Vulcan XH 558 Threads (merged)
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Oh dear....what a sad, tatty thread this is turning into.
I kept my head down whilst the Vulcan thing was on-going, but after the first flight, I got out my wallet and made a pledge. Until it flies again, there will be no coin of the realm eminating from me.
It strikes me that there are significant financially questionable undertones associated with this project. Maybe sight of the official accounts would do nobody any good.
Who knows.
I kept my head down whilst the Vulcan thing was on-going, but after the first flight, I got out my wallet and made a pledge. Until it flies again, there will be no coin of the realm eminating from me.
It strikes me that there are significant financially questionable undertones associated with this project. Maybe sight of the official accounts would do nobody any good.
Who knows.
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I heard that Marshalls have wiped the massive debt owed to them as well. I think the public should be able to view a complete list of exactly what all the money has been spent on, including lottery funds, especially as they are asking for yet more money.
But then it really is pointless any of us having opinions on the project or asking for information because it will not be forthcoming, not while there is stuff to hide.
But then it really is pointless any of us having opinions on the project or asking for information because it will not be forthcoming, not while there is stuff to hide.
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But then it really is pointless any of us having opinions on the project or asking for information because it will not be forthcoming, not while there is stuff to hide
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Things must be bad now - even the last public voice of TVOC has gone 'deep and silent'
Airsound, where are you?? Why no comment? Have you seen the light?
Oh dear, how sad, never mind.
Airsound, where are you?? Why no comment? Have you seen the light?
Oh dear, how sad, never mind.
TSM - I do have another life, and I do have to earn my living. I am not being paid by VOC or VTTS, or VTST if you want to call it that.
Nevertheless, because I do believe that this is a very worthwhile cause, I am trying to get people to throw some light on some of the questions being posed.
Aside from anything else, I seem to be virtually the only person posting at the moment who has anything good to say about the project. Which means that it is very hard to keep up with the volume of viciously 'anti' posts, many of which contain significant inaccuracies that fall within my knowledge. But I personally do not have time to deal with them all.
I am doing my best - but it's pretty depressing trying to deal with all you guys at the same time. And I think that your attitude in particular, TSM, is not particularly helpful. But then, it never has been.
airsound
Nevertheless, because I do believe that this is a very worthwhile cause, I am trying to get people to throw some light on some of the questions being posed.
Aside from anything else, I seem to be virtually the only person posting at the moment who has anything good to say about the project. Which means that it is very hard to keep up with the volume of viciously 'anti' posts, many of which contain significant inaccuracies that fall within my knowledge. But I personally do not have time to deal with them all.
I am doing my best - but it's pretty depressing trying to deal with all you guys at the same time. And I think that your attitude in particular, TSM, is not particularly helpful. But then, it never has been.
airsound
Last edited by airsound; 27th Feb 2008 at 08:02. Reason: punctuation
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airsound,
Thank you for that, and it's good to have you back!
Of course, if there are so many 'significant inaccuracies that fall within my knowledge' then we are looking forward to you explaining them all away to us and reassuring us that everything is fine and dandy in TVOC world. Sadly, you are the only one saying anything good about the project, because you are the only one saying anything about the project, and even that is pretty little!! Maybe you could have a word with your good friend Pleming, and ask him to say something 'good' about the project eh?
I note that you have the time to, yet again, pass comment on my 'anti' attitude, but can find no time to answer any of the searching questions posed by other members on this forum. Not to worry, I am certain that you will find the time soon to tell exactly what is going on, how great things are, and what a wonderful job everyone is doing. We all look forward to that.
It would be nice to hear it from Pleming or another 'official' Brunters spokesperson, but as we know, they 'don't do that' do they?
Anyway, like everyone else here, I look forward to your next explanation in due course.
Best wishes
TSM
Thank you for that, and it's good to have you back!
Of course, if there are so many 'significant inaccuracies that fall within my knowledge' then we are looking forward to you explaining them all away to us and reassuring us that everything is fine and dandy in TVOC world. Sadly, you are the only one saying anything good about the project, because you are the only one saying anything about the project, and even that is pretty little!! Maybe you could have a word with your good friend Pleming, and ask him to say something 'good' about the project eh?
