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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

blubak 31st Jan 2021 07:56


Originally Posted by Dannyboy39 (Post 10980097)
Of course in-migration is a vote winner everywhere... not! Especially in a place like Australia! As I say, by October everyone in both countries should have protection. And then at that point, what is the problem?

Many people might have protection but unless community spread stops there is no chance of our international border being open without a guarantee that the people being allowed in either have a test with a negative result or go into quarantine at their own expense.
Nobody knows what it going to happen as 2021 progresses but 1 thing for sure is that the aus govt are not going to risk covid being brought here.
That is not saying we will not get cases(perth has 1 now) but as far as uncontrolled international borders go i think its very wise you having refundable hotel accomodation & from what i have been reading BA have suspended services to oz for many months.
Overseas residents may think the oz government are crazy imposing restrictions such as those in place now but i think you will find a majority of people here support what is in place & for those of us in victoria we are very aware of what a large outbreak does to our everyday freedom & on that point i have no issue with stating our govt run hotel quarantine caused it but it is us(the residents) who have buckled down to get where we are now & in all honesty overseas visitors are not high on our priority list.
We appreciate you wanting to come here & spend money however in 2021 that may not happen..

Keg 31st Jan 2021 08:04

I was in WA in December in that short period that NSW people were allowed to roam free. It was amazing seeing the lack of social distancing going on at pubs around the city. Lots of of tracking people via the WA government app they require everyone to have so you’d think their contact tracing would be spot on but scratch below the surface and it was complacency central.

WA has had 8 months to put in place it’s processes to deal with what was always inevitable. It appears they’ve done SFA given the shortage of masks in all supermarkets.

Some comparisons with NSW and the most recent outbreak. NSW ‘locked down’ the northern beaches for a bunch of days due to a couple of super spreader events. Meanwhile the rest of the city masked up, checked in our app everywhere we went including gyms, cafes, restaurants, etc, socially distanced, and got on with life. Six weeks later we’ve had zero Covid for 14 days. Even when locked down my understanding the northern beaches residents could still exercise for as long as they liked, weren’t required to wear masks whilst doing so, and were allowed to do so with others. WA has said one hour for exercise, (why? What does it matter if someone exercises outdoors for three hours), with one other person, and locked people down who are literally hundreds of km away from the outbreak.

What. A. Joke. Talk about getting the government you deserve!

NumptyAussie 31st Jan 2021 08:11


Originally Posted by goodonyamate (Post 10980100)
Re WA, as much as I too want to say [email protected]&k you mcgoose, It was always going to happen, my hope now is that the lockdown contains it, and we can all get back to work soon.

maybe now you won’t be such a smug prick.

best of luck to those in WA

I am not so sure that he was smug prick, possibly steadfast in his attempt to keep the virus from spreading in a state with a small population that is distributed over a massive area (and with its tertiary hospitals in the metropolitan area), but I concur with the prick sentiment.

Keg 31st Jan 2021 08:15

Now that WA has had community spread, I wonder if they’ll still insist on other jurisdictions such as NSW getting to 28 days before they open up to us?

Dannyboy39 31st Jan 2021 08:25


Originally Posted by blubak (Post 10980106)
Many people might have protection but unless community spread stops there is no chance of our international border being open without a guarantee that the people being allowed in either have a test with a negative result or go into quarantine at their own expense.
Nobody knows what it going to happen as 2021 progresses but 1 thing for sure is that the aus govt are not going to risk covid being brought here.
That is not saying we will not get cases(perth has 1 now) but as far as uncontrolled international borders go i think its very wise you having refundable hotel accomodation & from what i have been reading BA have suspended services to oz for many months.
Overseas residents may think the oz government are crazy imposing restrictions such as those in place now but i think you will find a majority of people here support what is in place & for those of us in victoria we are very aware of what a large outbreak does to our everyday freedom & on that point i have no issue with stating our govt run hotel quarantine caused it but it is us(the residents) who have buckled down to get where we are now & in all honesty overseas visitors are not high on our priority list.
We appreciate you wanting to come here & spend money however in 2021 that may not happen..

I do wonder what the A380 drivers and all of the other long haulers are thinking at the moment... they're probably too busy doing their duty being Amazon delivery drivers by now.

