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-   -   All borders to reopen. (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen.html)

MrScooter 24th Jul 2021 03:51

You argue from a very unique position, Lead Balloon. For the rest of us it looks like inevitably it will be in everybody's personal interest (as well as the community interest) to get vaccinated, with the only debatable category being the very young. We can't start opening up until most of us are vaccinated and we can't all decide the personal risk is such that we should get vaccinated on the same day. What if everyone turned up at the boarding gate at -5? No-one is late?

Bend alot 24th Jul 2021 04:03


Originally Posted by Gnadenburg (Post 11083958)
None of the reluctant vaxers have answered my question as to whether they've lost their livelihoods in aviation due COVID.

So can I ask the following?

- Would you expect and take a government handout as an aviation worker whilst preaching a reluctant vaccination stance?

- Will you accept the opening of borders despite you and I take it your family, not being vaccinated?

I am not an anti vaxer.

I currently have not had a COVID vax nor do I currently plan to (Never had a flu jab either).

My simple understanding of COVID 19 is there are a group of people that are high risk of getting very sick or dying if they catch it - For this I say they need our help with border closures (state and national) until the have the chance to be vaccinated.
Same measures also until all front line workers have the option to get vaccinated.

After this point we can open fully internally (nationally)and give the option to all secondary contact workers that want it to get it, followed by general public getting it if they want it. 3 months after this fully open every border.

IF the vaccines prevented people from catching COVID and being able to transmit it to others - my opinion would be different. If we of the non "High Risk" status wish to risk getting sicker or even die from catching it - bad luck, we had the option. But we have given the chance for every one to get vaccinated if they wish, high rick or not.


If the government closes my work - as a tax payer, I expect compensation for that. Vaccine does not prevent COVID or its spread.

Members of my family (non high risk) have been vaccinated, they have their reasons.

Lead Balloon 24th Jul 2021 04:03

No I'm not in a unique position in Australia, MrScooter. (And there's no such thing as "very" unique.) There are many, many Australians in the outback who are used to being in quite comfortable isolation for protracted periods.

If this is going to be done in rational way - that is, done so as to most effectively mitigate the risk as quickly as practicable - then ALL essential workers and everyone living in aged care have to be vaccinated first. And we haven't been able to manage that even that yet, over a year in. That's not my fault and criticising me won't change that. I won't start on quarantine facilities...

Australia needs 'leadership', not politicians who hide behind advice when it suits then undermine the advisers when it doesn't suit.

All along, only one out of the two essential questions the answers to which determine the rational response to C-19 have been asked and answered - at least publicly. The first question is to medical experts who have been asked how to keep C-19 under control. And they've provided, generally, the correct answers. The second question that dare not speak its name is: How much is acting on the advice going to cost? And I mean real costs.

SHVC 24th Jul 2021 04:48

People protesting in Sydney now, almost stopping short of a riot by the looks. Can you blame them?!
PM Morro is not helping at all. If anyone watched his train wreck speech yesterday he agreed with Dr Murphy’s comments that we may need lockdowns even with higher vaccination rates. People are confused told to get jabbed then told not to get AZ wait for Pfizer now told get AZ again it’s a total mess and some don’t believe covid is even real. There is no end game planned other than arbitrary 80% vaxed population Gladys wants then “they will look at it” that’s not good enough and ppl have a right be be pissed in my opinion. Gov at all levels are sitting on their hands still passing the baton of blame no personal accountability they have not had a cut in income lost their job or had to sell their house and the ppl have had enough

Lead Balloon 24th Jul 2021 05:12

Relax! The Keystone Cops in charge can still manage to arrange for a visa for a crass, racist Pommie 'celebrity'. One of the Cops - Home Affairs Minister Karen Andrews - said:

This does happen from time to time; it actually happens reasonably regularly that state governments approach the federal government on the basis that there is an economic benefit to some people coming in over the quarantine caps.
So sad - for the economy - that the Keystone Cops bowed to political pressure and punted the 'celebrity' back to Pommieland. Maybe Scotty should have asked Jenny whether it was a 'good idea' for the federal government to grant the visa in the first place.