I note that you have the time to, yet again, pass comment on my 'anti' attitude, but can find no time to answer any of the searching questions posed by other members on this forum. Not to worry, I am certain that you will find the time soon to tell exactly what is going on, how great things are, and what a wonderful job everyone is doing. We all look forward to that.
It would be nice to hear it from Pleming or another 'official' Brunters spokesperson, but as we know, they 'don't do that' do they?
Anyway, like everyone else here, I look forward to your next explanation in due course.
Best wishes
TSM
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Airsound
I think you are missing the point here.
I don't there is many (if any) posting here that is 'anti' in the respect of seeing this wonderful aircraft flying on the airshow circuit again.
What is important is the fact that a large number of us posting here have donated substantion sums to this project, not only in the initial stages, but also on subsequent occasions when completion looked very much in doubt.
So when my teenage son asks me what has happened to his hard earned paper round money that he willingly sent to TVOC, I have to tell him that I have'nt got a clue because none of us know what is happening. So we have to assume that no news is bad news in this case. Are you really surprised that people are getting extremely hacked off?
Dak
I think you are missing the point here.
I don't there is many (if any) posting here that is 'anti' in the respect of seeing this wonderful aircraft flying on the airshow circuit again.
What is important is the fact that a large number of us posting here have donated substantion sums to this project, not only in the initial stages, but also on subsequent occasions when completion looked very much in doubt.
So when my teenage son asks me what has happened to his hard earned paper round money that he willingly sent to TVOC, I have to tell him that I have'nt got a clue because none of us know what is happening. So we have to assume that no news is bad news in this case. Are you really surprised that people are getting extremely hacked off?
Dak
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Look at the figures
The TVOC needs 150k to carry on until the end of March (85k for the engineering company to send people to certify the aircraft fit for flight and 70k to operate the TVOC for 1 month). The TVOC then needs 350k + to get the aircraft display certified (by the 1st June)
How much money is required after June 1st ? How much money do they owe companies for all the work they have carried out to achieve first flight ? I know others who want the aircraft to fly but could never work out the viability of the project regarding funding.
If the TVOC get the money to flight the aircraft, it would be wise to land it at Duxford or somewhere else similar as i don't think it will ever fly again after the end of March, lets face it nobody is interested anymore !
How much money is required after June 1st ? How much money do they owe companies for all the work they have carried out to achieve first flight ? I know others who want the aircraft to fly but could never work out the viability of the project regarding funding.
If the TVOC get the money to flight the aircraft, it would be wise to land it at Duxford or somewhere else similar as i don't think it will ever fly again after the end of March, lets face it nobody is interested anymore !
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The Scoop
Ok folks, here is the scoop.....
At the weekend I sent a Freedo of Information request to the Charities Commision and the HLF to request such details as we may be entitled to. I also, as a matter of courtesy copied in the PR company for TVOC and to Rusty Drewett.
To my amazement, Dr Pleming called me on Monday evening and we chatted for about an hour or so. I put all of the points to him that have been raised on this forum and he gave me the benefit of his opinions and gave substantive answers to most of the questions posed.
Some of the responses he gave were in confidence due to commercial issues and also some could be deemed as legally priviledged as they refer to various confidential arrangements.
I won't disclose those points as I gave my word they would remain confidential.
I work in the legal profession and having listened to the answers I was given I would agree with Dr Pleming on the requirement for confidentiality on those points and I am sure they will not and should not ever see the light of day. All I can say publicly is that if you know what I was advised, and you accept it, you would be of the opinion as I am, that whilst there may be some serious communications issues there is no impropriety whatsoever and the actions taken by TVOC in respect of the day to day running of the trust and their statutory obligations are correct.
Dr Pleming was kind enough to invite suggestions on how to improve the communications and said he would take on board on suggestions I may wish to make and discuss them with the trustees and colleagues alike.
I don't want this to be just my opinions and it would seem appropriate for anyone who has a practical and workable suggestion as to how to improve communications and disclosure, please contact me and I will consolidate them all into one email to Dr Pleming for his consideration and report back on any responses that don't breach confidentiality.
My conclusions at the end of my chat with Dr Pleming were that the TVOC has made proper decisions as to its statutory obligations, there does seem to be some substantive progress and improvements in their position and that with the right communications in place anyone who longs to see 558 fly again would be sufficiently re-assured to continue supporting the project.