I think the Australian response has been laudable, but whilst it is fashionable to bring up the drawbridge to Johnny Foreigner with any sign of Covid, surely it is completely unsustainable in the long term. How is locking down a whole city for ONE case a sustainable and measured response, with the armory of testing, contact tracing and vaccines. I say that as a member of UK Labour. That said, looking on the echo chamber that is Twitter, it seems to have been lapped up.

It is so endemic in the global population, there is widespread medical agreement that it'll become a seasonal illness akin to the flu, needing top up vaccination.

Look at NZ - strictest of strict quarantine rules, someone does 14 days in the stalag and STILL gets sick. You can't keep it out forever I hate to say.

currawong 31st Jan 2021 08:28

All of which takes us further away from getting back to or close to normal.


bolthead 31st Jan 2021 08:42

I'm no fan, but the deputy NSW premier was on the money when he said words to the effect of - McGowan better be careful because it might bite him on the bum! No daily testing for guards arranged for 20 days after national decision to do it. Well done.

dr dre 31st Jan 2021 08:54


Originally Posted by jrfsp (Post 10980063)
However, how many further escapes from HQ will we have this year??? How much do these lockdowns costs? Where is Socmo?

This is what epidemiologists were saying in November last year, since then we’ve had 2 more hotel outbreaks and nothing has been changed:

South Australian cluster shows we need to stop hotel quarantine in cities: epidemiologist


Infectious diseases expert and epidemiologist Mary-Louise McLaws told Virginia Trioli the Adelaide cluster shows why hotel quarantine programs should be shut down in favour of purpose built quarantine stations.
"Hotel quarantines were a great idea to get Australians and residents back home, but it should only have been an interim idea," Professor McLaws said.
"We do need to start thinking about a purpose built environment."

South Australia’s COVID outbreak - Adrian Esterman Professor of Biostatistics and Epidemiology, University of South Australia


In a situation like this, we should ask why we continue to operate high-risk quarantine hotels in the middle of a city. It would be much safer to quarantine people away from communities, like we did on Christmas Island earlier in the pandemic.
This will not be the last hotel outbreak before a critical level of vaccination is reached.

Ragnor 31st Jan 2021 09:18

I bet we don’t see huge lines of ppl getting tested in Perth tomorrow. Do they even know how to set up testing clinic and able to turn a test around in less than 24hrs. Mr Barilaro will be having a little chuckle to himself now.

itsnotthatbloodyhard 31st Jan 2021 09:34

I don’t know whether McGowan’s a smug prick or not, but someone over there certainly is. This really hasn’t aged well, has it?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ba37a4804.jpeg

WipperSnapper 31st Jan 2021 09:54


Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 10980155)
I bet we don’t see huge lines of ppl getting tested in Perth tomorrow. Do they even know how to set up testing clinic and able to turn a test around in less than 24hrs. Mr Barilaro will be having a little chuckle to himself now.

Wow the hatred towards West Australians is ridiculous. It's 38 degrees here today and the hospital closest to us has a line of people outside in the sun around the corner and down the street. People are responding and getting tested, same as everywhere else when there's been an outbreak.

I agree there is a ridiculous amount of "she'll be right, it ain't here" by a large proportion of the community here. They are also the people who didn't buy masks when this thing hit, even as recent as when Brisbane locked down McGowan was still telling people to buy masks because we will need them if we get an outbreak. Why would shops stock them here if people aren't buying them? They aren't government run.

As recent as yesterday's press conference he was saying hotel quarantine should be a Federal run program at remote locations but Scomo doesn't want that so we have to deal with the situation as best we can. He comes across smug and a lot of people that I interact with have been saying it's only a matter of time until we get a case and he will get slaughtered by the east coast media for the way he is carrying on.

What's our alternative though? He was elected well before this mess, the opposition government has stood behind him on border closures since about May last year and their party is an absolute shambles?

compressor stall 31st Jan 2021 10:20

WS - I guess you haven't repeatedly been abused by the WA public as you walk along the street in your mask to your crew transport or the COVID test?

