Dis Gruntled

Hi Gregg
I was just indicating that having read your posts on ukar about the £150k being the final hurdle I am trying to make the point that it is far far from it. Pm me if you want to clarify it more.

cheers
Dave

gareth herts

I've posted a great deal about this on UKAR recently but feel it's about time to have my say here!

The sooner the powers that be at TVOC realise that only a clear statement clarifying exactly what the current situation is the better.

The current situation is serving only to breed mistrust and a loss of confidence in their ability to see this project through to its natural conclusion of seeing 558 in the air throughout the airshow season, for this year and years to come.

This past few weeks have seen numerous rumours, arguments, counter arguments and scandal thrown around on the subject of 558, all as a result of their almost complete lack of communication and transparency.

Most of us that support the project understand that complete transparency is nigh on impossible for any business - but significant numbers of people have recently contacted TVOC to ask questions, offer professional expertise with regards to PR and sponsorship and, in some cases, contribute with fundraising ideas. The vast majority of these people have received no response - not even a "no thanks". One guy even had a guarantee of regular funding from a group he had worked to get together and TVOC never even bothered to send him the paperwork he needed to get the money to them!

Whatever the truth behind the current situation, and it will all come out eventually, the current brick wall behind which they "appear" to be hiding does them no favours at all. Aviation enthusiasts are now doubting the viability of the project, those who have offered professional help (yes, including me) are tired of offering and the whole thing is beginning to look like a farce I'm afraid. Only today I have seen yet another "new" figure for 558's monthly upkeep (about the fourth different one that has been stated) and Dr Pleming has been quoted from RAF News as saying that "her immediate prospects look dire".

Any potential sponsors, if there are any, who are keeping a close eye on the project, must be wondering what on earth they might be letting themselves in for. Will they pay up for sponsorship rights and then be asked to put their hands in their pockets again and again? Does the management have a firm grip on the project or is it all going to go belly-up?

PR is all about perception and right now the perception of TVOC is not a positive one. I sincerely hope that can be changed and that the goal is achieved, but I don't believe it will happen unless they make some positive move with regards to communication and openess.

Gareth

daddy flm

I hope that you as a club member can actually provide evidence that prove my posts on ukar that i was removed for are indeed not true

The admin staff are aware of my feelings and inform me that you have a letter on the real plight of the project FUNDING TIMESCALES COSTS ETC

Please please pass this on to us all and kill the sad state once and for all or is this just hot air like the moaning in the pub after 1st flight about tvoc
elephants dont forget.

Tim McLelland

Personally, I've pretty-much give-up with this saga. As you can see from the posts on here, people are very keen to argue about all manner of different aspects surrounding the story but none of this does anything to provide a solution. As I've said on previous posts, the only way forward is to get a clear and concise response from TVOC as to what has happened and what is likely to happen, without all the half-turths, media statements and all the other stuff.

This can only be done by one person or one group putting direct pressure on TVOC, or putting similar pressure on HLF to demand proper answers from TVOC. Simply arguing amongst ourselves is a great way to vent frustrations, but it solves nothing.

Worse still, I note that on enthusiast sites (particularly UKAR), people are saying all kinds of stuff and setting-up their own "action plans", letters to MP's and so on. It's complete chaos and of course the result will be that TVOC simply ignore all this activity as being insignificant babble from "plane spotters". Scattered attempts at half-hearted action is doubtless motivated by good intentions, but it's going to do nothing.

I think the whole saga is a lost cause to be honest. If there are people all over the place making different demands, asking different questions, offering different suggestions and so on, this saga is just going to plod-along in ever-decreasing circles while TVOC happily do whatever they like, behind closed doors. It's pointless even getting involved.

I'm at risk of repeating myself again here, but unless someone with political, media or legal clout comes forward to spearhead a proper effort to find-out what's been going-on and what can be done, then there will be nothing for everyone to get behind, which means all this misery will just continue for no obvious purpose. It's utterly pointless.

gareth herts

It's a lost cause is it? This is a group of people trying their hearts out to do whatever they can to help this project keep going, and it is help given in an atmosphere of almost secrecy from the people running it.

If anyone at TVOC actually deemed such enthusiasts worthy of communication then maybe things would be better organised.

They might like to remember who has donated so much to get the project to this stage, and also who will be spending their hard-earned to go and see the jet if she ever appears publicly. That carries some clout shortly!

andrewmcharlton

TSM,

I am sure the response was probably initiated by the CC and HLF FOI request but if that's what it takes well so be it.

If nobody else has any constructive ideas to PM me about to include in a mail to them I will write off and see what if anything comes back and keep you posted.

