QF Shares hit $1.00 Discuss
VC9, "there are no bad troops, only bad officers."
Given the appalling standard of what passes for managment at Qantas, I'm surprised you got any service at all.
To put that another way, Qantas used to be the gold standard for quality of service - with exactly the same staff.
Given the appalling standard of what passes for managment at Qantas, I'm surprised you got any service at all.
To put that another way, Qantas used to be the gold standard for quality of service - with exactly the same staff.
VC9: There is no way you can rub professional people's noses in giant piles of poo for nigh on 2decades and expect them not to become indifferent, uncaring and/or just plain pissed off.
I am a pretty right wing guy, but having witnessed first hand the utterly appalling and incompetent management at Qantas over the last 15 years I can only blame this Clifford/Strong/Dixon/Joyce disaster.
Sure in the old days there were occasional bad guys out there, but now it's good guys who have been treated appallingly by idiots who know nothing one too many times.
How would you feel if you complain to morons about the new 744 config (something crazy like 2toilets per aircraft) only to be told 'but the passengers love it - give it time the toilet/pax ratios have been tested as fine' (just like every other nonsensical idiotic decision these incompetents come up with) only to have to clean up a BUSINESS class pax after they crapped themselves queuing for the toilet. And this garbage has been going on for YEARS. I am sure the 22yo bus school grad that came up theses great ideas has extensive experience in customer service and also (like everyone else) will be long gone when the real staff have to solve the problems with the pennies in the dollar money bank that is left after everyone has earned their great bonuses.
It makes every employee of Qantas physically sick witnessing this train wreck...
I am a pretty right wing guy, but having witnessed first hand the utterly appalling and incompetent management at Qantas over the last 15 years I can only blame this Clifford/Strong/Dixon/Joyce disaster.
Sure in the old days there were occasional bad guys out there, but now it's good guys who have been treated appallingly by idiots who know nothing one too many times.
How would you feel if you complain to morons about the new 744 config (something crazy like 2toilets per aircraft) only to be told 'but the passengers love it - give it time the toilet/pax ratios have been tested as fine' (just like every other nonsensical idiotic decision these incompetents come up with) only to have to clean up a BUSINESS class pax after they crapped themselves queuing for the toilet. And this garbage has been going on for YEARS. I am sure the 22yo bus school grad that came up theses great ideas has extensive experience in customer service and also (like everyone else) will be long gone when the real staff have to solve the problems with the pennies in the dollar money bank that is left after everyone has earned their great bonuses.
It makes every employee of Qantas physically sick witnessing this train wreck...
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: BrisVegas
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VC9 there are some great staff at Qantas but most have just had enough of the terrible management and just can't be bothered anymore.
I left Qantas 6 years ago, awful place to work, toxic environment...far too many managers...ZERO leaders.
Friends who still work there tell me its far, far worse now.
The clear needs to start soon otherwise Qantas will not survive.
Fly Virgin next time - you might be pleasantly surprised.
I left Qantas 6 years ago, awful place to work, toxic environment...far too many managers...ZERO leaders.
Friends who still work there tell me its far, far worse now.
The clear needs to start soon otherwise Qantas will not survive.
Fly Virgin next time - you might be pleasantly surprised.
QF INT JETSTAR INT
2009 Load Factor 81.2 73.9
2010 " 82.9 74.2
2011 " 82.7 77.6
2012 " 82.2 75.0
These are the official figures. So, what i dont understand is how can we go from 2011 and 82.7 load factor to 2012 and 82.2 load factor which is a drop of .05% and equates to a profit drop from $210 million to $450 million or and increase of 114% in the loss year on year for international. Now either yield has plummeted (crap) or some porky pies are been told ( i know that couldnt happen in Qantas). Also if Qantas International loses that sort of money on 82.2 load factor what is Jetstar losing on 75% with its yields. I know the answer to that and that is we will never know.
2009 Load Factor 81.2 73.9
2010 " 82.9 74.2
2011 " 82.7 77.6
2012 " 82.2 75.0
These are the official figures. So, what i dont understand is how can we go from 2011 and 82.7 load factor to 2012 and 82.2 load factor which is a drop of .05% and equates to a profit drop from $210 million to $450 million or and increase of 114% in the loss year on year for international. Now either yield has plummeted (crap) or some porky pies are been told ( i know that couldnt happen in Qantas). Also if Qantas International loses that sort of money on 82.2 load factor what is Jetstar losing on 75% with its yields. I know the answer to that and that is we will never know.
