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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

Chronic Snoozer 21st Jan 2021 23:57


Originally Posted by ruprecht (Post 10973190)
The question could have been: ďDo you think people from ĎThe Eastí are really lizard people in disguise?Ē and the results would have been similar. :p

I think that is in the school curriculum. :p

dr dre 22nd Jan 2021 01:06


Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer (Post 10973167)
The irony of your commentary is that it isn't up to WA to secede, the rest of Australia would have to agree to it via a referendum would they not?

Well, itís complicated. In the 1933 attempt (spurred by economic discontent at the time) they went to petition the British parliament, which they believed had sovereignty at the time. The British said that the 1931 Statue of Westminster prevented them from interfering in Australian Federal matters. The movement died out.

Lang Hancock started another attempt in the 70ís during the first Iron Ore boom. It got some traction in the press and they fielded some politcial candidates but that died out within time, as this ďattemptĒ will too.

Thereís no mention in the Constitution about leaving the Federation, I assume barring a civil war Federal Parliament would have to grant assent, which they wonít.


I was in the WA museum the other day - this very question is posed in one of the displays and a very unscientific counter method used to allow visitors to answer the question "Do you think WA should secede?". The pile of counters for yes was definitely greater than that for no.
I reckon if I posed that question in any state - ďShould NSW/Vic/whoever secede if the residents of this state will benefit economically?Ē the results would be a clear Yes too. It doesnít mean itís going to happen.

This thread having devolved into secession talk anyway is pointless, even if WA or any state did secede I doubt it would have a major effect on the amount of people travelling between cities once the pandemic is over, which therefore wouldnít have too much of an effect on airline jobs, which is what this thread should be about anyway.

Ragnor 22nd Jan 2021 01:45

Vic has mostly opened up, that’s a good start. Hopefully Queen P announces next Friday the same. SA won’t open until Feb but at least they have a date

WhisprSYD 22nd Jan 2021 02:36


Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 10973248)
Vic has mostly opened up, thatís a good start. Hopefully Queen P announces next Friday the same. SA wonít open until Feb but at least they have a date

yeah good start, but who has a clue to figuring out the traffic light system.

northern beaches LGA with 150+ cases since mid December can come in, but Canada Bay LGA with 0 cases since October canít...

:ugh:

Ragnor 22nd Jan 2021 02:39

Canada bay can go to Vic unrestricted. It’s just one LGA that can’t go. But you’re correct this traffic light system who can make sense of it.

WhisprSYD 22nd Jan 2021 02:57


Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 10973266)
Canada bay can go to Vic unrestricted. Itís just one LGA that canít go. But youíre correct this traffic light system who can make sense of it.

Ok, I must of missed that update today

michigan j 22nd Jan 2021 10:32


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10973237)
even if WA or any state did secede I doubt it would have a major effect on the amount of people travelling between cities once the pandemic is over, which therefore wouldn’t have too much of an effect on airline jobs, which is what this thread should be about anyway.

Good summary - but remember that would also involve a CASA and a CASWA, and international relations between them.

Bend alot 22nd Jan 2021 21:36

WA had/has a policy of dividing the state into sections that get travel restrictions when/if they get community COVID cases.

If they simply applied that to other states and territories, that would be a good start.

SA, QLD, VIC, NT & NSW could be broken up into many zones and only the zone/s (that everyone knows in advance) get shut down if a cases evolve.

Ragnor 23rd Jan 2021 00:56

It is already applied to NSW, in the form of LGA at the current minute Cumberland is the only LGA not allowed to enter Victoria. Why that is I have no idea very random.

KRviator 23rd Jan 2021 02:11


Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 10974068)
It is already applied to NSW, in the form of LGA at the current minute Cumberland is the only LGA not allowed to enter Victoria. Why that is I have no idea very random.

Qld, the NT and, IIRC SA also had LGA-Specific restrictions on entry vs locking out the whole state, WA being the holdout with their typical "EVERYONE in NSW is a risk to us" attitude.

Yet McGoose wants Gladys to "go with the majority and eliminate the virus...." but it seems to me I can travel almost anywhere in the country from my country-NSW LGA, except WA.

Ragnor 23rd Jan 2021 02:23

When will QLD make a decision are they wanting 28 days still?! SA earliest opening to Sydney is February 2nd for 14 days.

wheels_down 23rd Jan 2021 03:21

Looks about Monday 15th for Sydney/Queensland to open, IF things stay at zero.

So if Sydney pickup another case this coming week its basically game over until March 1.