To be fair it did happen in QLD a bit, but that was always at nighttime and they were pissed on XXXX at the bar over the road from the hotel. Not at lunchtime, nor repeatedly.

KRviator 31st Jan 2021 10:20


Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 10980155)
I bet we don’t see huge lines of ppl getting tested in Perth tomorrow. Do they even know how to set up testing clinic and able to turn a test around in less than 24hrs. Mr Barilaro will be having a little chuckle to himself now.

Oh, they have testing clinics - that appear to only be able to handle 500 (no, there's not a missing '0') on a normal day. Here's yet another of McGoose's examples of excellence...


Frustration as WA's COVID clinics struggle
Premier Mark McGowan says almost 2000 people presented at clinics on Thursday, about four times the usual daily number. source
Yesiree! Here's the gold standard folks! 2,000 tests a day and you have to turn people away in WA. What did NSW get around the same time? Nearly 70,000 tests done in a single day?!?

And here's another one - from only a few minutes ago!

By about 4.30pm, the clinic on Beaufort Street had run out of COVID-19 testing swabs as people flooded in after Premier Mark McGowan announced there was community spread from a nearby Maylands resident.source
Nothing quite like a testing centre with no test kits, is there?

WingNut60 31st Jan 2021 10:30


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 10980054)
I think we can see what he meant.

If you're going to quote someone, and indeed quote them in bolded script, then you need to be able to substantiate your quote.

Otherwise you're simply telling lies to emphasise your contention.

WingNut60 31st Jan 2021 10:32


Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 10980081)
WA are so unprepared for this its hilarious.

What makes you think that??

Ragnor 31st Jan 2021 10:38

The above link for starters.

WingNut60 31st Jan 2021 10:41


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10980174)
Yesiree! Here's the gold standard folks! 2,000 tests a day and you have to turn people away in WA. What did NSW get around the same time? Nearly 70,000 tests done in a single day?!?

Because on Thursday, there was no known Covid in the wild in WA and had not been for 38 weeks.
Why even 2000 people presented for testing is beyond me.

Different this afternoon - within hours of the announcements being made.

Ladloy 31st Jan 2021 10:46


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10980192)
Because on Thursday, there was no known Covid in the wild in WA and had not been for 38 weeks.
Why even 2000 people presented for testing is beyond me.

Different this afternoon - within hours of the announcements being made.

​​​​​​This is the right response. They have kept the virus out of the community for so long that their dream run doesn't require widespread testing like its counterparts. McGowan has also made the recommendation to close the borders to WA, in line with his own rules.

aussieflyboy 31st Jan 2021 11:48


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 10980192)
Why even 2000 people presented for testing is beyond me.

If you’ve been in QLD, NSW and VIC your required to get tested on day 11 after your return - this is what most of those tests are - not sick people

SOPS 31st Jan 2021 11:58

It amazes me to see the joy people are
heaving at seeing an outbreak in WA. I thought you all wanted the borders to open, so that things can go back to “normal”,and you can go flying again.

We get an event in WA, that has the potential to shut borders hard again, and you could not be happier. It’s very strange.

( remember, the individual in question, could have spread it to someone that has already flown to the Eastern States and it is currently spreading in the east.. I hope that’s not the case.)

Keg 31st Jan 2021 12:10


Originally Posted by WipperSnapper (Post 10980166)
As recent as yesterday's press conference he was saying hotel quarantine should be a Federal run program at remote locations...

It’s one of the most idiotic proposals known to man kind. Introduces a whole bunch of risk transferring people with Covid from their point of arrival vast distances by bus, or air and then bus, to a remote location. Then you don’t have the critical mass of support workers required to run a proper quarantine system and need to ship people in. You also don’t have the same level of medical support available if someone gets seriously crook. And if it does get out into the community in that ‘remote location’ you then have to shut down that entire quarantine facility because the odds are you don’t have any surge capability of other staff to come in and take the place of those staff now in isolation.

compressor stall 31st Jan 2021 12:10

SOPS - No joy from me for reasons of jobs, economy and social life. However having had random strangers in Perth CBD abuse and yell at my crew on many occasions over the past 7 months as we were wearing masks (sometimes in uniform and sometimes without) I can't help but feel a little bit of karma striking down those individuals.

currawong 31st Jan 2021 12:29


Originally Posted by compressor stall (Post 10980255)
SOPS - No joy from me for reasons of jobs, economy and social life. However having had random strangers in Perth CBD abuse and yell at my crew on many occasions over the past 7 months as we were wearing masks (sometimes in uniform and sometimes without) I can't help but feel a little bit of karma striking down those individuals.

