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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

KRviator 26th Aug 2021 01:05

The least you could do, if you're trying to prove a point about ambulance ramping, is actually link to articles that discuss it. Or at least, compare apples with another fruit, not a vegetable...:ugh: Maybe, by using the comparisons provided by the AIHW or other federal government analytical datasets...

For example, not once in the ABC NSW article you linked to, does the word "ramp" appear...It's also a bid disingenious to try to prove your point about ramping by linking to an article that discusses issues at Griffth hospital, which serves a catchment of around 35,000 in the local area or Wee Waa- that doesn't even have a hospital and instead relies on a GP as does the vast majority of other small, regional areas, and trying to compare them to major metropolitan Perth or other metropolitan hospitals that have a catchment of several hundred thousand to nearing the million mark...

And in other news...We're over the 1,000 mark today, with 1,029 new cases... :*

ruprecht 26th Aug 2021 01:05


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11101359)
And that's because Australia has, for decades, relied on immigration to staff hospitals. A very (very) senior public servant then in the Commonwealth Department of Health and Ageing told me, a decade and a half ago, that without immigration Australia would not have a public hospital system.

The lazy way works until the source is closed off.

There was a news story yesterday that said Victoria is bringing in 350 medical staff from overseas (through our 'closed' borders of course) to help remove pressure from its hospital system.

Aged care is the same.

Xeptu 26th Aug 2021 01:11


Originally Posted by galdian (Post 11101334)
OK get it, some people will always hate regardless, last year NSW was largely open and free whilst VIC was largely closed, I would have thought a good effort - apparently not for some. The Delta variant is obviously CV19 on steroids - yes GB stuffed up BUT if not her someone else would have, the Delta strain cannot be eliminated

I feel your frustration, but to be clear, there were a lot of lessons learned in the VIC event, many mistakes made and many of those as a consequence of fatigue, many are still paying the price for that.

VIC should have been the last event of that magnitude in Australia. It isn't because not only did NSW fail to learn those lessons it thumbed its nose at them and rolled out the Gold Standard. In fairness I think it was scomo that labelled that.

We need a vaccine that works, lasts more than the current 5 months, prevents infection and therefore spread. I don't believe it's unreasonable for the other states to take all reasonable steps to remain Covid free at this time under the current circumstances, until at very least we are all vaccinated. To not do so means 15% longcovid with severe side effects and 30% with concerning side effects among the unvaccinated. a very big price to pay.

Lead Balloon 26th Aug 2021 01:12

Yes. That's true as well (ruprecht re aged care).

You can't just have a system that has capacity for extreme events and peaks on Fridays and weekends due to drunk idiots and thrill seekers, it would cost a fortune to maintain that over 365 days a year.
Yes 43I, but...

We're over 365 days into a pandemic, we need the extra capacity for at least another 365 days, and since when has spending a "fortune" been any impediment to the response to the pandemic?

43Inches 26th Aug 2021 01:12

It's not that hard to get into healthcare and start work, thing is, do you have the stomach to stay in the work, get abused and clean up shit daily for your job. Australia gets immigrants for hospital work, mostly because locals don't want to do it. The real issue is not immigrants but casualised workforce that are forced to work across multiple sites as they can't get enough livable hours on one facility, which from a healthcare point of view is just inviting the spread of disease like Covid.

-41 26th Aug 2021 01:18

RFDSWO rotary wing fleet should be unveiled soon.


43Inches 26th Aug 2021 01:21


We're over 365 days into a pandemic, we need the extra capacity for at least another 365 days, and since when has spending a "fortune" been any impediment to the response to the pandemic?
You could train an orderly up in a few months and have them "helping out" around the place. But Doctors and Nurses are years of lead time training, and they are always in short supply. So even if they threw money at health care, which they haven't, all they can do is add extra wings and beds with no one to actually staff them. Paramedics and ambulance staff are they same, you can buy a fleet of ambulance and have no crew for them. Turnover rate is very high in both areas. And seriously, why in your right mind would you want to be a paramedic, half your calls are drunks and drug ODs on weekends most of which get angry and violent. And recently I've been told some of the Sydney covid calls to houses have been getting abused as well.

Shout out to all the ambulance staff out there, I know a few are ex aviators, Keep up the amazing work!

-41 26th Aug 2021 01:26

The WA health department has refused to offer permanent contracts to 1000’s of nursing graduates in the last 18months. If WACHS and WA health refuse to offer permanent contracts trained personnel will move interstate.

WingNut60 26th Aug 2021 01:28


Originally Posted by KRviator (Post 11101339)

Not saying that the WA hospital situation is beyond criticism but in March the AMA was being headed up by Andrew Miller who seemed to have a very political drum to beat.
I'm pretty sure that the only thing stopping him from stepping up as the next rising WA Liberal star is the dilemma of a potential loss of revenue.

The comments from the AMA have been much less acerbic since Dr Omar Khorshid took the reins.


Lead Balloon 26th Aug 2021 01:28


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11101366)
It's not that hard to get into healthcare and start work, thing is, do you have the stomach to stay in the work, get abused and clean up shit daily for your job. Australia gets immigrants for hospital work, mostly because locals don't want to do it. The real issue is not immigrants but casualised workforce that are forced to work across multiple sites as they can't get enough livable hours on one facility, which from a healthcare point of view is just inviting the spread of disease like Covid.

Indeed, which is why the system - and hospitals and aged care aren't the only examples - breaks down when the pipeline of cheap, menial labour is shut off.