Rex looking doubtful. Dan will follow his colleague up north. The question is how long will it last also once the gates are open. 30 days seems a good figure to put cash on.

Why even bother trying to travel domestically this year. Confidence had most certainly dropped off in the last 30 days, well from the conversations Iíve picked up.

Bend alot 23rd Jan 2021 04:20

Interesting is WA have on their web page requirements for very low, low and medium risk states.

They also state what very low and low is as per community COVID 19 numbers - BUT THEY have not followed their own public info! On this QLD should only have risen to low, from very low as only 2 cases were in the community in last rolling 14 - they state up to 5 cases of rolling 14 days is a low category risk state or territory.

dr dre 23rd Jan 2021 04:35


Originally Posted by Bend alot (Post 10974100)
On this QLD should only have risen to low, from very low as only 2 cases were in the community in last rolling 14 - they state up to 5 cases of rolling 14 days is a low category risk state or territory.

The higher classification came from the outbreak being of the B117 mutation which has a higher risk of transmissibility, which is why all states applied restrictions on Queensland straight away. Normal protocols and classifications had to be altered to take into account the higher risk of exponential growth outpacing contact tracing ability, itís a testament to the hotel worker who was infected that they limited their contact whilst working in a high risk job.

If you do a little bit of looking youíll see thereís hard science behind these decisions, it isnít all a conspiracy.

Ragnor 23rd Jan 2021 04:56


Originally Posted by wheels_down (Post 10974093)

Why even bother trying to travel domestically this year. Confidence had most certainly dropped off in the last 30 days, well from the conversations Iíve picked up.

Thats interesting, conversations Iíve had with travelers and what I have seen indicates the opposite. Ppl just want to be able to move around see their family, holiday and do business. It will come back just like November. But, mostly likely closing again in April because of one case.

ANstar 23rd Jan 2021 05:46


Originally Posted by Bend alot (Post 10974100)
Interesting is WA have on their web page requirements for very low, low and medium risk states.

They also state what very low and low is as per community COVID 19 numbers - BUT THEY have not followed their own public info! On this QLD should only have risen to low, from very low as only 2 cases were in the community in last rolling 14 - they state up to 5 cases of rolling 14 days is a low category risk state or territory.

Also worth pointing out it was QLD that asked for all states to declare BNE as a hotspot... which then triggered the border restrictions.

Bend alot 23rd Jan 2021 08:54


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10974105)
The higher classification came from the outbreak being of the B117 mutation which has a higher risk of transmissibility, which is why all states applied restrictions on Queensland straight away. Normal protocols and classifications had to be altered to take into account the higher risk of exponential growth outpacing contact tracing ability, itís a testament to the hotel worker who was infected that they limited their contact whilst working in a high risk job.

If you do a little bit of looking youíll see thereís hard science behind these decisions, it isnít all a conspiracy.

They have had about 14 days to amend the website! not very hard.

Very little science - distance and population density are a key factor - and truth is there was no real community transmittions of that strain even though the ground zero case used public transport. The only community case was her partner.

Got some science for that 70% more contagious variant or just luck?

Actual fact in Australia by science is it is less transmittable here, or am I missing the science on that?

Up to 5 days infectious in the community and all.

The numbers and rates of this virus are weird across the World but the stats within countries are pretty consistent after around 6 months after the first cases/second waves. They can be both good and bad and many countries (I have visited or lived) are pretty honest on such things. But the stats are way off what I expected.

dr dre 23rd Jan 2021 10:58


Originally Posted by Bend alot (Post 10974216)

Very little science - distance and population density are a key factor - and truth is there was no real community transmittions of that strain even though the ground zero case used public transport. The only community case was her partner.

Could have used a mask, could have been in an empty part of the train, could have coughed/sneezed into the elbow, could have not been shedding at that time.....


Got some science for that 70% more contagious variant or just luck?
Lineage-specific growth of SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 during the English national lockdown

Covid-19: New variant raises R number by up to 0.7


Actual fact in Australia by science is it is less transmittable here, or am I missing the science on that?
Single clusters are rarely good to form conclusions from. We know that if strain B1.1.7 gets into the community it does spread more than previous dominant strains. This is seen in nations which have had large outbreak of it.

Take Ireland for example. For the most part they were doing a good job with the pandemic. That all changed with the new mutation becoming the dominant variant. Now their health system is beginning to reach capacity.

Bend alot 23rd Jan 2021 11:56


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10974333)
Could have used a mask, could have been in an empty part of the train, could have coughed/sneezed into the elbow, could have not been shedding at that time.....