I can't and wont elaborate on what was explained to me but having been ultra sceptical at times I am re-assured. Please PM me any thoughts or ideas and I will make sure they are passed on expeditiously.
Finally, a thank you to Dr Pleming for responding so quickly and it shows that they do take their obligations seriously, despite poor PR and appearances. Well done that man.
At the weekend I sent a Freedo of Information request to the Charities Commision and the HLF to request such details as we may be entitled to. I also, as a matter of courtesy copied in the PR company for TVOC and to Rusty Drewett.
To my amazement, Dr Pleming called me on Monday evening and we chatted for about an hour or so. I put all of the points to him that have been raised on this forum and he gave me the benefit of his opinions and gave substantive answers to most of the questions posed.
Some of the responses he gave were in confidence due to commercial issues and also some could be deemed as legally priviledged as they refer to various confidential arrangements.
I won't disclose those points as I gave my word they would remain confidential.
I work in the legal profession and having listened to the answers I was given I would agree with Dr Pleming on the requirement for confidentiality on those points and I am sure they will not and should not ever see the light of day. All I can say publicly is that if you know what I was advised, and you accept it, you would be of the opinion as I am, that whilst there may be some serious communications issues there is no impropriety whatsoever and the actions taken by TVOC in respect of the day to day running of the trust and their statutory obligations are correct.
Dr Pleming was kind enough to invite suggestions on how to improve the communications and said he would take on board on suggestions I may wish to make and discuss them with the trustees and colleagues alike.
I don't want this to be just my opinions and it would seem appropriate for anyone who has a practical and workable suggestion as to how to improve communications and disclosure, please contact me and I will consolidate them all into one email to Dr Pleming for his consideration and report back on any responses that don't breach confidentiality.
My conclusions at the end of my chat with Dr Pleming were that the TVOC has made proper decisions as to its statutory obligations, there does seem to be some substantive progress and improvements in their position and that with the right communications in place anyone who longs to see 558 fly again would be sufficiently re-assured to continue supporting the project.
I can't and wont elaborate on what was explained to me but having been ultra sceptical at times I am re-assured. Please PM me any thoughts or ideas and I will make sure they are passed on expeditiously.
Finally, a thank you to Dr Pleming for responding so quickly and it shows that they do take their obligations seriously, despite poor PR and appearances. Well done that man.
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Can they not ask the National Lottery for funding ?
The lotto gives millions to completely utter crap projects every year , this is a worthwhile thing that im sure 95% of British would love to see airborne again. Maybe they have already got some in that case forget this post
The lotto gives millions to completely utter crap projects every year , this is a worthwhile thing that im sure 95% of British would love to see airborne again. Maybe they have already got some in that case forget this post
Red On, Green On
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Can they not ask the National Lottery for funding ?
magnersdrinker
95%, I think that figure is way, way too large. The vast majority of the British public couldn't give a flying **** if the Vulcan ever flies again. It's people like you and me that have an avid interest in aviation (nostalgia in my case, having serviced them in the past) that want to see the aircraft back in the sky.
95%, I think that figure is way, way too large. The vast majority of the British public couldn't give a flying **** if the Vulcan ever flies again. It's people like you and me that have an avid interest in aviation (nostalgia in my case, having serviced them in the past) that want to see the aircraft back in the sky.
Red On, Green On
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95% of British would love to see airborne again
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Andrew,
What is the Scoopp??
Whilst I am delighted that Pleming contacted you and gave an explantion as to what is going on, I am equally dissapointed that you have chosen not to enlighten any of us here about anything at all! Was the whole conversation/explanation confidential, because you say that only some of the responces were in confidence? And with respect, why were you given access to privilaged information that the rest of us can't have or know about?
Has your request under the FOI act gone through and do you intend to publish the results here?
It is alright you now telling us that you have been convinced that things are OK, but the rest of us would still like to have some answers, something you were in full agreeance with not so very long ago! What has changed?
When I saw your heading 'scoop' I was truly expecting some hard facts and answers to some of our questions. Instead, I find that we are no further forward and probably even more confused than before.
So, whats the story then Andrew?? What is your scoop?