Would you characterise Victorians on the basis of the actions of the sovereign citizen movement?

Neither would I.

601 31st Jan 2021 12:44


Could be this hotel quarantine worker had been working more than 1 job,isnt that a big no no.
Second job as a ride share driver no less

compressor stall 31st Jan 2021 13:05


Originally Posted by currawong (Post 10980271)
Would you characterise Victorians on the basis of the actions of the sovereign citizen movement?

Neither would I.

No of course not and you know it. Did you notice my feelings were directed and limited to “those individuals” who by the way on every occasion did not appear “fringe” in any way. From the times we understood the words, the abuse was about going back east, not that COVID is a myth.

I chose not to direct any feelings of karma towards the two policemen on a compliance check who berated the sleeping crew for not answering their doors at lunchtime in a timely manner when the crew had arrived at dawn and were leaving that evening. Nor any other people involved in other “interesting” WA COVID experiences too numerous to list.

dr dre 31st Jan 2021 13:29


Originally Posted by Keg (Post 10980254)
It’s one of the most idiotic proposals known to man kind.

"one of the most idiotic proposals known to man kind"? Like I posted above, multiple prominent Australian epidemiologists were calling for a remote Quarantine program last year. This was also suggested in the National Review of Hotel Quarantine by the AHPPC last year:

The Australian Government has the capability to declare a human health response zone, as seen with evacuations of early quarantine cohorts to national facilities or State/Territory facilities gazetted for this purpose, including the Learmonth RAAF base or immigration detention facilities, and the Northern Territory’s Howard Springs facility


Introduces a whole bunch of risk transferring people with Covid from their point of arrival vast distances by bus, or air and then bus, to a remote location.
Not if you fly them directly there. There's plenty of remote airports with runways capable of international widebody flights in this country. Temporary accommodation, medical and CIQ can be constructed quickly if we have the will to do it.


Then you don’t have the critical mass of support workers required to run a proper quarantine system and need to ship people in.
The mining industry gets around this by paying their workers good money. Maybe they could work 2 weeks on, 2 weeks quarantine, 2 weeks off for a few months? Yes it would be expensive, but far less than the cost of all these major city outbreaks.


You also don’t have the same level of medical support available if someone gets seriously crook.
Temporary medical support at the remote location, aeromedical evacuation on standby to more intensive care facilities as well. Yes this does introduce a risk to a major city, but far far less than quarantining all travelers in a major city rather than a solitary case or two.


And if it does get out into the community in that ‘remote location’ you then have to shut down that entire quarantine facility because the odds are you don’t have any surge capability of other staff to come in and take the place of those staff now in isolation.
It would be a remote location where personnel are confined from outside communities. Surge capability would come at a cost but again far less than all these capital city breakouts that are detrimental to the economy.

I'm sure if this nation's professionals put their minds together (with the necessary funding) they could come up with workable solutions. Problem is the government just doesn't want to spend the money, or they're thinking the vaccine rollout is close enough now that minor outbreaks won't pose a large scale threat soon.

If you ask me housing international arrivals smack bang in the middle of major cities is an idiotic idea.

nonsense 31st Jan 2021 15:57


Originally Posted by Keg (Post 10980108)
I was in WA in December in that short period that NSW people were allowed to roam free. It was amazing seeing the lack of social distancing going on at pubs around the city.

Curiously I was in Sydney around the same time (2nd week of December), where I was also amazed at the lack of masks or distancing compared to Melbourne!

zanthrus 31st Jan 2021 16:01

An outbreak of 1. What a load of shit!
F U McCLown! I will not comply. Get F#%Ked!

aviation_enthus 31st Jan 2021 16:03


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 10980241)
It amazes me to see the joy people are
heaving at seeing an outbreak in WA. I thought you all wanted the borders to open, so that things can go back to “normal”,and you can go flying again.