By the way, professional advisors often give advice to do something contrary to a given set of rules and that advice is usually based on the consequences of not doing it being worse than the consequences of doing it. Advisors simply advise on the likely outcomes ultimately it's the clients decision and in my years in law I have seen some complete crackjacks take their own course against advice and end up much worse off !

C'est la vie.

Exrigger

Bearing in mind the diverse range of comments and putting to one side the anomalies re Mr Pleming and forums, it is true that the project would not be where it is if it were not for the club members, supporters, the general public directly or through the lottery, and as I said earlier the engineers who carried out the restoration.

Never forget the massive achievement to reach first flight of this type of aircraft and the support from OEMs, CAA, Marshalls etc to help achieve that, but let’s agree that TVOC management should have done/could do more to help the very people that support this project to help them.

If at the end of the day it goes wrong and the impossible dream turns out to be exactly that then at least those members and supporters will know they have done everything they could possibly do to keep that dream alive.

To those who have been upset by an over enthusiastic e-mail/letter overload, please believe it was not done out of malice and please do not turn your backs on the project because of it.

I do not want to be seen to be looking through rose tinted glasses, and I too have had a few rough comments aimed at me for some pertinent questions that I have asked and still not had answered, but I still support the project as best I can, despite being demoralised about the silence from TVOC.

I will add I am nothing to do with TVOC, I am merely one of those supporters/members who would love to see the first aircraft I worked on when I joined up back in the air.

Flying Signman

Just noticed that a "e-petition" with number 10 is running here...
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/VulcanToTheSky/

Cypherus

Post number 424 is something that those of us who have been watching and supporting this project for many years now probably found more than a little galling, as for Phleming being a Pprune member, sorry I just do not catch the relevance, joined Dec 2005, posted Aug 2006 total posts, (1). Made as a result of another’s insistence that he ‘Take a Look’ at the Forum. He then goes on too state in detail his feelings about Forums and his considered opinion on their content and how he can ‘Illuminate’ the thread.

Ok let us take a closer look at that,….. he states having read a ‘couple of pages’ he grasps the depth of feeling being expressed, Doubtful really, there had been a total of 421 posts prior to his single offering large numbers of which had been supportive others that were not relevant too the thread in content and among these a very small number which had expressed well founded arguments on the state of the project, going through them now one would be hard pressed to get the undercurrent of feeling from just a couple of pages reading so given that one must assume, hopefully that he read the thread fully and understood it and still reads it.

Overall however the ‘Good Doctor’ managed to construct a workable post consisting mostly of regurgitated information then currently available on the TVOC website, inclusion of a few additional figures gave it a wholesome flavour assumed fit for the members of this forum, however what also comes through strongly are certain facts that were mentioned at that time in passing but have since become very relevant too the situation the TVOC finds itself in currently regarding finance.

The project started with in the best tradition of such projects a structural survey, rightly this brought too light a number of problems that required rectification, but the one thing that seemed to have escaped this survey was the major item of the extent of the wheel well corrosion, Since this has been cited as a major reason why the project expended so much money over budget my question has long been why this item was not picked up on the survey originally as it turned out to be almost a project killer if the accounts are to be believed, having spoken to several aircrew about it since it became a feature it turns out that this one was well known about by the RAF, had been seen on a number of occasions before as airframes went through majors and could not have been overlooked by the TVOC.

Such anomalies as this run though the entire operation of the project and considering the hype placed on the professional approach taken by the TVOC towards engineering it leaves one asking more than a few pertinent questions about the management of this aspect of the operation and with hindsight goes a long way towards explaining why Marshalls cost the TVOC so much money, but not totally, that there seems to have been the assumption by the group that Marshalls were working too a fixed price seems on the face of it too have been very lax on their part appearing to be more concerned over a 20 month period in getting the insurance companies to talk civil to each other as to overlook this seemingly minor item on the agenda, I cannot blame Marshalls for this as they are after all a major aviation engineering company with share holders to satisfy, but I can question the boards naive approach too the matter.

Moving on slightly too the subject of information management or lack of it in the opinion of some, Phleming makes the point ‘I remain amazed that despite all our efforts, so many are still unaware of what we are trying to do But when these people are informed, they are totally supportive.’

I would not be surprised myself after all this time the TVOC is still as insular as it always was, still unable too grasp the significant essence of a forum in it’s ability to fully understand a subject, make cognitive decisions about the matter at hand and make a worthwhile contribution too the project, however I do feel they understand that such a forum could if slighted make life very difficult indeed for a management group entrenched as this one appears to be in a sense of it’s own righteousness.