Last edited by dragon man; 10th Jun 2012 at 08:23.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QF Management are not doing a bad job "strategically".
Most of you have no idea of the bigger picture here which is a real blessing.
What.... you want to sack the management and the board and hire people that will meet short goals measured by key performance indicators or something similar. Then you will feel all warm and cozy and important.
How bigger loss did Sony just post? And how can you consider QF shares trading at a 50 percent discount (Reference what - their list price???).
QF are making some hard decisions, part of Managements salary covers them for the damage to their further professional career being at the helm during tough times.
The long term brand, vision and finance is in place!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only people worried about "the airline" is the staff. This is an easy problem to fix, esp with a 3 billion dollar war chest.
The public and the business community have been dealing with offshoring and globalisation for 20 plus years. As I said previously, the general public don't care about your problem - everyone else has been dealing with it for years. Its going to be fun to watch the spoilt little "rich kids" cry poor.
Most of you have no idea of the bigger picture here which is a real blessing.
What.... you want to sack the management and the board and hire people that will meet short goals measured by key performance indicators or something similar. Then you will feel all warm and cozy and important.
How bigger loss did Sony just post? And how can you consider QF shares trading at a 50 percent discount (Reference what - their list price???).
QF are making some hard decisions, part of Managements salary covers them for the damage to their further professional career being at the helm during tough times.
The long term brand, vision and finance is in place!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only people worried about "the airline" is the staff. This is an easy problem to fix, esp with a 3 billion dollar war chest.
The public and the business community have been dealing with offshoring and globalisation for 20 plus years. As I said previously, the general public don't care about your problem - everyone else has been dealing with it for years. Its going to be fun to watch the spoilt little "rich kids" cry poor.
CBW: Airline staff have been the ultimate offshore business for the last 40 years. The 'spoilt little rich kids' you are referring to (I assume QF staff) are in fact leaving in droves to pursue richer spoils with almost everyone else.
From pilots perspective I have it on very good authority that QF pay rates on anything under the 744 are paid considerably less than their O/S compatriots, the 744 equal to 5% above and the 380 is a winner with 5-10% more than their competitors. Putting this in perspective the $AUD is dramatically higher than when these rates were negotiated. I know for a fact there are rare Jetstar 330 drivers on $400k so the payscale argument is plain wrong. And this is proved with more than 1 pilot every week leaving QF for anywhere else - including driving coal trains because they are simply sick of the bill****...
No one but a totally uneducated commentator or a management groupie could support these incompetent Enron wannabes. They have zero understanding of the business they are in the final stages of ruining and just how incompetent they were/are will be made plain when the epitaphs are written.
From pilots perspective I have it on very good authority that QF pay rates on anything under the 744 are paid considerably less than their O/S compatriots, the 744 equal to 5% above and the 380 is a winner with 5-10% more than their competitors. Putting this in perspective the $AUD is dramatically higher than when these rates were negotiated. I know for a fact there are rare Jetstar 330 drivers on $400k so the payscale argument is plain wrong. And this is proved with more than 1 pilot every week leaving QF for anywhere else - including driving coal trains because they are simply sick of the bill****...
No one but a totally uneducated commentator or a management groupie could support these incompetent Enron wannabes. They have zero understanding of the business they are in the final stages of ruining and just how incompetent they were/are will be made plain when the epitaphs are written.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Age: 61
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder if Sheldon came out swinging in an effort to avert attention from a story in today's Sun-Herald about ramp staff - who would be members of the TWU - in Sydney (allegedly) accessing porn etc?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hahahaaaaa
"No one but a totally uneducated commentator or a management groupie could support these incompetent Enron wannabes".
Brilliant statement from a pilot's perspective.
Enron has NOTHING in common with QF.
Bring on the drones before pilot's become better than taxi drivers at running the economy.
"No one but a totally uneducated commentator or a management groupie could support these incompetent Enron wannabes".
Brilliant statement from a pilot's perspective.
Enron has NOTHING in common with QF.
Bring on the drones before pilot's become better than taxi drivers at running the economy.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: australia
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CBW. I'm wondering if you were joking with your post, but I'll take a risk and bite.