We get an event in WA, that has the potential to shut borders hard again, and you could not be happier. It’s very strange.

( remember, the individual in question, could have spread it to someone that has already flown to the Eastern States and it is currently spreading in the east.. I hope that’s not the case.)

Probably has something to do with the condescending attitude from the WA Premier in particular towards all the eastern states when they’ve had an outbreak.....

Even watching from overseas (as I am), most expat Aussies were waiting for WA to cop it. McGowan will be tested now, so his actions better back up all the talk of the last few months!!

The only certainty in this pandemic is if you haven’t had another outbreak yet it’s only a matter of time!!

SOPS 31st Jan 2021 18:42


Originally Posted by zanthrus (Post 10980414)
An outbreak of 1. What a load of shit!
F U McCLown! I will not comply. Get F#%Ked!

And if it breaks out.. and we get locked down for a 100 days and you can’t fly, .. you will be ok with that?

goodonyamate 31st Jan 2021 20:09


Originally Posted by aviation_enthus (Post 10980417)
Probably has something to do with the condescending attitude from the WA Premier in particular towards all the eastern states when they’ve had an outbreak.....

and from a few of the WA posters here.....

yep there’s a little bit of karma for being such pricks to the rest of Australia. Especially those with the belief that WAxit is a real thing and you’d survive or even prosper once off the funding of the rest of us. To you, I say ‘eat it’.

to the rest of WA, it sucks, 5 days will be over before you know it. Do some stuff around the house, hang with the kids, and let’s get back to work ASAP.

blubak 31st Jan 2021 21:44


Originally Posted by nonsense (Post 10980410)
Curiously I was in Sydney around the same time (2nd week of December), where I was also amazed at the lack of masks or distancing compared to Melbourne!

Even when the syd outbreak was at a critical level(just before xmas) i remember seeing hundreds of people at the fish markets & shopping centres not wearing masks or not standing apart.
I guess this is what happens though when people have a choice.
Im sure everyone is aware that in melbourne masks are still compulsory in shopping centres etc & its really odd to ever see someone not complying.
We would all rather not have to wear them but if it helps stop a case spreading or starting i am more than happy to do it & live as freely as possible.

dr dre 31st Jan 2021 22:17


Originally Posted by zanthrus (Post 10980414)
I will not comply. Get F#%Ked!

Great, could you please let us know how comfortable the seats are in the back of a paddy wagon, I’ve always wondered.

Also do they throw you into a big holding cell once you get to the station with a whole bunch of other arrestees just like in the movies?

By any chance could you also film your interaction with police when you are “not complying”, I do enjoy watching those “Karen” videos. Are you going to scream about your “constitutional rights” or claim you “don’t recognise the authority of the police”?

Chronic Snoozer 31st Jan 2021 22:28


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10980652)
Great, could you please let us know how comfortable the seats are in the back of a paddy wagon, I’ve always wondered.

Also do they throw you into a big holding cell once you get to the station with a whole bunch of other arrestees just like in the movies?

By any chance could you also film your interaction with police when you are “not complying”, I do enjoy watching those “Karen” videos. Are you going to scream about your “constitutional rights” or claim you “don’t recognise the authority of the police”?

Won’t need to. He’ll just flash his ASIC. ;-)

Ragnor 31st Jan 2021 22:55


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 10980241)
It amazes me to see the joy people are
heaving at seeing an outbreak in WA.

Its not an outbreak, despite what McClown is feeding you.

Keg 1st Feb 2021 02:31


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10980307)
"

The Australian Government has the capability to declare a human health response zone, as seen with evacuations of early quarantine cohorts to national facilities or State/Territory facilities gazetted for this purpose, including the Learmonth RAAF base or immigration detention facilities, and the Northern Territory’s Howard Springs facility.



Howard Springs is already being used. It is hardly a ‘remote isolation facility’ with decent hospitals and a decent size city with all their capability about a 20 minute drive away. You’re proposing Learmonth for goodness sake. Anything near to them that can deal with the sort of things we’re talking about? Imagine the outcry were we quarantining people in the sort of accommodation available at a bare base.

