MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
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OK, so the FWA have decreed a termination of industrial action. The lockout is stopped and flight are to resume in order to put a stop to the turmoil the Australian public are experiencing.
Without smartarse trolling replies, I would like to ask if there is the ability to appeal the termination decision to, say, the High Court given that the FWA has said that the PIA to date has not been of such a disruptive nature as QF spin would have us all believe?
AWBC
Without smartarse trolling replies, I would like to ask if there is the ability to appeal the termination decision to, say, the High Court given that the FWA has said that the PIA to date has not been of such a disruptive nature as QF spin would have us all believe?
AWBC
Last edited by AWB_Clerk; 30th Oct 2011 at 16:17.
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AJ won this dispute because he had the PR.
Unions need to step up and get the word out. Forget the pay rise and all the little stuff that doesn't matter.
Make this a single issue fight. Offshoring. Hammer that one issue until it's sorted, then move onto the next issue -but with no more dispute allowed, I'm not sure if ANY PR is allowed now.
Very displeased with FWA, unions played by the rules and end up getting kicked in the teeth. AJ gets to keep the status quo, which is exactly what he wanted. Arbitration will be a total waste of time, everyone may get a token pay rise while the airline continues to be gutted.
Unions need to step up and get the word out. Forget the pay rise and all the little stuff that doesn't matter.
Make this a single issue fight. Offshoring. Hammer that one issue until it's sorted, then move onto the next issue -but with no more dispute allowed, I'm not sure if ANY PR is allowed now.
Very displeased with FWA, unions played by the rules and end up getting kicked in the teeth. AJ gets to keep the status quo, which is exactly what he wanted. Arbitration will be a total waste of time, everyone may get a token pay rise while the airline continues to be gutted.
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Hamma
Well put, you nailed it. Oz is a great place but boy, how much it's changed in the 20 years I have been visiting very regularly.
From the friendly down to earth in a beautifull environment, Sydeny' s become a city of greed and stupidity and one of the most expensive in the world at that.
QF employees, do not realize there is a world out there.
What this little irish mongrel is doing is dispicable and QF employees did see what was coming.
The man is mean and crazy and doesn't give 2 farts about you. He'll do you without a second thought...........and that sucks.
How your politicians can look themselves in the mirror remains a baffle.
Well put, you nailed it. Oz is a great place but boy, how much it's changed in the 20 years I have been visiting very regularly.
From the friendly down to earth in a beautifull environment, Sydeny' s become a city of greed and stupidity and one of the most expensive in the world at that.
QF employees, do not realize there is a world out there.
What this little irish mongrel is doing is dispicable and QF employees did see what was coming.
The man is mean and crazy and doesn't give 2 farts about you. He'll do you without a second thought...........and that sucks.
How your politicians can look themselves in the mirror remains a baffle.
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Be very careful out there now! Having been through an industrial dispute where the airline management did something very similar it led to a number of people calling for unauthorised action i.e. mass sickouts, work to rule etc. We were told in no uncertain terms that this would result in immediate dismissal.
It would not suprise me if AJ's next move is to make an 'example' of someone who in frustration breaches a minor rule when calling in 'sick' after this debacle.
It would not suprise me if AJ's next move is to make an 'example' of someone who in frustration breaches a minor rule when calling in 'sick' after this debacle.
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"And the leader of Qantas shouts: Victory!"
Google translate into German:
"Und der Führer der Qantas ruft: Sieg!"
Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it???
Well, let's hope this is not a victory for this destructive QF board. It isn't over yet. I am really angry at this management for putting staff and passengers through this. What huge damage this will have done to the brand. That damage cannot be estimated in $$$ losses per day. These guys are maniacs.
Google translate into German:
"Und der Führer der Qantas ruft: Sieg!"
Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it???
Well, let's hope this is not a victory for this destructive QF board. It isn't over yet. I am really angry at this management for putting staff and passengers through this. What huge damage this will have done to the brand. That damage cannot be estimated in $$$ losses per day. These guys are maniacs.