Maybe - and I know I'm off with the fairies here - Australia should learn a lesson and focus on developing greater capacity to train doctors and health care staff locally, and pay them properly.

MickG0105 26th Aug 2021 01:33


Originally Posted by WingNut60 (Post 11101374)
Not saying that the WA hospital situation is beyond criticism but in March the AMA was being headed up by Andrew Miller who seemed to have a very political drum to beat.
I'm pretty sure that the only thing stopping him from stepping up as the next rising WA Liberal star is the dilemma of a potential loss of revenue.

Pretty sure that Dr Andrew Miller was courted as a potential candidate by the Labor Party in WA.

43Inches 26th Aug 2021 01:38


Maybe - and I know I'm off with the fairies here - Australia should learn a lesson and focus on developing greater capacity to train doctors and health care staff locally, and pay them properly.
Could not agree more, same as teachers etc, but health care and training are considered cost burdens to business and community. The casualised nature of the Aged care workforce was one area that should have been cleaned up as soon as covid hit. Most are working fulltime hours across several facilities, it would be easy to offer them full time work in single facilities and have the same workforce. But, like supermarkets and such, casual workforce are easier to manage and control. The government could easily fix this by mandating % of workforce be permanent to ensure casuals are only a small part, but they wont do this as it would piss off Coles and Woolies and many other government backers in big business.

Xeptu 26th Aug 2021 01:43


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11101380)
Could not agree more, same as teachers etc, but health care and training are considered cost burdens to business and community. The casualised nature of the Aged care workforce was one area that should have been cleaned up as soon as covid hit. Most are working fulltime hours across several facilities, it would be easy to offer them full time work in single facilities and have the same workforce. But, like supermarkets and such, casual workforce are easier to manage and control. The government could easily fix this by mandating % of workforce be permanent to ensure casuals are only a small part, but they wont do this as it would piss off Coles and Woolies and many other government backers in big business.

They learnt it all from us in aviation.

MickG0105 26th Aug 2021 02:11


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11101380)
... The casualised nature of the Aged care workforce ...

What leads you to believe that the aged care workforce is 'casualised'? The data that I've seen shows the opposite, that the aged care workforce is largely made up of permanent full-time and part-time employees - around 75 percent - with the number of casual and contract arrangements shrinking over the past decade.

43Inches 26th Aug 2021 02:22


What leads you to believe that the aged care workforce is 'casualised'? The data that I've seen shows the opposite, that the aged care workforce is largely made up of permanent full-time and part-time employees - around 75 percent - with the number of casual and contract arrangements shrinking over the past decade.
Might depend on your state, Victoria is still very casualised. The federal government has put in place some restrictions this year on it, so I am really referring to last years issues, but these are covid measures, so does it mean post covid will it return to the same with them dying from the flu for the same reason.

neville_nobody 26th Aug 2021 02:27


The government could easily fix this by mandating % of workforce be permanent to ensure casuals are only a small part, but they wont do this as it would piss off Coles and Woolies and many other government backers in big business.
That doesn't work. Pre aviation I worked in a highly casualised industry and people were refusing to take full time or permanent part time because it was a pay-cut. Things became a bit nasty as the business expected people to migrate to full time arrangement but the workers refused which ended up increasing the labour cost.

Similar situation in hospitality. Alot of people don't want the full time work and be forced to work. Plenty of staff with side gigs or other responsibilities/interests.
I would be curious in health how many of the casuals would take the full time work with the associated lower pay rate. I'm guessing they can work across a few hospitals and get paid more.

43Inches 26th Aug 2021 02:30


Similar situation in hospitality. Alot of people don't want the full time work and be forced to work. Plenty of staff with side gigs or other responsibilities.
Been there seen them, almost all then get to a point they want a loan for a house or car and then suddenly want full time employment and no-one offers it and they complain bitterly about how unfair it is. They are also very short sighted in that they don't realise for the 25% (much less if part time) extra pay they have opted out of super and holidays.

When Coles offered to take aviation employees on they also dropped the hours on many others working for the company significantly, which being a major casual employer they can do without reason.

MickG0105 26th Aug 2021 02:35


Originally Posted by 43Inches (Post 11101392)
Might depend on your state, Victoria is still very casualised.

Really? Do you have any data to support that contention?

You sure you're not confusing 'casual' with 'part-time' ? There's no dispute that the bulk of the aged care workforce is employed as permanent part-time.

43Inches 26th Aug 2021 02:38


Really? Do you have any data to support that contention?

You sure you're not confusing 'casual' with 'part-time' ? There's no dispute that the bulk of the aged care workforce is employed as permanent part-time.
26th Aug 2021 12:30
Not sure what you are arguing here, of course they are, if you add in administration and those running the show. The main issue is the general staff, which of that possibly the figure is up to 40%. They are the ones changing the bedding and cleaning toilets, and if they get covid, they pass it on to the whole facility in quick time. The Karens that run the facilities and their buddies are all on good full time packages, as well as team leaders and medical staff etc.

You could say a Supermarket has 30% full time staff, but, everyone on the shop floor will be casual or limited part time.

You are right I probably am including part time in those figures, but they are the same issue, just less spread of workplaces.

rattman 26th Aug 2021 03:04


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11101375)
Maybe - and I know I'm off with the fairies here - Australia should learn a lesson and focus on developing greater capacity to train doctors and health care staff locally, and pay them properly.

Know some registered nurses all 3 have moved to australia because they are paid more here than for the NHS, aged care is totally different kettle of fish


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