Where is your evidence of this? Because, the share price indicates dramatically that what you suggest is wrong.
Sorry fella, but your post suggest that your bigger picture looks like a Pro Hart carpet!
Yes, most of us want to sack the ENTIRE management. No, we don't want to hire people who are short term goal oriented, and I haven't seen anyone suggest this except yourself!
I'm not sure what Sony, or the local Deli, or anyone else has to do with QF's specific problems?
Oh, boo hoo! The damage that has come about has been caused almost entirely by managements "hard" (read hopeless) decisions! Why should shareholders foot the bill for clearly incompetant managers?
Now that is one of the most frightening things I've ever read...
You aren't serious are you? The value of the shares in the airline is less than the "reputed" 3 billion dollar war chest.
Maybe true. But now it's coming back to bite them in the ass. Because like it or not, our country is less and less like that lucky country I once heard of.
Others have dealt with your woeful inaccuracy with this. But your post shows a level of spite which removes any credibility you might have had.
QF Management are not doing a bad job "strategically".
Most of you have no idea of the bigger picture here which is a real blessing.
What.... you want to sack the management and the board and hire people that will meet short goals measured by key performance indicators or something similar. Then you will feel all warm and cozy and important.
How bigger loss did Sony just post? And how can you consider QF shares trading at a 50 percent discount (Reference what - their list price???).
QF are making some hard decisions, part of Managements salary covers them for the damage to their further professional career being at the helm during tough times.
The long term brand, vision and finance is in place!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only people worried about "the airline" is the staff. This is an easy problem to fix, esp with a 3 billion dollar war chest.
The public and the business community have been dealing with offshoring and globalisation for 20 plus years.
As I said previously, the general public don't care about your problem - everyone else has been dealing with it for years. Its going to be fun to watch the spoilt little "rich kids" cry poor.
CBW: FWIW I lead several lives. You saying Enron has nothing to do with QF proves how little you understand the Qantas 'Enron wannabe' comment. I don't care anymore because I am out, but these guys are indefensible. Incompetent and should be criminally negligent. I can tell you this. If I treated my staff (many of whom have no clue I fly) the way these idiots do, I would have no staff inside a day and my competitors would ensure I had no businesses within a few short weeks. What the banks would then do would leave nothing but dry sun bleached bones on a desert plain.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I accept the "rich kids" comment was perhaps inappropriate.
I guess it was in reference to generally superior conditions to the average worker QF staff have traditionally enjoyed.
Salary is one thing, productivity is another. I have numerous S/O mates than file large income tax returns i.e. 180G and have weeks, even months not working in the last 3 years. A previous post regarding an 8 hour strategy would remove the need for S/O's altogether!!!
Anyway, most of the last post is so difficult to respond to it would be akin to showing a grade one math student a mathematical proof of a calculus derivative. Get back to me when you understand economics, geopolitics, economic warfare, have an MBA in business management as a minimum and yes have studied companies like Sony, Kodak and Enron. A little foreign policy and corporate law both domestically and internationally wouldn't hurt either.
Pilot or not, and getting back to the original thread, QF is a great company with a proud history and numerous competitive advantages despite what some might think in the SHORT TERM.
I won't be buying into any more posts or rants - I will be buying up QF stock because whether you believe in value investing or an efficient market, at current prices its an incredible buy.
Happy Flying to all.
I guess it was in reference to generally superior conditions to the average worker QF staff have traditionally enjoyed.
Salary is one thing, productivity is another. I have numerous S/O mates than file large income tax returns i.e. 180G and have weeks, even months not working in the last 3 years. A previous post regarding an 8 hour strategy would remove the need for S/O's altogether!!!
Anyway, most of the last post is so difficult to respond to it would be akin to showing a grade one math student a mathematical proof of a calculus derivative. Get back to me when you understand economics, geopolitics, economic warfare, have an MBA in business management as a minimum and yes have studied companies like Sony, Kodak and Enron. A little foreign policy and corporate law both domestically and internationally wouldn't hurt either.
Pilot or not, and getting back to the original thread, QF is a great company with a proud history and numerous competitive advantages despite what some might think in the SHORT TERM.
I won't be buying into any more posts or rants - I will be buying up QF stock because whether you believe in value investing or an efficient market, at current prices its an incredible buy.