Lineage-specific growth of SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 during the English national lockdown

Covid-19: New variant raises R number by up to 0.7



Single clusters are rarely good to form conclusions from. We know that if strain B1.1.7 gets into the community it does spread more than previous dominant strains. This is seen in nations which have had large outbreak of it.

Take Ireland for example. For the most part they were doing a good job with the pandemic. That all changed with the new mutation becoming the dominant variant. Now their health system is beginning to reach capacity.

Try Botswana almost same number of cases as Australia - far fewer deaths and 1 10th the population.

New mutation to date is nothing outside both UK and South Africa (note Botswana is next door to south African strain).

If you think both the South African and UK variants are not in Botswana - I quote the Castle.

All the links and stuff still mean nothing look at Sweden originally the great model - then not. then we are still not sure (but certainly not a great model) they may end up not too bad.

What does seem to work (in affected state) is a hard fast large lock down - in Australia. That has worked in a number of states with the outbreaks. TAS, QLD and SA spring to mind.

Joker89 23rd Jan 2021 12:01


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10974333)

Take Ireland for example. For the most part they were doing a good job with the pandemic. That all changed with the new mutation becoming the dominant variant. Now their health system is beginning to reach capacity.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/...ay-22-january/

200 odd in ICU, actually looks like itís under control. As is Sweden

dr dre 23rd Jan 2021 13:13


Originally Posted by Joker89 (Post 10974377)

200 odd in ICU, actually looks like itís under control.

Totally under control, thatís barely anyone in the ICU, Iím sure thereís heaps more space left.......

ĎUrgent need of volunteersí ó Irish hospitals on the brink with just 26 ICU beds left in entire country


As is Sweden
Theyíre totally under control as well man, totally......

Covid-19 forces Swedish hospitals to delay 'necessary surgery' - Every one of the country's 21 regional healthcare authorities reported being in a "strained" or "very strained" situation, with the regions of JŲnkŲping and Uppsala telling SR that they were having to postpone urgent operations on cancer or heart patients

But hey, just the flu right......

Joker89 23rd Jan 2021 13:25

200 out of 4 million people, what a disaster, median age of death 82

your link for Sweden is 2 weeks old, check the daily infection and death rates for the last few days.

you mention Sweden a lot yet you probably donít know anyone living there or ever lived there yourself.

The only impact to normal people lives is the local
swimming pool and ice rink is closed. Kids still attending primary school. Grand parents not forbidden to visit their loved ones. And life goes on without the political bull crap Australia dishes out on a daily basis.

the fact is people get sick from a range of things, unfortunately some of these people die at an earlier age than is desirable. Canít ever change that. You sprout a lot of garbage of health systems coming close to collapse. Where is the evidence of it actually happening. More people died in December 1993 in Sweden than April 2020. Also, there is basically zero flu now so look at excess mortality before preaching doomsday predictions.

morno 23rd Jan 2021 15:18


Originally Posted by Joker89 (Post 10974442)
You sprout a lot of garbage of health systems coming close to collapse. Where is the evidence of it actually happening.

California. Paramedics told not to transport patients to hospital who have a grim outlook, and Iím not just talking about Covid patients. Paramedics told to limit the use of oxygen, due to low supply.

I canít be arsed finding links to the stories that proves it, but theyíd be very easy to find.

Climb150 23rd Jan 2021 18:09


Originally Posted by morno (Post 10974527)
California. Paramedics told not to transport patients to hospital who have a grim outlook, and Iím not just talking about Covid patients. Paramedics told to limit the use of oxygen, due to low supply.

I canít be arsed finding links to the stories that proves it, but theyíd be very easy to find.

Seems to be a bit of a scaremongering by the news networks. This from NPR,

Well, actually, it is best practice to resuscitate patients in cardiac arrest in the field where they are found. That is our normal protocol in LA County. So the shift towards not transporting patients who do not have restoration of pulse is a relatively small change. These patients have very limited chance of survival. And so these are the patients that we're asking the paramedics to call in to our base hospitals, discuss with the base physician and determine if further resuscitation is futile and therefore terminate resuscitation on scene. We are continuing to resuscitate patients in cardiac arrest, and we continue to transport all patients in whom our paramedics are able to resuscitate in the field
Another gem from the same article,

And I say that because I see how people are still congregating in groups and making decisions to have family gatherings or New Year's parties. And these decisions are what continues to impact our health care system.

So the LA ambulance system is being overwhelmed by people who probably seem not to take advice seriously.





blubak 23rd Jan 2021 19:49


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10974333)
Could have used a mask, could have been in an empty part of the train, could have coughed/sneezed into the elbow, could have not been shedding at that time.....