Oh but now you want to have staff on standby in case there is an outbreak, using the Flying Doc and introducing massive risk for them if they need to move people to a capital city hospital, doing FIFO for the quarantine the workers on site for the two weeks they’re working, then quarantine them somewhere else for two weeks (and what about the workers looking after these people who are now quarantining, what are the rules for them), before allowing them a couple of weeks back in the community? Plus you now need to organise a bunch of repat flights from all corners of the globe direct to this ‘remote place’.

Sure, we can solve this problem with truck loads of money and about 12 months to get suitable accomodation available at Learmonth for your idea. In the mean time we do precisely what with those trying to get back into Australia?

Come back to me when you’re fair dinkum dre.



Keg 1st Feb 2021 02:34


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 10980534)
And if it breaks out.. and we get locked down for a 100 days and you can’t fly, .. you will be ok with that?

Why should it ‘break out’? Northern beaches of Sydney had 30 cases in a single day on December 20. Meanwhile those of us in the Southern side of Sydney wore our masks, ensured social distancing, and got on with life. Less than six weeks later and we’ve had zero Covid for fourteen days. No lockdown required.

jrfsp 1st Feb 2021 02:57

I mean we stick refugees with complex medical needs on Christmas Island / PNG etc.....

We have indigenous people living with complex medical needs in extremely remote communities that health care managed to serve......

And the "Celebs" are allowed to isolate at the country houses.....But no lets stick the return travellers in the CBD what a good idea

dr dre 1st Feb 2021 03:16


Originally Posted by Keg (Post 10980729)
Plus you now need to organise a bunch of repat flights from all corners of the globe direct to this ‘remote place’.

In that case the government should contract these flights to Australian airlines who are familiar with operating into remote CTAFs, rather than mostly use foreign carriers as is done now. This would be a benefit to Australian pilot jobs.


about 12 months to get suitable accomodation available
The Chinese managed to build a temporary hospital within 10 days. Why can't we erect temporary accommodation within a similar time frame, even in a more remote location? Or use existing mine accommodation as is being proposed in Queensland? Doesn't have to be a 5 star hotel, tented accommodation could probably suffice for most returnees.

My main point is the current system of storing returned travelers in CBD hotels is not working. So unless we want this to be happening for most of the year we're going to have to think of a solution. Some more concrete form of quarantine will have to be implemented, otherwise these events will keep occurring. One simple thing could be the paying of quarantine staff a decent salary so they don't need a second job and a housing allowance so they can rent a place alone for the duration of their contract. There's not going to be a solution to this that doesn't involve spending money.


1A_Please 1st Feb 2021 03:23


Originally Posted by Keg (Post 10980729)

Howard Springs is already being used. It is hardly a ‘remote isolation facility’ with decent hospitals and a decent size city with all their capability about a 20 minute drive away. You’re proposing Learmonth for goodness sake. Anything near to them that can deal with the sort of things we’re talking about? Imagine the outcry were we quarantining people in the sort of accommodation available at a bare base.

Oh but now you want to have staff on standby in case there is an outbreak, using the Flying Doc and introducing massive risk for them if they need to move people to a capital city hospital, doing FIFO for the quarantine the workers on site for the two weeks they’re working, then quarantine them somewhere else for two weeks (and what about the workers looking after these people who are now quarantining, what are the rules for them), before allowing them a couple of weeks back in the community? Plus you now need to organise a bunch of repat flights from all corners of the globe direct to this ‘remote place’.

Sure, we can solve this problem with truck loads of money and about 12 months to get suitable accomodation available at Learmonth for your idea. In the mean time we do precisely what with those trying to get back into Australia?

Come back to me when you’re fair dinkum dre.

The problem is that remote camps just won't have the capacity. Up until last week, international arrivals into hotel quarantine were capped at 4127 per week. This may increase on 15/2 but it is equally likely that WA will ask for a temporary suspension whilst it sorts out its outbreak of 1!

To get remote camps accepting these sorts of numbers per week (and even then we accept that this isn't enough), we would need a remote camp capacity of over 8000. Currently Howard Springs has a capacity of 600 which limits it to 300 arrivals per week though the government has announced a plan to increase capacity to 850. Those 300 per week are outside the hotel quarantine capacity limit.



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