This post was truncated due too the length and hardly scratches the surface of the problems currently evident in the resident board and management of the TVOC but it does I feel make clear that Dr Phlemings post was designed for the consumption of and to silence forthwith what he sees as the chattering classes and that his feelings too such an organ as a forum are those of distain and beneath worthwhile consideration, but he also makes it clear that these feelings obstruct his view of the fact that such a forum can make or break a project like TVOC.

In closing I personally feel that the current board has in the main done the job that it was tasked to do, and it is hoped be able too answer some of the glaring questions currently and in the past asked of it’s decision making process but should at this point consider stepping down in favour of a more dynamic group better suited too the forward operation of 558 as it is clear that currently this board is so detached from the grass roots supporters that confidence in them is draining away and at the very least it is now impinging on the future viability such as it may be of the original aspirations of the project.

The Swinging Monkey

Andrew,

Thank you for your reply.
Despite your assurances, I cannot possibly see how this prject can go forward and succeed under this current management. Public support has, without doubt, been severely damaged to a point where it may be irrecoverable (I hope not) and those in charge now need to step down, now!

I cannot help but think that this has also had a major impact on potential sponsors, who now view the project as a huge bottomless pit in which to throw their money. If I were a major business, then there is no way that I would even consider sponsoring the project. It is leaderless and is out of control. How can they possibly be given any sort of guarantee that they will get a return on their investment? They cannot.

May I conclude with just one final point, that you made in your last posting? You state that 'professional advisors often give advice to do something contrary to a given set of rules and that advice is usually based on the consequences of not doing it being worse than the consequences of doing it'

Given that statement, may I say that these are the very reasons why people are sick to death of this management team. What are they hiding that could be worse than complying with the law?? What is so bad?

I leave you and the other PPrunners to ponder that single point. How bad are the books, and are they so bad that it is less consequential to fail to comply with the law?

Shocking!

TSM

Tim McLelland

There we go - another page of comment, and still no closer to actually doing anything about it.

Gareth surely you can see the irony of your reply? A "group of people trying their hearts out" (sic) - exactly how? Where?

I see no point in repeating what I've already said but I've seen no evidence to suggest my view is wrong. It's a lost cause unless, by some miracle, TVOC succeeds without anybody else's influence.




Incidentally Cypherus his name is Pleming, not Phleming.

bubblesuk

The group of poeple trying thier hearts out are the club members on the 558 forum, The efforts of these poeple have led to the Early Day Motion in parliment, the article in The Mail and in a local paper in scotland.

This may not be much but its a lot more than T.V.O.C have accomplished.
And if you live in the east midlands you may have noticed that 558 is mentioned on a almost daily basis, I noticed last night that 109 or so had joined the club this week, and i have no doubts that they came because of the efforts of club members.

Now im no fan of T.V.O.C and i have my own views on them, but to knock real supporters who are trying their hardest to keep this project going by whatever means they can should be appluaded and has achieved a hell of a lot more than those that knock them.



(hard hat on and awaiting flack)

The Swinging Monkey

Bubbles,

May I just say that I don't think that anyone is laying blame with you at all, nor are they blaming the engineers. The blame lies fairly and squarely with that bunch of people they call 'the management'

IMHO they have shown themselves to be incapable of managing anything, and I hope they step down and resign very soon.

Tim,
You're right, another week and no further on. Isn't it strange how, after all the debate on this forum, on the clubs web forum, phone calls between Andrew and Pleming et al, that this wonderful management team STILL have not had the balls to come on here and answer a single question? What does that tell you?

TSM

andrewmcharlton

Morning TSM et al,

For the avoidance of doubt I wasn't saying in my original post that I am assured the project will succeed or anything of the sort. I was purely referring to the statutory obligations and day to day running as I know it.

Clearly financially its still on a knife edge and I love all the conspiracy theories about who is posting under what name etc, I am sure someone will have spotted one of the TVOC management on the grassy knoll soon or donors implicated in the phoney pharaoh's current outing in the inquest in London.

I am still dubious about its financial viability and have all the same concerns about communications and transparency, my original post was just about their statutory and day to day obligations, nothing more or less.

I thought more of you who expound grand ideas about what should be done would have dropped me a line with the questions you want asked.....email going off this evening.

Thanks

Dis Gruntled

Morning everyone,
Well yet again TVOC try too silence people who try too post on the forum anything that they do not like (sorry i was only on for one night tvoc forumeers).
Think we shall all see in the next week the outcome of the absolute farce that has been the management trying to run TVOC. I as much as anybody would love too see 558 back at the shows but I really cant see it happening with the current state of affairs and all the things happening behind the scenes. Guys I really enjoyed working with you all but surely their must come a time when you have the balls to say sorry we cant cope and stop leading people on. Dont really care if I get slated for this but have sat back for too long now and watched something I loved be ruined by a bunch of amateurs.
I await the abuse lol
Dave
Ps Good luck today Andrew but you do not deserve them back

gareth herts

Why is it ironic that so many people are doing whatever they can to help - whether it be raising funds, contacting local media, writing to their MP etc etc?