Do tell us, please!
TSM
What is the Scoopp??
Whilst I am delighted that Pleming contacted you and gave an explantion as to what is going on, I am equally dissapointed that you have chosen not to enlighten any of us here about anything at all! Was the whole conversation/explanation confidential, because you say that only some of the responces were in confidence? And with respect, why were you given access to privilaged information that the rest of us can't have or know about?
Has your request under the FOI act gone through and do you intend to publish the results here?
It is alright you now telling us that you have been convinced that things are OK, but the rest of us would still like to have some answers, something you were in full agreeance with not so very long ago! What has changed?
When I saw your heading 'scoop' I was truly expecting some hard facts and answers to some of our questions. Instead, I find that we are no further forward and probably even more confused than before.
So, whats the story then Andrew?? What is your scoop?
Do tell us, please!
TSM
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Flying the Green Flag: Bio Fuel Vulcan takes to the skies ?
Perhaps someone should ask Virgin to use it for bio fuel testing (a must see Vulcan picture)
I do find vickv's new set of figures interesting, from a financial bottomless-pit point-of-view. (Post # 729)
Re a Duxford alternative landing ground: is a LDA of 1219m for RWY 24, or 1222m for a RWY 06 arrival, sufficient for a Vulcan, bearing in mind that the adjacent M11 motorway, which cuts through the original runway, was constructed after the arrival of all the large jets now in residence.
I do find vickv's new set of figures interesting, from a financial bottomless-pit point-of-view. (Post # 729)
Re a Duxford alternative landing ground: is a LDA of 1219m for RWY 24, or 1222m for a RWY 06 arrival, sufficient for a Vulcan, bearing in mind that the adjacent M11 motorway, which cuts through the original runway, was constructed after the arrival of all the large jets now in residence.
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andrews info
swinging monkey
i have pm andrew with a few questions on the real state oh 558 to see what mr plemmings versions of events are
depending on the reply from him i will then decide to enlighten people on a few snippits theat i know are true
yes for tvoc i am who u think i am i will not hide
been called a liar and conspiritor in the demise of tvoc (we got it flying its up to you to keep it there )and not been allowed to give my defence to you at the meeting about the suspension is bang out of order
i will not get enbroiled in back stabbing and a slagging match but free speech will be offered
i have pm andrew with a few questions on the real state oh 558 to see what mr plemmings versions of events are
depending on the reply from him i will then decide to enlighten people on a few snippits theat i know are true
yes for tvoc i am who u think i am i will not hide
been called a liar and conspiritor in the demise of tvoc (we got it flying its up to you to keep it there )and not been allowed to give my defence to you at the meeting about the suspension is bang out of order
i will not get enbroiled in back stabbing and a slagging match but free speech will be offered
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The next phase in the new life of XH558 takes the aircraft from today up to its first public display. In funding terms, we estimate that it will cost about £575,000 to meet our target of returning her to public display on 1st June, an amount which is consistent with our estimated gross annual running costs of about £1.6million
Whilst the largest proportion of the £575,000 pays for the monthly £70,000 baseline costs of salaries and other vital items, the steepest part of the new challenge is the upfront outlay of £85,000 required now to restart the test flight programme. The costs of the display work-up flights and aviation insurance are the other major elements making up the total.
Isnt it amazing how now £150k seems to be the final hurdle (take note bubbles)
Quotes from Dr Pleming tvoc website
Last edited by Dis Gruntled; 27th Feb 2008 at 18:46. Reason: quote
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[ (a must see Vulcan picture) ]
Wow - must have filled up at the diesel pump by mistake!
Or did the early ones run on coal?
Wow - must have filled up at the diesel pump by mistake!
Or did the early ones run on coal?
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TSM,
Stay calm !
Not everything that was said was confidential far from it. The gist of the discussion was that on advice from professionals they have not been able to fulfill certain statutory filing requirements. The advice that was given to TVOC is obviously confidential but it isn't a question of not having any accounts or being negligent in not filing them.
HLF are fully engaged in the ongoing management of the project and are monitoring everything which is spent and apparently the budgetary forecasts and cashflows.