Lineage-specific growth of SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 during the English national lockdown

Covid-19: New variant raises R number by up to 0.7



Single clusters are rarely good to form conclusions from. We know that if strain B1.1.7 gets into the community it does spread more than previous dominant strains. This is seen in nations which have had large outbreak of it.

Take Ireland for example. For the most part they were doing a good job with the pandemic. That all changed with the new mutation becoming the dominant variant. Now their health system is beginning to reach capacity.

Numbers in ireland are down from 8000 a day to around 2000 with generally 60+ deaths per day.
Their govt are saying no relief from restrictions till at least end of feb however it seems you can still go for an overseas holiday with the govt response being,you shouldnt go!
Puzzles me somewhat when you read that & also only a requirement to have a test within 72hrs of returning.

dr dre 23rd Jan 2021 20:44


Originally Posted by Joker89 (Post 10974442)
The only impact to normal people lives is the local swimming pool and ice rink is closed. Kids still attending primary school. Grand parents not forbidden to visit their loved ones. And life goes on without the political bull crap Australia dishes out on a daily basis.

Thereís a ban there on gatherings above 8, 10 sqm per person in public areas, ban on non essential entry from outside EU, total ban on UK and Denmark, non essential public buildings closed til Feb. Mask recommendations issued for the first time in December. Plus a lot of nursing homes have chosen to close to visitors so grand parents visits are limited. And High schools switched to remote learning. Life certainly isnít back to normal there.


Where is the evidence of it actually happening.
You donít think ďnecessary and urgentĒ heart and cancer surgery being delayed is a problem?


More people died in December 1993 in Sweden than April 2020. Also, there is basically zero flu now so look at excess mortality before preaching doomsday predictions.
They had their deadliest November since 1918. Excess mortality was clearly above average in 2020, as was the same in every European country.

Swedenís strategy has given them a death rate 10 times higher than their Nordic brethren in Norway and Finland and 3 times higher than Denmark.

But the most telling thing is that even the King of Sweden admitted their strategy has been a failure. Their Prime Minister has admitted it was a failure. Even their Chief Epidemiologist back-pedalled. You canít try to rehabilitate what theyíve done now if they themselves have admitted it was a mistake.

dr dre 23rd Jan 2021 20:50


Originally Posted by blubak (Post 10974690)
Numbers in ireland are down from 8000 a day to around 2000 with generally 60+ deaths per day.

Thatís because the nation was been in a lockdown since the end of last month. Tough measures are working, but the pandemic is still a serious issue if you fail to do anything.

Ragnor 23rd Jan 2021 20:52

The main thing is Australia can almost open up domestically again, I’m busting for a holiday.

WingNut60 23rd Jan 2021 21:47


Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 10974724)
The main thing is Australia can almost open up domestically again, I’m busting for a holiday.

It's a bit hot in Broome at this time of year but our south coast regions are always good ................if you can get a booking!
Good luck with that.
Plus, of course, we don't know which "Denmark" you are supposed to be in.

KRviator 23rd Jan 2021 22:29


Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 10974724)
The main thing is Australia can almost open up domestically again, Iím busting for a holiday.

Why would anyone risk booking anything interstate? Someone only has to sneeze in Cobar and McGowan is likely to reinstate the hard border. I'm flabbergasted Anna-Stayaway "only" implemented a hotspot-based approach with the Avalon & Berala outbreaks. I mean, who would have thought someone at Dubbo would have less risk of bringing the Pestilence to Queensland than someone from Drummoyne? Everyone knows WA is the leader here, and the NT, Victoria, SA, Queensland and even Tasmania are all wrong with their health advice.

Nope, if I want a holiday, it'll be somewhere relatively local.

Turnleft080 24th Jan 2021 06:00


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10974772)
Why would anyone risk booking anything interstate? Someone only has to sneeze in Cobar and McGowan is likely to reinstate the hard border. I'm flabbergasted Anna-Stayaway "only" implemented a hotspot-based approach with the Avalon & Berala outbreaks. I mean, who would have thought someone at Dubbo would have less risk of bringing the Pestilence to Queensland than someone from Drummoyne? Everyone knows WA is the leader here, and the NT, Victoria, SA, Queensland and even Tasmania are all wrong with their health advice.

Nope, if I want a holiday, it'll be somewhere relatively local.

Us lepers in Melbourne from July to Oct last year had wonderful local holidays.
It was called going to the supermarket and strolling the magnificent scenery of food items in
their natural habitat called shelves.