Happy Flying to all.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some of you need to stop and think for a minute,the statements above about QF needing a restructure are based on what AJ and company are saying.
Is it possible that they are not telling the truth ?.
Many have alleged that:
* many profitable routes have been gifted to one star and jitconnect,
* the books have been cooked, many costs have been put onto QF International that is not theirs, asian one star cabin crew, fuel, maintenance etc etc.
So is QF International really the black sheep ?, I do not think so.
Does QF International really need restructuring, an intelligent person could conclude that nothing has changed other that the company trying to destroy QF International as a means to reduce pay and conditions, and reduce them quite considerably.
The whole of QF has always been profitable, what has changed, the introduction of one star and the comparative substandard pay and conditions.
AJ and company racing to become a LCC.
JB and company evolving into a premium carrier.
Who's going to win this race ?.
Is it possible that they are not telling the truth ?.
Many have alleged that:
* many profitable routes have been gifted to one star and jitconnect,
* the books have been cooked, many costs have been put onto QF International that is not theirs, asian one star cabin crew, fuel, maintenance etc etc.
So is QF International really the black sheep ?, I do not think so.
Does QF International really need restructuring, an intelligent person could conclude that nothing has changed other that the company trying to destroy QF International as a means to reduce pay and conditions, and reduce them quite considerably.
The whole of QF has always been profitable, what has changed, the introduction of one star and the comparative substandard pay and conditions.
AJ and company racing to become a LCC.
JB and company evolving into a premium carrier.
Who's going to win this race ?.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Big Whiskey
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I heard a story about how Qantas department managers are unwilling to take the time to investigate bogus invoices received. If they do spend time looking into inflated false invoices from suppliers then they miss those MBA mantra KPI's that Joyce so loves.
Then they get a please explain.
You wonder why QF is such a mess..
Blue Foot
Then they get a please explain.
You wonder why QF is such a mess..
Blue Foot
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas has high staff related costs because of complex agreements/EBA's. Consider the pilot long haul document of some 750 pages to the VA one of about 20.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Pretend I know nothing about aviation for a minute.....yes, it is mostly true 
Business 101. Three core groups, these are Shareholders the customers and the staff (front line folks, not all the excessive middle and upper management ranks but they also count to a lessor extent.
Look after the Staff, who Look After the Customers, who Look After the Shareholders.
Simple things like staff travel, it is not all about pay, having a connected and listening management core. Listen to the customers
.
This has been here before.....but this is how it works, no matter what business you are in, and one with high risk and low margins it is ever more so critical.
Right now it seems I need to apply for the top job at ASA and QF. It is not easy work....but it is a simple philosophy. Borgs seems to understand.....I bet he still can't believe his luck!
Business 101. Three core groups, these are Shareholders the customers and the staff (front line folks, not all the excessive middle and upper management ranks but they also count to a lessor extent.
Look after the Staff, who Look After the Customers, who Look After the Shareholders.
Simple things like staff travel, it is not all about pay, having a connected and listening management core. Listen to the customers
. This has been here before.....but this is how it works, no matter what business you are in, and one with high risk and low margins it is ever more so critical.
Right now it seems I need to apply for the top job at ASA and QF. It is not easy work....but it is a simple philosophy. Borgs seems to understand.....I bet he still can't believe his luck!
CWB: Business is simple. Make people happy enough with a service you provide to pay you more than it costs to provide.
MBA's are waay overvalued and no wonder you are so happy to buy QF because QF has no shortage of experts who have great KPI's but think its OK in Business Class for one tea bag to make 5 cups of tea and passengers to crap themselves queuing for toilets, but hey, I only operate in the real world with small budgets and real people who don't need spreadsheets and ppt presentations to prove to their staff they know what they are doing....
In a way I regret not being one of these clowns. They are deomonstrably incompetent yet have the ability to talk their way into mega million bonus packages. I have to earn my money every day and in Qantas prove I am competent to an extraordinary degree just to be allowed in the door. In my other life I exist through wits, quick footedness and empathy with staff. I screw up badly and I don't have massive budgets and large staff numbers to hide behind. Who is the fool? Apart from the freedoms I have (enough cash, being the boss without boards etc) I am clearly the idiot. However, my success in life (such as it is) has been brought about purely through the pursuit of excellence. If you cannot excel or strive for excellence you are nothing in my book. This is where the current cadre of QF management are total failures on every level. And why, incidentally I cannot stomach even looking at their hideous features anymore.
