possibly by your job.

Change is always unsettling - I appreciate that but as the luddites learned to quote a PM I detest 'There is no alternative'

[Matt101]

Originally Posted by bermudatriangle

.
the potential loss of earnings is huge

I read this a lot on here but I am entirely confused as to where it comes from. New Fleet may be a threat to your potential variable payments in the future but then BA has offered a way out of that, in the form of a move towards more fixed payments.

Where exactly do any other losses come from - you aren't being asked for a pay cut you are being asked to work with a reduced crewing compliment and to increas productivity. The new fleet being separate means that you still have the potential for upgrade within your own fleets. Yes less purser positions available but also less main crew to fight for them, and all the cuts in head count are via voluntary means....I fail to see where all this "huge" loss in earnings talk is coming from.

[nuigini]

To be on the fair side, our third purser isn't going anywhere for the time being except to the upper deck.

Most flights on the 16th of November will depart as scheduled with one less crew onboard. That's the reality. We will get on with our lives whether we like it or not.

WW Scheduling Agreement does indicate about full crew complement but the question is how many SCCM have the guts not to operate. Those refusing to do so will probably find themselves in serious trouble. Despite that it is in the agreement, I think they have to be careful over their decision.

I am also convinced that BA has looked into this VERY carefully and know what they are doing. I'm not very fond of either, which I'm sure not many people are, but no parties seem to be getting anywhere due to several reasons. This is the consequence.

[nuigini]

Where exactly do any other losses come from - you aren't being asked for a pay cut you are being asked to work with a reduced crewing compliment and to increas productivity.

A very good point. I have pointed this out a couple of times. All of us should be VERY GLAD that we are not getting a 2.61% pay cut. BA is kind not asking for it, especially when it was thrown into their hands earlier this summer by a particular union. BASSA can't understand why BA never accepted their proposal when it did "include a pay cut". Well done.

[fly12345]

It might be a useless, militant union but it is the only union cabin crew belong to, the problem now is the dilemma of either backing ones union or trust BA for the future, sadly I feel regardless of how self inflicted the latest situation has arisen most crew will be backing their union causing untold damage to BA and eventually themselves.

[BentleyH]

Sounds familiar...

Just returned from a shorthaul trip today and some of the crew were highly emotional about the whole thing.

It seems crew have very short memories. They were marched up the hill only 2 years ago over a spurious set of issues and the union backed down at the 11th hour, but only after BA had been forced to cancel the flying programme for 3 days. That 'deal' involved delaying future annual pay rises for six months to provide the four additional increments. So, no new money from BA and all other crew funded the increments for the small number of people at the time who benefited.

WW said that time that if the crew didn't realise what they were doing voting for a strike last time, they sure as hell do now and there will be no sympathy for quotes after the event along the lines of ' we were just lead along by the union. We didn't really mean to bring the business to its knees'.

You have all been let down badly by BASSA (just as you were in 2007). Why doesn't anybody learn?? We have all had to accept change but that is a much better outcome for us than the route BASSA are now forcing you down. All the rest of us have a right to try and get you to wake up and smell the coffee because I don't want to go down because of a bunch of idiots in BASSA HQ.

Why is it always BASSA. The crews really need to wake up and do something about the current situation. It will not fix itself if the union think you'll support them in a lengthy and costly strike. BA and WW will not back down, that is for certain as they know CC will fragment very quickly, once the heat is on.

[deeceethree]

It might be a useless, militant union but it is the only union cabin crew belong to ....

Not strictly true. There is Amicus, but both it and BASSA have come under the umbrella of the TGWU. Amicus members are not at all happy at being dragged under by the buffoons at BASSA., and neither are other BA work groups in the TGWU fold.

.... sadly I feel regardless of how self inflicted the latest situation has arisen most crew will be backing their union causing untold damage to BA and eventually themselves.

Damage to BA? I don't think it will be anything that BA hasn't planned for, and therefore any possible damage will be contained and limited.

Cabin crew doing damage to themselves? Well if they are aware "of how self inflicted the latest situation" is, but are still going to stumble lemming-like after their union clowns, then they have only themselves to blame.

[Wobbler]

Question - If crew turn up and operate on the 16th and thereafter, will they be deemed to have accepted the new crewing levels? I take it that anyone that refuses to operate will be suspended - how many will do that if there is no guarantee of support for a strike?

[Matt101]

Originally Posted by nuigini

A very good point. I have pointed this out a couple of times. All of us should be VERY GLAD that we are not getting a 2.61% pay cut. BA is kind not asking for it, especially when it was thrown into their hands earlier this summer by a particular union. BASSA can't understand why BA never accepted their proposal when it did "include a pay cut". Well done.

Hey Nuigini - this is pretty much how I see it (though as always if someone is able to give some figures showing how earnings will be affected I am more than happy to be proved wrong).

Surely the pay cut that was offered by BASSA not being taken by BA is a blessing in disguise (the disguise being some significant - I don't wish to trivialise - changes to the working agreement). Though I know the status quo is preferable, it was never going to be an option. It just seems that the offer is far less horrendous than it is made out to be.

[Human Factor]

Question - If crew turn up and operate on the 16th and thereafter, will they be deemed to have accepted the new crewing levels? I take it that anyone that refuses to operate will be suspended - how many will do that if there is no guarantee of support for a strike?

[flippant]Ask BASSA, that's what they're there for.[/flippant]

Unless there has been a legal ballot in favour of industrial action on 16th (which there hasn't) and appropriate notice has been given by BASSA (which there hasn't), you will be in breach of your contract if you fail to turn up for a rostered duty and will risk disciplinary action. Beware "pattern sickness" in that regard as well.

As to the first part of your question and bearing in mind I'm not a lawyer, in the long run the courts would probably suggest that as crew have been operating to the new levels for x weeks or perhaps that no ballot had been held in advance of the changes, they have accepted them. It would be for BASSA to come up with a legal reason why they should revert back to the old levels, which neatly brings in "Some Other Substantial Reason".

Sadly, your union has been caught by the short and curlies.

I have a question in return:

BASSA said they would ballot immediately if BA announced imposition. They haven't. Why not?