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no wonder
its pretty much obvious fact that big corporation like Quantas never lose especially against ordinary employees.
its almost the same as what is seen around the rest of the developed world. huge corporations always invest a lot on election of law makers and politicians so that they make sure their vested interest of seeking profit never derails from its path. Australia is no different in this regard. AJ and board members knew this calculation very well. contrary to what looked like to some observers, they r not stupid enough to shoot their own foot by grounding all planes. the only reason they did that is bcoz the return from the outcome of the mess we witnessed is much higher than the loss of daily income of around 20 mil. usd
its the new world order. HAVES always win against HAVE NOTS.
majority doesn't matter anymore. the rule of the game is simple; keep building ur wealth and make sure the influential lobbyists r doing their job and all will b well no matter how much the majority continues to resist.
whats next for Quantas ? outsource operation to asia to abuse cheap labour ? why not, as long as it brings in higher profit for shareholders. who cares about Asians working as slaves and at same Australians who will b losing their job.
some blamed Quantas employees of being greedy asking for more during such economic hardship. then how come AJ and other executives get as much as 71% benefit package increment ?
''Fairness'' is a word that has been deleted from the dictionary of big corporations long ago. CONSPIRACY, LOBBYING, ILLUSIVE CORRUPTION r the new champion words.
its almost the same as what is seen around the rest of the developed world. huge corporations always invest a lot on election of law makers and politicians so that they make sure their vested interest of seeking profit never derails from its path. Australia is no different in this regard. AJ and board members knew this calculation very well. contrary to what looked like to some observers, they r not stupid enough to shoot their own foot by grounding all planes. the only reason they did that is bcoz the return from the outcome of the mess we witnessed is much higher than the loss of daily income of around 20 mil. usd
its the new world order. HAVES always win against HAVE NOTS.
majority doesn't matter anymore. the rule of the game is simple; keep building ur wealth and make sure the influential lobbyists r doing their job and all will b well no matter how much the majority continues to resist.whats next for Quantas ? outsource operation to asia to abuse cheap labour ? why not, as long as it brings in higher profit for shareholders. who cares about Asians working as slaves and at same Australians who will b losing their job.
some blamed Quantas employees of being greedy asking for more during such economic hardship. then how come AJ and other executives get as much as 71% benefit package increment ?
''Fairness'' is a word that has been deleted from the dictionary of big corporations long ago. CONSPIRACY, LOBBYING, ILLUSIVE CORRUPTION r the new champion words.
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Qantas played the safety card.
Will Qantas conduct a risk assessment of the company climate to assure the board, the shareholders and the travelling public that it is safe to recommence flying?
Will CASA require such an assessment?
No one need respond, I know the answer to both questions.
Will Qantas conduct a risk assessment of the company climate to assure the board, the shareholders and the travelling public that it is safe to recommence flying?
Will CASA require such an assessment?
No one need respond, I know the answer to both questions.
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That will be hard when you have a corrupt board running the company who only care about money.
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Dark times for Qantas staff , the start of massive changes happened last Saturday.
What do you do as a customer ? If I fly Qantas in the future am I supporting that little irish CEO or the pilots , engineers and staff , some of whom I grew up with and learnt to fly with ?
I was one of those customers who was prepared to pay a premium over the budget carriers to fly on an aircraft flown by pilots that are trained to a high standard and maintained by people that could read a maintenance manual written in English and actually understand what they read (I've worked in Asia a long time now where in some countries one person reads the manual and passes down his interpretation to his staff and successors)
How many acceptable total hull losses are considered 'industry normal' in future corporate plans ?
If the workers and unions are smart the best way to replace this current group of senior managers is to look for breaches in the law regarding material disclosure that may have occurred over the preceding few weeks (it could even be months)
To the staff of Qantas , I don't think the idea of inflight announcements was professional and the staff were also willing to strand passengers at short notice , I'm not in you're shoes so I don't understand your frustrations but both sides of this dispute are willing to inconvenience your customers , some of whom have been flying with you for decades (like me), Joyce just did it to the max.
Brand loyalty will only be stretched so far , if the Qantas 'family' is now totally dysfunctional (as it sounds) and management and staff focusing on the 'war within' rather than making sure the airline is running safely I think I will be staying away for a few months until I hear a bit of harmony again.