Comedian, writer and journalist Sami Shah is on to a genius idea:

This is an important message to all the Australians trapped overseas who cannot return: try being more cartoonishly racist so that Australian TV producers think you're worth putting on a terrible reality TV show, and the NSW government petitions to have you brought over so Channel Seven can make money from advertisers.

Clare Prop 24th Jul 2021 05:25

For a 420 visa that "entertainers" have to get, a tick in the box from the Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance is required (after paying their fee, of course). It has to be proven that they will create a "net economic benefit".
Meanwhile Ed Sheeran flies in for Michael Gudinski's funeral and locals can't even visit their dying parents here or overseas.
You just have to follow the money..

Lead Balloon 24th Jul 2021 05:33

But we're all equal...

MickG0105 24th Jul 2021 05:51


Originally Posted by Lead Balloon (Post 11084033)
Genuine thanks, Mick.


Originally Posted by MrScooter (Post 11084040)
Thanks for the graphs, MickG0105.

You're welcome.

Now, for the cost conscious, what I think might have been a missing element in the AstraZeneca versus Pfizer vaccine discussion - the relative costs.

Pfizer at $26 a dose is eight times the cost of AstraZeneca at $3.25 a dose. mRNA vaccines are very, very expensive to produce compared to more traditional approaches such as viral vector. That eightfold difference in cost is just the factory-gate production cost. Shipping Pfizer is two to three times more expensive than AstraZeneca due to the fact that it must be shipped frozen as opposed to just refrigerated.

When ATAGI changed the advice on AstraZeneca from for over 50 to for over 60 that cost the best part of $100 million just in swap out costs.


mattyj 24th Jul 2021 06:18

https://violationtracker.goodjobsfir.../parent/pfizer

just pay up already..Pfizer has loads of bills to take care of!

compressor stall 24th Jul 2021 06:19

And there’s a lot more work involved in mixing the vials for Pfizer at the clinic. Various stages need to be timed and everything done in an order to get it into the needle.
Astra you pretty much just grab from the fridge and put into arm.

SHVC 24th Jul 2021 06:40

All this is meaningless now, we are on a trajectory that cant be stopped. Before end of August NSW, like VIC last yr will be locked out of Australia and Victorians traveling freely again which is good.

The difference from NSW now compared to VIC being the people are much much more angry, have had enough and by the looks will not listen to government dribble.

The issue the gov has now is not the virus, its how to get the peoples trust back, get them to listen because they will not stay home now. My opinion someone needs to fall,be it Sco Mo or Gladys one of the two. If the public see some accountability at the top and replace with a new face it might be enough.

Chronic Snoozer 24th Jul 2021 06:58


Originally Posted by MickG0105 (Post 11084005)
The COVID-19 risk on this graphic is based on a case prevalence of 2 active cases per 10,000 population. Nationally, we are running at about 0.67 cases per 10,000 or one third that rate; NSW is running at about that rate of 2 active cases per 10,000 population; Greater Sydney is presently around one third higher than the base rate at 3 cases per 10,000. It is a relatively simple case of adjusting the potential benefit of getting the vaccine by multiplying the base benefit illustrated by one half of your local case rate.

That would be 50% higher would it not?

Lead Balloon 24th Jul 2021 07:09


Originally Posted by MickG0105 (Post 11084069)
You're welcome.

Now, for the cost conscious, what I think might have been a missing element in the AstraZeneca versus Pfizer vaccine discussion - the relative costs.

Pfizer at $26 a dose is eight times the cost of AstraZeneca at $3.25 a dose. mRNA vaccines are very, very expensive to produce compared to more traditional approaches such as viral vector. That eightfold difference in cost is just the factory-gate production cost. Shipping Pfizer is two to three times more expensive than AstraZeneca due to the fact that it must be shipped frozen as opposed to just refrigerated.

When ATAGI changed the advice on AstraZeneca from for over 50 to for over 60 that cost the best part of $100 million just in swap out costs.

And there we have it!

Someone made a decision based on cost. But if only that someone had realised that the real costs of that decision would be vastly more than chump change like the "$100 million" to which you referred.

From January this year, when it still wasn't a race:

Clinical trials for both vaccines have shown they’re broadly safe.

