Not hard at all. They want to come home or not those are the rules I am very happy they have halved the inbound and tightened quarantine process. Its about time I say.

Tightening the quarantine process is the only worthwhile improvement, because that's where the system is failing, not the actual arriving and quarantining. It's not the returning passengers fault the various State Governments can't manage a quarantine process

There's a reason for that. Who will look bad?

It’s not hard at all with the right information. What the great unwashed - and apparently some of the washed it seems - don’t realise is that all a PCR says is that you don’t have the active virus NOW. It may be incubating from a previous exposure and you may still develop it.

Everyone seems to be focusing on the number of people who will be vaccinated "straight away".

As I read the tea leaves the governments plan is to vaccinate the "vulnerable" and "essential workers" first.

So the elderly in the community and the Nanas in the nursing homes and the let's be honest, the low-paid carers for the elderly, as well as the nurses and doctors get the first say million or so, or more or less, vaccinations.

How many of those were actually going to be overseas travelers anyhow?

I suggest that the first large percentage of vaccinations will do nothing to very little to stimulate overseas travel?

TurningTheSpanners

By vaccinating the elderly and others who make up the majority of people who end up seriously ill and in hospital, you’re reducing the chances of the health system from being overwhelmed. Once that occurs, life can go start to go back to some sort of ‘new normal’. COVID-19 will never be erradicatdd, and will end up being just another flu strain in circulation. The vaccine won’t end COVID, but hopefully it will end the pandemic.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my previous post.

What I'm trying to say is that say, pick a number, any number, when the first one million people are vaccinated in Australia that doesn't mean that there will be one million people queuing up at the check-in counters.

A lot (vast majority?) of the first vaccinated wouldn't have flown overseas anyhow so again, making stuff up, let's say it takes a few months to get that first million vaccines distributed the vast majority of potential fliers won't start getting their jabs until, say, maybe June.

TurningTheSpanners

I'm not sure of your point here, spanner. Surely the obvious thing is to vaccinate the most at risk first, no?
Are you proposing some other plan?

No, Simply pointing out that WHEN VACCINATIONS FIRST START the "most at risk" and "front-line workers" will RIGHTLY SO be getting the jab first.

So, when one million people have been vaccinated that DOES NOT MEAN one million people will turn up at the check-in counters because they weren't going to fly anyhow.

I'm saying that just because one million people (or whatever number it is) have been vaccinated by July 1 there won't be the DEMAND for one million seats on July 1.

TurningTheSpanners.

Yep does not get the point, travel has a grand total of ZERO relevence to the vacination schedule. Because prisoners and guards are one of the first groups to get it and the majority of them will not travel. Prison (guards and inmates) are a very at risk / difficult group if covid gets in, Elderly and their carers and front line medical services are all in the first group.

well only about 45 countries. Never ever asked for any proof of vaccines. I am sure as you say there are such countries.

however my point remains.

Things will be very different now. You will not be able to travel to ANY country, or indeed as per Qantas and other airlines will follow suit, to even get on the aircraft without your COVID passport.

which combined with Ticketmaster working on making you prove you have the vaccine before you buy tickets to any event and employers making noises about requiring it and so on, it makes the vaccine de facto compulsory.

which is why the federal government doesn’t need to lose any political capital by making it compulsory because they know it already will be . Unless of course you don’t work, never go out or travel internationally . Which these days is basically nobody. I mean anyone can afford a Jetstar ticket to Bali ...

That’s one outcome that is quite plausible and, as per my point, the precedent has been set with yellow fever, albeit for “just” country access.

My family and I have had to produce said certificate for three countries for entry.

Yep and if my memory services me correctly which I frequently wonder..... Before heading up into deep Africa I had to have the yellow fever proof. Had that card in my passport until it expired.

Whatever is required to get international (and domestic) travel reliable bring it on.

The new whatever.

Unfortunately for the people who want to come home the rules are the rules as suggested,its not a matter of being self righteous or having a dont care attitude towards the people stranded,its really now a matter of managing & protecting what we have without going the high risk scenario.
There are always going to be people who get caught up in a border closure issue & reality now is nothing is going to change whilst the overseas issues compound day by day.

So another words the vaccine should be taken by all the baby boomers, because they are subject to dying with covid as the stats show 60s+.
All the millennials will catch it have the flu symptom recover because their immune systems are stronger.
Which leaves you with the virus which can be managed by natures minerals and supplements. Did you see the news today you
can eliminate type 2 diabetes by altering your diet. Seriously, WOW, OMG then why did you invent that stupid food pyramid 40 years ago, all its done is
increase heart disease, cancers, obesity, diabetes etc. Then they take the fat out of most products call it low fat and all that does is
make you feel more hungary.
The western diet has well and truly been found out now that a little micro golf ball with snail tentacles can reap havoc.
I have never called it junk food I've called it dirty food which gives you dirty blood.