What a mess ...
.
What do you do as a customer ? If I fly Qantas in the future am I supporting that little irish CEO or the pilots , engineers and staff , some of whom I grew up with and learnt to fly with ?
I was one of those customers who was prepared to pay a premium over the budget carriers to fly on an aircraft flown by pilots that are trained to a high standard and maintained by people that could read a maintenance manual written in English and actually understand what they read (I've worked in Asia a long time now where in some countries one person reads the manual and passes down his interpretation to his staff and successors)
How many acceptable total hull losses are considered 'industry normal' in future corporate plans ?
If the workers and unions are smart the best way to replace this current group of senior managers is to look for breaches in the law regarding material disclosure that may have occurred over the preceding few weeks (it could even be months)
To the staff of Qantas , I don't think the idea of inflight announcements was professional and the staff were also willing to strand passengers at short notice , I'm not in you're shoes so I don't understand your frustrations but both sides of this dispute are willing to inconvenience your customers , some of whom have been flying with you for decades (like me), Joyce just did it to the max.
Brand loyalty will only be stretched so far , if the Qantas 'family' is now totally dysfunctional (as it sounds) and management and staff focusing on the 'war within' rather than making sure the airline is running safely I think I will be staying away for a few months until I hear a bit of harmony again.
What a mess ...
.
Last edited by aseanaero; 30th Oct 2011 at 19:28.
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Congratulations to Mr Joyce. Brilliant
Well first of all I am a Qantas pilot.
If you can sit back and look what Joyce has done, it has to rank as one of the smartest industrial moves anywhere in the world. You really have to hand it to him as a brilliant strategist. - You don't have to agree with what he is doing, that is another thing.
Lets look at what he has done. ....
He has locked out the workers. A move that may or may not be legal. Well it is not. He is in breach of so many laws he could be put in behind bars for a long time.....
Well not really. He grounded the airline. - yep he can do that anytime, he is the CEO. And he scared the government / workers / unions that he had a result BEFORE he locked out a single worker. Yep no one was ever locked out. so he was not in breach of the law. Kudos to Alan
He has killed the governments IR laws in 48 hours. Yep what Abbot has been trying to do for so long, Alan has done in just 48 hours. Now all you have to do to ban your employees from doing anything is to lock them out over the weekend. Kudos for Alan
He has killed any hope of Gillard ever getting back in.
Wondered why he told the media that he gave the prime minister 3 hours to respond to a phone call? (Well he didn't do that OW told the media that, so Alan has a fall girl.) He did that to throw fuel on the fire. The ALP is going down. What do you do to get political favours from the new government? You throw kids overboard, or give the PM 3 hours to answer a phone call when she is hosting the heads of state, and has no time to consult with her advisors and obtain legal advice. The phone message was probably something like "Hi, call AJ it is really important." Not if I don't get a response in 3 hours I am shutting down the Australian air network.
So just how much will Abbot owe Joyce for humiliating Gillard in front of the world leaders?
So in 48 hours he has removed any possibility of strikes, work to rule, PA's. He has killed the governments IR laws - no more PIA.
He has deeply wounded Gillard.
So the mileage he will get with the new government will enable him to do anything with the airline. Expect
1: 50 flight attendants to Pax (like NZ and the US)
Expect softening of the QF sales act.
Expect modified flight and duty times.
Yep it was a brilliant move. He has out smarted all of the unions and the government.
I just wish he was working for the good of the company........
If you can sit back and look what Joyce has done, it has to rank as one of the smartest industrial moves anywhere in the world. You really have to hand it to him as a brilliant strategist. - You don't have to agree with what he is doing, that is another thing.
Lets look at what he has done. ....
He has locked out the workers. A move that may or may not be legal. Well it is not. He is in breach of so many laws he could be put in behind bars for a long time.....
Well not really. He grounded the airline. - yep he can do that anytime, he is the CEO. And he scared the government / workers / unions that he had a result BEFORE he locked out a single worker. Yep no one was ever locked out. so he was not in breach of the law. Kudos to Alan
He has killed the governments IR laws in 48 hours. Yep what Abbot has been trying to do for so long, Alan has done in just 48 hours. Now all you have to do to ban your employees from doing anything is to lock them out over the weekend. Kudos for Alan
He has killed any hope of Gillard ever getting back in.