In terms of efficacy, the Pfizer vaccine protects 94.5% of people from developing COVID.

The AstraZeneca shot protects 70% of people on average — still pretty good and on par with the protection given by a flu vaccine in a good year.
The Pfizer vaccine is better (on current data) than AZ.

Aren't Australians worth the better vaccine?

Aussie Bob 24th Jul 2021 07:15

I don't think 80% of Aussies will take the vax. I reckon more like 50% As far as I can see, 50% would be perfect for the following reasons:

The vaccine is classed as experimental in the USA and is released here in Aus under an emergency authorisation.
The vaccine was rushed to market in record time and the usual long term testing and animal trials were skipped
The manufacturers and the government plus the doctors and nurses are all indemnified from any liability regarding the administration of this vax
The vaccine itself is not without its risks and the long term effects are unknown

If 50% of Aussies take this stuff we are setting up the perfect and much needed long term trial that is needed. In 2, 5, 10 and more years we can look back and compare the halves.

Perfect clinical testing I reckon :-)

Green.Dot 24th Jul 2021 07:22

Check it out Aussie Bob… pass it on to your friends too


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....195e9efc0.jpeg

Xeptu 24th Jul 2021 07:29


Originally Posted by Aussie Bob (Post 11084097)
I don't think 80% of Aussies will take the vax. I reckon more like 50% As far as I can see, 50% would be perfect for the following reasons:

The vaccine is classed as experimental in the USA and is released here in Aus under an emergency authorisation.
The vaccine was rushed to market in record time and the usual long term testing and animal trials were skipped
The manufacturers and the government plus the doctors and nurses are all indemnified from any liability regarding the administration of this vax
The vaccine itself is not without its risks and the long term effects are unknown

If 50% of Aussies take this stuff we are setting up the perfect and much needed long term trial that is needed. In 2, 5, 10 and more years we can look back and compare the halves.

Perfect clinical testing I reckon :-)

Assuming of course you can find anyone in 10 years that were neither vaccinated or Infected.

Aussie Bob 24th Jul 2021 07:45

You miss the point totally Xeptu, in 10 years time there will be the vaxed, the unvaxed, those that have been infected and survived (around 99.9% of cases survive) and those that have passed away, both vaxed and unvaxed as well as those who have never had been infected or never had any symptoms.

A perfect trial will have been completed. If you think this virus is going to wipe everyone out I think you have been misled.

Aussie Bob 24th Jul 2021 07:50


Check it out Aussie Bob… pass it on to your friends too
I did check it out, very interesting. Perhaps you should check this out: https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/202...lence-of-evil/

Personally I don't believe or disbelieve either stats, I simply don't know. All I do know is that I don't feel particularly threatened by "the virus". I don't know why that is either, its just the way it is.

Xeptu 24th Jul 2021 08:12


Originally Posted by Aussie Bob (Post 11084114)
You miss the point totally Xeptu, in 10 years time there will be the vaxed, the unvaxed, those that have been infected and survived (around 99.9% of cases survive) and those that have passed away, both vaxed and unvaxed as well as those who have never had been infected or never had any symptoms.

A perfect trial will have been completed. If you think this virus is going to wipe everyone out I think you have been misled.

My point was about "perfect clinical testing" It's not about dying and never has been. you need comparisons for vaccinated never infected, unvaccinated never infected, vaccinated infected.
In ten years we probably wont find a never infected person. Except perhaps lead balloon on his 11,000sq property :)

dr dre 24th Jul 2021 08:18

Another day, another bunch of lies to debunk spread by the anti-vaxxers that have infected this site.


Originally Posted by Aussie Bob (Post 11084097)
The vaccine is classed as experimental in the USA and is released here in Aus under an emergency authorisation.

Rubbish and rubbish


The vaccine was rushed to market in record time and the usual long term testing and animal trials were skipped
Nonsense and bulldust


The manufacturers and the government plus the doctors and nurses are all indemnified from any liability regarding the administration of this vax
Not unusual


The vaccine itself is not without its risks and the long term effects are unknown
Try again


Perfect clinical testing I reckon :-)
Already done



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