Global Aviator 24th Jan 2021 21:03


Originally Posted by Turnleft080 (Post 10974909)
Us lepers in Melbourne from July to Oct last year had wonderful local holidays.
It was called going to the supermarket and strolling the magnificent scenery of food items in
their natural habitat called shelves.

Gotta keep the humour alive!!!

People will travel.

The only difference is having a get out quick contingency plan!

Ragnor 24th Jan 2021 21:50

Ppl will travel and this mornings announcement will give the traveling public confidents now.

The next issue is, how will the state premiers react when there is a covid case July when most of the population is vaccinated.

NZ just went two months now they have that nasty strain even after a negative result this is here for the long term McGoose and Queen P need to accept that.

KRviator 24th Jan 2021 22:25


Originally Posted by Ragnor (Post 10975463)
NZ just went two months now they have that nasty strain even after a negative result this is here for the long term McGoose and Queen P need to accept that.

<sarcasm> Point of order, good sir. They are the Premier's of their states! They don't have to "accept" anything! The buck stops with them, remember! </sarcasm>

On a serious note though, all that means is they will likely mandate 4 weeks quarantine for interstate travelers, instead of 2 weeks. At the travelers expense remember.

After all, if you can afford to travel with the economy the way it is, you can afford to spend $8,000 in "hotel" quarantine costs! Unless you're a sportsman, actor, own a newspaper or are the BFF of a politician, in which case, you can quarantine wherever you damn well please....

Transition Layer 25th Jan 2021 12:31


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10974722)
Thatís because the nation was been in a lockdown since the end of last month. Tough measures are working, but the pandemic is still a serious issue if you fail to do anything.

dr dre,

Are you by any chance an actual Doctor? You seem to have some very strong opinions on this topic. And you also seem to fail to empathise with Pilots who are advocating a loosening of State border restrictions in Australia, in the faint hope more of us will get back to work.

Australopithecus 25th Jan 2021 20:41

You don’t need to be a doctor to not empathise with the craven, self-serving cries to open borders and damn the torpedos. The pilots here advocating free travel seem to discount the public not actually wanting to fly to a hot spot. Even the borders that are open currently are not seeing paying loads on many of the few flights. Additionally, readers here have to wade through some real drivel and occasional anti-boomer screed which does not do your case any good.

Green.Dot 25th Jan 2021 21:48

Pax numbers certainly arenít matching the hype that the airlines have been talking up even now that travel is unrestricted between many states.

School holidays are almost over- Feb and March will no doubt be underwhelming. Hopefully Easter & next school holidays will bring more joy, but this will all be subject to how many more knee jerks we see from leaders between now and then.

KRviator 25th Jan 2021 22:07


Originally Posted by Australopithecus (Post 10976145)
You donít need to be a doctor to not empathise with the craven, self-serving cries to open borders and damn the torpedos. The pilots here advocating free travel seem to discount the public not actually wanting to fly to a hot spot. Even the borders that are open currently are not seeing paying loads on many of the few flights. Additionally, readers here have to wade through some real drivel and occasional anti-boomer screed which does not do your case any good.

Likewise, you don't need to be a pilot to understand the current "open-closed-open-partially closed (for now, we'll see tomorrow morning, maybe) - nope, still open for now" rťgime of the various *cough* leaders *cough* does nothing whatsoever to build confidence in the ability of Australian's to feel safe travelling interstate, without either being screwed over on arrival (WA) or on their return (Victoria/Qld). Look at that idiot Victorian Police Minister (or whatever he was) that said "I see no problem whatsoever driving non-stop from the Queensland Border tothe Victorian Border, if you want to get home" (slightly paraphrased, but you get the idea).

Why on earth would you book a holiday interstate if there's the slightest chance you could be up for 14 days quarantine on your return, assuming you actually made it to your holiday destination in the first place, or weren't forced to quarantine there?

As for the anti-boomer sentiment, I don't subscribe to it much, but it is undeniable that the major beneficiaries of the border closures (to 'keep them safe' remember) and resultant economic damage are the boomers, while those most affected by the economic carnage are those generations that follow...

morno 25th Jan 2021 22:13

My wife tells me that sheíd like to travel to Sydney to see friends. No flippiní way would I risk letting her because we certainly canít afford 2 weeks quarantine if they suddenly close the borders. She agrees.

Thereís what I imagine would be a pretty common conversation in many households in Australia right now.

Dannyboy39 25th Jan 2021 22:46


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 10976186)
*cough* leaders *cough*..

Donít do that, youíll put the PPRuNe server into quarantine and no one from outside able to enter for 100 years.


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