I’ll agree with you on one thing, there’s no need to “sell” any requirements to returning Australians. We all understand quarantine is required. We can all accept the fact it now costs $$$ as well. So requiring extra testing before departure is no big deal. If you want to come home, you’ll do what’s required.

However......

The problem lies with the way the system was brought in and now continues to operate:

- The short notice given for the initial application of the cap created a HUGE backlog of people that were continuously bumped off flights multiple times for months and months. I can accept this is a short term stress to deal with to create a long term solution. BUT what I don’t expect is to see the same issue being created 6 months later.

- Now the cap has been in place for a while with relatively stable numbers, bookings have stabilised and it’s pretty rare to be bumped off a flight.

- So then the REDUCTION in the cap has done the same thing as the initial introduction of the cap. Anyone unfortunate enough to be arriving in Australia in the next 4 weeks is no facing the risk they’ll loose their booking.

In fact on one of the FB groups I follow a lady had just that experience. And guess when she was offered an alternative flight???

MAY!!! 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

So now after almost a year of dealing with COVID we find Australians stranded overseas without jobs, money, accommodation, visas, etc and facing the prospect of waiting months for their rebooked flight. All because of a poorly thought out, knee jerk policy change.

So you can say “it’s not about having a don’t care attitude” all you like. But the policy as it currently stands does exactly that. It looks “good enough” to those of you on the correct side of the border, but continues to give the middle finger to those of us on the wrong side.

The Australian quarantine system could be so much better. Both for its main purpose (keeping the virus out) and for the reason it exists (to allow access to Australia). There is two levels of government to blame for that.

The one thing I’m sick and tired of reading, is how it’s the fault of the people that have to use it. AUSTRALIAN CITIZENS TRYING TO COME HOME!!!!

Turnleft: It's not just "Baby Boomers" who die from Covid and the long term health effects on all organs appear to be ominous. You do not want to get infected with this virus if you value your class 1 medical certificate.

Aviation Enthusiast: As I have repeatedly said, this is a war that is being fought literally hour by hour. Of course the system isn't perfect, its been cobbled together on the run and changed as circumstances change as it should be. Your outrage is totally misplaced.

For example, if (God forbid) a mutation makes covid as deadly as ebola tomorrow then NOBODY is getting into Australia at all! Tell your lady FB friend she is lucky she has a booking for May and to be prepared to respond within a few hours if that situation changes.

This is why smart international travellers always have some "get home money" in cash or a spare open dated ticket. There are also sorts of situations where you may need to GTF out real quick. COvid was one of them.

Sunfish it has been clear throughout all your posts that you have a clear fear of COVID. That clearly clouds your viewpoint on the entire subject. So forgive me if I don’t agree that my “outrage is misplaced”.

There is a virus that spreads. How we react to it is set by the various governments and health departments around the world. As it should be.

But if you are going to sit back and respond to legitimate criticism of the system by claiming it “changes hour by hour” and “tell your FB lady friend she is lucky”, mate you can go ........

I try to offer useful comments on this thread explaining useful processes used by other comparable countries around the world to point out that perhaps a policy “cobbled together on the run” should be better after 11 months. Why? Because I think Australia can do better. Because I see directly the result of friends being affected by these changes.

It’s been over a year since COVID appeared. It’s been over 10 months since the Australian border was closed. It’ll probably be close to the end of 2021 at the earliest before any border restrictions are lifted. So because this has been going on so long already, this policy should get better and more efficient with time right? There should be improvements in the system that make it work better, not just ramping up testing of cleaning staff. Instead Australia only ever seems to go in one direction, harsher and more bureaucratic responses.

I’m not and never have argued to open the border (or even to get rid of quarantine). But neither will I sit back when people such as yourself blow off legitimate criticism or improvements to a system that is creating unnecessary hardship and stress for thousands of Aussies. Just like you’re all pissed when the states give no notice border closures.....

As for an “open ticket”. I’m pretty sure that would have been a good idea if you live in a 3rd world war zone, not sure most people would think that’s necessary living somewhere like the UK or USA. But like I said, how is this a useful suggestion when the pandemic will probably end up lasting at least 2 years?? Or when the ENTIRE WORLD closed down in April?? That sort of tip only works when it’s one country with problems.....