Keep buying QF - someone has to be there to fulfil the shorts
MBA's are waay overvalued and no wonder you are so happy to buy QF because QF has no shortage of experts who have great KPI's but think its OK in Business Class for one tea bag to make 5 cups of tea and passengers to crap themselves queuing for toilets, but hey, I only operate in the real world with small budgets and real people who don't need spreadsheets and ppt presentations to prove to their staff they know what they are doing....
In a way I regret not being one of these clowns. They are deomonstrably incompetent yet have the ability to talk their way into mega million bonus packages. I have to earn my money every day and in Qantas prove I am competent to an extraordinary degree just to be allowed in the door. In my other life I exist through wits, quick footedness and empathy with staff. I screw up badly and I don't have massive budgets and large staff numbers to hide behind. Who is the fool? Apart from the freedoms I have (enough cash, being the boss without boards etc) I am clearly the idiot. However, my success in life (such as it is) has been brought about purely through the pursuit of excellence. If you cannot excel or strive for excellence you are nothing in my book. This is where the current cadre of QF management are total failures on every level. And why, incidentally I cannot stomach even looking at their hideous features anymore.
Keep buying QF - someone has to be there to fulfil the shorts
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
And here is another one, and a quicker example of what is required.
The last couple of seconds are funny....but deadly serious!
The last couple of seconds are funny....but deadly serious!
Last edited by Jabawocky; 10th Jun 2012 at 11:33.
Nunc est bibendum
Fly by wire, I have no knowledge of the DJ pilots EBA so can't comment with any authority on what it consists of.
I can confirm that the QF EBA is currently 508 pages. For some strange reason, much of that is duplicated from other parts of the document. It's available for download online if you want to read it. It used to be wagenet.gov.au but not sure if that's still the address.
There are also a number of things in our contract that DJ would have but probably not part of their core pilot contract. As an example, I suspect that DJ would have their check and trainers appointments and so on as part of a separate document or contract given to each trainer. That probably outlines their tenure, access to flying, trading trips, etc. For QF ours are all in the main award. Why are these things there? Because at some stage people on both sides of the equation have rorted the system as it was understood and thus it was put down in black and white.
So sure, we could get rid of HEAPS of stuff in our award and just put those pilots who do various office, technical, training roles on separate contracts that are an addition to our EBA but at the end of the day, it's all in the EBA.
So yes it's 508 pages. However a lot of it doesn't apply to the majority of crew on a day by day basis- particularly the bits that still apply to Flight Engineers! There are areas where it can improve and be shortened however given the lack of trust that exists, I reckon the trend will be for more regulation rather than less.
I can confirm that the QF EBA is currently 508 pages. For some strange reason, much of that is duplicated from other parts of the document. It's available for download online if you want to read it. It used to be wagenet.gov.au but not sure if that's still the address.
There are also a number of things in our contract that DJ would have but probably not part of their core pilot contract. As an example, I suspect that DJ would have their check and trainers appointments and so on as part of a separate document or contract given to each trainer. That probably outlines their tenure, access to flying, trading trips, etc. For QF ours are all in the main award. Why are these things there? Because at some stage people on both sides of the equation have rorted the system as it was understood and thus it was put down in black and white.
So sure, we could get rid of HEAPS of stuff in our award and just put those pilots who do various office, technical, training roles on separate contracts that are an addition to our EBA but at the end of the day, it's all in the EBA.
So yes it's 508 pages. However a lot of it doesn't apply to the majority of crew on a day by day basis- particularly the bits that still apply to Flight Engineers!
There are areas where it can improve and be shortened however given the lack of trust that exists, I reckon the trend will be for more regulation rather than less.
Last edited by Keg; 10th Jun 2012 at 11:48.
Quote:
Qantas has high staff related costs because of complex agreements/EBA's. Consider the pilot long haul document of some 750 pages to the VA one of about 20.
Is this actually correct??
Qantas has high staff related costs because of complex agreements/EBA's. Consider the pilot long haul document of some 750 pages to the VA one of about 20.
Is this actually correct??