I have asked HLF and the CC under the FOI to provide copies of minutes, notes, correspondence, applications et al which are not commercially confidential and I will share that with everyone, unedited when I get it. I don't know what the timescales will be but I am happy to keep everyone in the loop.
I didn't get any priviledged access, I don't think so anyway. I just emailed and asked questions and they (Dr Pleming) then called me. Ask and ye shall find. I did previously email in frustration many moons ago when the illustrious Felicity was at the helm and got no response so I suspect there is a change of attitude.
It was clear that none of the TVOC top brass read PPrune and I got the distinct impression that they were unaware of the groundswell of opinion.
It was acknowledged by Dr Pleming that they should be doing better on their communications and he was genuinely interested in learning what the donating public wanted and asked me to let him have thoughts in an email, hence opening it up to everyone.
I criticised the whole lack of accountability, transparency and the pass the hat mentality and suggested some more frank (within whatever legal / confidential limits) and regular updates would go a long way to assuage concerns and transparency as to finances. I was told that subsequent to first flight the budget was much more definable and subject to funding there should be a lot less hidden nasties although they can't be eliminated totally.
Dr Pleming said that he felt that setting smaller reachable financial milestones was important to keep things moving step by step rather than setting a long term "we need £x million" which would turn everyone off and the arrival of any significant sponsors might reduce / vary that and make the next milestones easier, so no need to panic everyone right from the off. I don't agree with that and for the avoidance of doubt I still believe that communications have been massively mismanaged and transparency and frankness with full compliance and disclosure is essential.
I am convinced though that it is worth fighting for and that the lack of accounts etc is not through any neglect of wanton ommission but on professional advice.
We have a line of communication now open and I would hope that if you have ideas of what you want to see and hear let me know and I will pass it all on to see if something can be done to improve things.
I know a couple of you have been kind enough to email me today and chat on the phone, thank you. Any questions you want asked, let me know. As soon as I have the FOI responses I will post them for you to read and send to anyone who wants them.
Stay calm !
Not everything that was said was confidential far from it. The gist of the discussion was that on advice from professionals they have not been able to fulfill certain statutory filing requirements. The advice that was given to TVOC is obviously confidential but it isn't a question of not having any accounts or being negligent in not filing them.
HLF are fully engaged in the ongoing management of the project and are monitoring everything which is spent and apparently the budgetary forecasts and cashflows.
I have asked HLF and the CC under the FOI to provide copies of minutes, notes, correspondence, applications et al which are not commercially confidential and I will share that with everyone, unedited when I get it. I don't know what the timescales will be but I am happy to keep everyone in the loop.
I didn't get any priviledged access, I don't think so anyway. I just emailed and asked questions and they (Dr Pleming) then called me. Ask and ye shall find. I did previously email in frustration many moons ago when the illustrious Felicity was at the helm and got no response so I suspect there is a change of attitude.
It was clear that none of the TVOC top brass read PPrune and I got the distinct impression that they were unaware of the groundswell of opinion.
It was acknowledged by Dr Pleming that they should be doing better on their communications and he was genuinely interested in learning what the donating public wanted and asked me to let him have thoughts in an email, hence opening it up to everyone.
I criticised the whole lack of accountability, transparency and the pass the hat mentality and suggested some more frank (within whatever legal / confidential limits) and regular updates would go a long way to assuage concerns and transparency as to finances. I was told that subsequent to first flight the budget was much more definable and subject to funding there should be a lot less hidden nasties although they can't be eliminated totally.
Dr Pleming said that he felt that setting smaller reachable financial milestones was important to keep things moving step by step rather than setting a long term "we need £x million" which would turn everyone off and the arrival of any significant sponsors might reduce / vary that and make the next milestones easier, so no need to panic everyone right from the off. I don't agree with that and for the avoidance of doubt I still believe that communications have been massively mismanaged and transparency and frankness with full compliance and disclosure is essential.
I am convinced though that it is worth fighting for and that the lack of accounts etc is not through any neglect of wanton ommission but on professional advice.
We have a line of communication now open and I would hope that if you have ideas of what you want to see and hear let me know and I will pass it all on to see if something can be done to improve things.
I know a couple of you have been kind enough to email me today and chat on the phone, thank you. Any questions you want asked, let me know. As soon as I have the FOI responses I will post them for you to read and send to anyone who wants them.