Maybe it will turn out to be a lost cause but if everyone takes that attitude now then we might as well all pack up and go home.

Despite all the rubbish going on with the management etc there is still a good deal of support for this project and I think that should be applauded and encouraged, not dismissed.

Dis Gruntled

Andrewmcharlton Sorry did not make it clear was referring to a Mr Edmundson
Dave

The Swinging Monkey

gareth,

it isn't ironic, it's disgraceful!

As you say, there are so many people who have donated, so many people who are helping and so many people who want to help, but they all come up against this big brick wall called 'management'

Until we can get rid of this part of the project, those doing all the donating and work are simply throwing good money after bad, and wasting their time

What was it churchill said, 'never have so many, been so screwed around, by so few' or something like that? I think that applies pretty well here. The tens of thousands who have donated, all the engineers, all the back room staff, and they are all losing out to the top brass of this outfit, as are the whole nation.

And still nothing from Pleming, the man who never looks at PPrune (but contributes just occasionally) Come on Robert, do something or say something for Christ's sake man!

TSM

Andrew, if I thought for a second it would do any good, then I would gladly send you a list of my questions. But to be honest, I have asked them directly of Pleming on more than one occasion (and have yet to receive a reply) I'm know many others have asked the same/similar questions too, and frankly, if he still dosen't know what are concerns are by now, the man is just not interested!

Tim McLelland

I don't disagree with any of the stuff that has been said, but as I keep saying, it completely misses the point! It's just repetition and duplication on a grand scale, none of which does anything to solve that problem. We can slag-off TVOC forever but it achieves nothing. Surely, everything negative which can be said has been said by now, so surely it's not about TVOC's failings, it's about what happens now?

It's fine to say that lots of people are doing their best to generate interest, blah, blah, but it's achieving nothing. There is absolutely no point in different campaigns, petitions or anything else, when nobody takes any notice of them. Obviously, in the finanl analysis, serious people will only deal with the people who are actually handling the project - TVOC, and everything else, no matter how well-intentioned, will be regarded as irrelevant.

So, as I keep saying, the only thing any of us can do, is to put pressure on TVOC to provide a clear and detailed account of where all the money has been spent (on what, and why, and on who, and why), and precisely what is needed from here onwards. Evidently, TVOC have no intention of doing this, so the only way we could make this happen is to put pressure on HLF - they have a big interest in the project, and they can certainly force TVOC to explain their circumstances. In my opinion, it is the only way that TVOC will ever stop their secretive and confusing activities.

But HLF is unlikely to show any interest in getting involved unless someone with some political clout, some media influence or some legal expertise, effectively forces (or embarrasses) HLF into doing something. As I keep saying, there must be someone (or more than one person) out in Pprune-land, who could do this. I think this is what we should be looking for as I'm convinced it's the only way that the project can be saved. I don't accept for a second that fund-raising is going to solve anything, and given that sponsorship hasn't come-forward (and probably never will, if TVOC are perceived as being unprofessional), then the only solution will be to convince HLF that having spent so much on the project, they'd be very foolish not to spend a bit more to get the aircraft into the air.

All the whining and bitching is great for venting frustration but it achieves nothing, and never will. Likewise, petitions, letters to MP's, newspaper stories etc., are all well-intentioned but again, they will achieve nothing. There's only one way that the project can be saved as far as I can see, and that is by following the route I've mentioned. Sadly though, I just don't think it's going to happen because there are far too many people saying far too much, asking too many questions, and embarking on too many ill-conceived "rescue plans" all of which seem very worthy, but are ultimately pointless and counter-productive, because they will be ignored, and TVOC will simply carry-on regardless. They will keep carrying-on, paying no attention to anybody, until someone who actually has some influence and power, steps-in and stops them. Who? Well HLF of course, they're the only hope. And HLF will do nothing unless someone pressures them into doing something. Like I said before, much as it saddens me, I think the project's doomed unless there's a miracle very soon.

Dis Gruntled

Obviously all the talk at the moment is about money and management but you need too look at the bigger picture.
1. How is the £150k going too help if tvoc do not have the auths to do the work on a u/s aircraft ( only allowed to do anti-dets)
2. How can they complete the test flights if the engineers from MA who have the auths are away most of March and April on courses and detatchments, surely thats 2 more months of money needed which at the current rate is anywhere between 50 and 75 thousand a month depending on the pleas that you read.