Aviation Enthusiast: Thank you for your reply. In answer to your question I would say: "Yes but". If the threat from Covid was static and constant and our local circumstances were constant then of course you are right. Our bureaucratic systems (Noun not adjective) would be expected to get considerably better over time.

However that is not the case at all. We are shooting at a moving target. The "Right" answer changes literally hour by hour. I would list the following non exhaustive list of factors to be considered:

- Our knowledge of the virus behaviour and effects is incomplete. In addition the virus is mutating, the latest South African and British strains being a major cause of concern so we are working with a snapshot of what we think this virus is like that changes with every new scientific paper. For example the latest advice (weekend) is that the current vaccines should be effective against mutations. If that were not the case our entire posture would have to be changed this week.

- our circumstances are changing. SIx months ago Victoria was cactus, now its NSW and Queensland's turn. Our response has to follow the local circumstances and change when they do.

Mistakes will be made. We must accept that. The alternative is to double and triple check every action in advance which means our response will take weeks or months and thus be useless since the rules are changing day by day.

We must accept errors. We must accept that actions will conflict with each other as 60,000 Victorians found out the hard way. To do otherwise will slow our response and make it useless.

I find it odd that some pilots are troubled by this situation. After all, once you are in the air you must make do with what you have and change your plans as circumstances change. To be a pilot needs a flexible mind set. Our public health people are having to apply this same sort of flexibility daily.

NSW is currently experiencing around zero to five cases of community transmission daily, with no upward trend. QLD similarly bugger-all. You’re suggesting this means they’re now ‘cactus’ in the way Victoria was, back when you had 700+ cases daily?

A tent city outside of Curtin AFB or Learmonth, surrounded by security fencing and guards would clear the backlog out of Europe in just a few weeks provided the repatriates were prepared to camp out for 14 days.
But they're not!

They ALL want either the Sheraton or to go home unimpeded so that they can all diligently follow their quarantine restrictions for 14 days with just the occasional (say 6 times per day) visit to a leagues club or a disco.
Unfortunately, the Sheraton doesn't have 40,000 spare rooms.

Sorry. But they'll just have to suck it up.

Guess all those greedy expats should have quit their jobs and come back as soon as possible to go on the dole. Instead they tried to hold onto their jobs and avoid becoming yet another strain on the Australian welfare system. Now made redundant they have no choice than to spend ridiculous amounts of money on repatriation and quarantine.

instead of just pouring money into welfare how about create some new jobs with extra quarantine spaces. It works fine in many other countries without ridiculously low caps on arrivals. No need for tent cities in the desert.

The “you were told to come home argument” is crap

That would be awesome. Imagine coming out of cold Europe and going camping for 14 days up north in the tropics. Just don't mention quarantine. I can picture a camp fire in the middle
of the tent enclosure all the kids melting marshmallows the blokes cooking roo on the spit. Add some wifi a nice dandy holiday.

If I really wanted or needed to come home, I would do it at the drop of a hat.
Wife, kids and all.
It's 2 weeks, for X's sake.

But then, I'm a boomer.

“They ALL want the Sheraton” ?????

Haha keep talking to yourself, clearly you have no idea!


This isn’t even an option, so I don’t know why you keep going on about it.

If someone can escape quarantine to “go to the leagues club” that means the quarantine system isn’t good enough. Because there will always be idiots who try to do the wrong thing. Same as normal society, kind of why we have police and jails...

NSW and QLD are not cactus. Victoria needed to be locked down because the other elements (quarantine and contact tracing) had failed so badly Dan was left with no other option. So far NSW and QLD seem to be doing a reasonable job containing it. A bit of perspective is required.

The massive flow on effect to an already heavily restricted arrivals cap, means any changes should be for major reasons. Because delaying someone and their family by 5 months is not ok. I don’t think anyone with no visa, job, house and running out of money would consider themselves “lucky” to be given this news. The current outbreak of the “believed to be” more contagious variant, does not warrant this reaction in my opinion. Because of the effect it will have on arrivals....

I can accept things change as we learn more about the virus. So they should as required. But this is not a statement to hide behind when decision that are being made have serious consequences for the people affected. Especially when better policy options are available (and explained to you here).

So contagious that the only person that the Brisbane cleaner passed it onto was someone living her.

A testament to the cleaner and their partner for socially distancing and avoiding large amounts of contact whilst working in a high risk job.