Wondered why he told the media that he gave the prime minister 3 hours to respond to a phone call? (Well he didn't do that OW told the media that, so Alan has a fall girl.) He did that to throw fuel on the fire. The ALP is going down. What do you do to get political favours from the new government? You throw kids overboard, or give the PM 3 hours to answer a phone call when she is hosting the heads of state, and has no time to consult with her advisors and obtain legal advice. The phone message was probably something like "Hi, call AJ it is really important." Not if I don't get a response in 3 hours I am shutting down the Australian air network.
So just how much will Abbot owe Joyce for humiliating Gillard in front of the world leaders?
So in 48 hours he has removed any possibility of strikes, work to rule, PA's. He has killed the governments IR laws - no more PIA.
He has deeply wounded Gillard.
So the mileage he will get with the new government will enable him to do anything with the airline. Expect
1: 50 flight attendants to Pax (like NZ and the US)
Expect softening of the QF sales act.
Expect modified flight and duty times.
Yep it was a brilliant move. He has out smarted all of the unions and the government.
I just wish he was working for the good of the company........
I simply won't considering even looking at a Qantas group ticket in the future if I have to pay for it, the brand is now totally destroyed, talk about a sad loose of a national icon, disgracefull to say the least.
Fly Virgin !
The government also deserves to be thrown out over this saga as it's quite obvvious who's pissing in who's pocket.
Fly Virgin !
The government also deserves to be thrown out over this saga as it's quite obvvious who's pissing in who's pocket.
I don't think your assessment is correct but there are no winners so far, certainly not the company, staff or passengers. I doubt the Board have the same level of shareholder confidence they had a week ago.
The full ramifications of the Qantas Board decision are yet to play out over coming months. I would not think the Qantas Board have too many friends on either side of Parliament today.
It would be a weak Government that rescinds the Qantas Sale Act, indeed Senator Xenaphon is proposing an amendment Bill to strengthen the Act.
The full ramifications of the Qantas Board decision are yet to play out over coming months. I would not think the Qantas Board have too many friends on either side of Parliament today.
It would be a weak Government that rescinds the Qantas Sale Act, indeed Senator Xenaphon is proposing an amendment Bill to strengthen the Act.
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Looks like the spineless little irishman got what he wanted, Fair Work Australia ordered an end to his lockout and industrial action for 42 days.
If they hadnt, qf would have lost so much money it couldnt recover.
I think he was expecting Fair Work or the Govt to step in, otherwise his job and reputation would be mud.
Anyone believe the loss claims qf international is making, or are they fiddling the books and sending money to lowlife j*, then claiming they need to layoff 1000 staff and reduce pay.
Something smells in qf management, maybe its the dirty millions joyce is been "compensated".
Dont let this greedy, incompetant little irishman and his incompetant board win. He is selling off qf from beneath you and destroying 91 years of experience for his own gain.
I really wonder how long his job would have lasted if no-one had intervened with the lockout.
If they hadnt, qf would have lost so much money it couldnt recover.
I think he was expecting Fair Work or the Govt to step in, otherwise his job and reputation would be mud.
Anyone believe the loss claims qf international is making, or are they fiddling the books and sending money to lowlife j*, then claiming they need to layoff 1000 staff and reduce pay.
Something smells in qf management, maybe its the dirty millions joyce is been "compensated".
Dont let this greedy, incompetant little irishman and his incompetant board win. He is selling off qf from beneath you and destroying 91 years of experience for his own gain.
I really wonder how long his job would have lasted if no-one had intervened with the lockout.
Last edited by Mr Pilot 2007; 30th Oct 2011 at 20:26.
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Termination or suspensions, who cares.
You can still choose to do overtime or not, an individual choosing to work to rule is not illegal, how do they prove it ?. (as long as it is not ordered by your union). Work-to-rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Working to rule is meeting the bare minimum requirements of your employment contract, nothing more.