The B117 strain IS more transmissible, that’s been scientifically proven. You can understand why all jurisdictions are very keen to not let this escape as it can cause serious issues over “regular” SARS-COV-2:

Southend Hospital oxygen supply reaches 'critical' situation

There’s actually talk in the U.K. today about increasing social distancing to three metres because it is that contagious.

With all of the talk about baby boomers - some numbers. In the late Spring, the U.K. Chief Scientific Officer said that he believed there would be around 20,000 deaths and that would be a “good result.” At the end of 2020, we had around 78,000 deaths.

Out of that 78,000, only about 400 deaths came in those under the age of 50 and only 4000 under the age of 60. 18% of deaths are over the age of 90.

These are clearly a tragedy however I’d expect the vast majority of the western elderly population to have been vaccinated by late Spring and the death numbers going through the floor.

McGoose must feel like a real goose today, Vic and QLD distancing themselves from his comments he made against NSW yesterday. Could it be Vic and QLD will have a different approach moving forward and aligning themself to what was originally agreed in national cabinet.

Extract from QLD "Mandatory Face Masks Direction"

Quote:

---

Face mask requirements on domestic commercial flights

---

Does Queensland even have airspace? Or is all airspace Federal? You can take your mask off when you fly across the border out of the state? What difference does that make to the conditions in the cabin?

Small hint - if you're reading legal stuff, if it's in bold, that term should be defined in the document.

If you scroll to the bottom and still awake, you will see that Queensland Airspace is defined for the purposes of the direction as the airspace located over Queensland. Pretty clear cut it would seem.

I'm very interested to read what that agreement says.
Can you please post a link.

Yes but there is the small matter of jurisdiction. A state government can write all the aviation rules they want but many are not "legal" and so become un-enforceable.

One that springs to mind was a certain state trying to restrict aircraft to fly over wilderness areas above 5000 feet agl. They had no joy with that.

Not that that has stopped both State and Federal governments bending the constitution during the Covid pandemic.

Yes, but does the Queensland government have any authority to dictate what happens in the airspace above Queensland? Genuine question, not having a go at anyone. Just that I’m aware of CASA, Airservices Australia, ICAO, etc, as organisations that might influence what happens when flying around in Australian airspace - but individual state governments?? Any thoughts, PPrune lawyers?

If you are referring to border closures then that matter has already been referred to the High Court and found to be allowable under the constitution.
If you need confirmation, just ask Clive Palmer. Or ScoMo.

NSW is the same...with the same sort of ridiculous language. Got an email today from the local Airport Manager, the aero club hangar is a non-mask zone, but the club room, toilet and *cough* "Terminal" are must-be-masked zones.

But where is Queensland itself defined? If you are landing RWY19 at Brisbane, can you have it off while you're over the Bay and put it back on again when you cross the mangroves? Does Anna-Stayaway's rule extend to the 12NM limit?

I can see it now, "QLink 24Delta, Climb & Maintain Flight Level 250" -> "MMm umt hoo fi ze, Q unk ta" -> "Qlink 24Delta say again" -> "I've taken the stupid mask off, Climb Maintain Flight Level 250, QLink 24Delta"..."QLink 24Delta, possible pilot deviation, advise ready to copy"

I had to wear the mask during my last flight review. It lasted until about the crosswind turn before I had to take it off to stop fogging up my glasses.

Just like the Norwegian blue, jurisdiction "don't enter into it."

The state of Queensland is not controlling the airspace in any way or aircraft access. It is just saying that if you are in an aircraft (with some caveats) in an area geographic area (airspace), you must wear a mask.

FWIW masks are expressly forbidden by Airbus in the cockpit as they are a safety hazard for that very reason, as well as other HF aspects of communication cues. Back locally, if you care to read the relevant Directions, both NSW and QLD address this issue stating that pilots don't need to wear masks in the cockpit.... but don't let that stop the hypotheticals.

There are plenty of faults and gaping holes in rushed legislation in these COVID times, but that's not one of them....

And as for the off shore limits, to be fair, even CASA struggle with that one....

Howard Springs to double capacity next month, probably a trial to see if they can handle even more. Could be the quarantine solution hopefully for the country. Get the quarantine out of the cities.

From OOL Then....masks on at gate, off during taxy to line up on 32, on again at around about the 17/35 intersection off again 5 mins later heading South?

No, because the NSW legislation (that you as a pax are unaware of) states you will wear one while in their airspace too.
It would have made more sense if they had just said you must wear one while in flight between two Queensland airports. It makes absolutely no sense to imply you have to wear one to the border then you can take it off. Does the crew now have to announce "We are crossing the border, put your masks on/take your masks off" now?