This is far from over.
You can still choose to do overtime or not, an individual choosing to work to rule is not illegal, how do they prove it ?. (as long as it is not ordered by your union). Work-to-rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Working to rule is meeting the bare minimum requirements of your employment contract, nothing more.
This is far from over.
Last edited by Shed Dog Tosser; 30th Oct 2011 at 20:35.
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The leaks from QF about the phone calls to the PM's office whether true or not, are certainly just an arse covering exercise. This will undoubtedly inflame govt relations and if current govt lasts another 18 months then the Rat still has to deal with them.
If I was a mean, nasty and vindictive pollie, I would unleash ASIC, ACCC and CASA on this lot for a war of attrition.
The thought is very appealling because you cannot tell me there hasnt been a breach of Corps Law somewhere in this mess. Have heard rumours of catering being cancelled last week but cannot find source, so that would be an interesting fact if it could be proven.
This is far from over and the Irishman wont be happy until the whole Rat is crushed under Orange Jelly.
If I was a mean, nasty and vindictive pollie, I would unleash ASIC, ACCC and CASA on this lot for a war of attrition.
The thought is very appealling because you cannot tell me there hasnt been a breach of Corps Law somewhere in this mess. Have heard rumours of catering being cancelled last week but cannot find source, so that would be an interesting fact if it could be proven.
This is far from over and the Irishman wont be happy until the whole Rat is crushed under Orange Jelly.
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The war is definitely over. He will wait it out now and nothing can be done.
DoNt make an agreement during the bargaining period, Wait for the umpire again, be told to sign a 2% pay deal and don't have to sign any work security clauses. Wola, it's all done for him!
And so the Asia plan begins. Of coarse morale is gone for good but let's
be honest, he doesn't give a sh&t about that.
(btw I would expect more expansion plans/announcement from JB at VA soon also). He knows there is now a lot
Of disenchanted business customers. Another 5-10 330 wouldn't surprise me at all.
DoNt make an agreement during the bargaining period, Wait for the umpire again, be told to sign a 2% pay deal and don't have to sign any work security clauses. Wola, it's all done for him!
And so the Asia plan begins. Of coarse morale is gone for good but let's
be honest, he doesn't give a sh&t about that.
(btw I would expect more expansion plans/announcement from JB at VA soon also). He knows there is now a lot
Of disenchanted business customers. Another 5-10 330 wouldn't surprise me at all.
Last edited by SilverSleuth; 30th Oct 2011 at 20:56.
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I believe FWA will draft a better EBA than you'll be able to negotiate, its a game of chicken.
The pilots, baggage handlers and engineers have not flinched, the company inflamed the situation because it knew you wouldn't fold and tried to get the government to intervene, which indirectly they did, stay the path.
The pilots, baggage handlers and engineers have not flinched, the company inflamed the situation because it knew you wouldn't fold and tried to get the government to intervene, which indirectly they did, stay the path.
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driver 121242 is pretty close to the mark in his post #742.
If you want some idea of what you are up against, here's an example: Tim Webster, former television anchor and now consigned to a weekend daytime slot on Sydney radio 2UE, was editorialising yesterday (Sunday) about Julia Gillard's mishandling of the Qantas debacle and waxing lyrical about one Robert James Lee Hawke, who "had a close relationship" with Sir Peter Abeles, (said with much approval), "which allowed him to fix the 1989 **pilots' strike** (his term) "in short order" (said with much approval).
He then went on to say "...love him or loathe him, you have to accept that this was Bob Hawke's finest hour".
That's what you're up against.
If you want some idea of what you are up against, here's an example: Tim Webster, former television anchor and now consigned to a weekend daytime slot on Sydney radio 2UE, was editorialising yesterday (Sunday) about Julia Gillard's mishandling of the Qantas debacle and waxing lyrical about one Robert James Lee Hawke, who "had a close relationship" with Sir Peter Abeles, (said with much approval), "which allowed him to fix the 1989 **pilots' strike** (his term) "in short order" (said with much approval).
He then went on to say "...love him or loathe him, you have to accept that this was Bob Hawke's finest hour".
That's what you're up against.