Pilot Suspensions / Mt Cook Airlines

[MOR]

You don't stick staff on longhaul work travel (in their own bloody time!) in coach with min. rest and expect them to perform in Sim checks.

Lol... some of you guys need to get out more - like outside the little aviation backwater that is NZ! Many companies do this, with the added excitement of sim sessions that start at 0300 on your body clock. I can remember more than one time when I did six difficult winter sectors, straight into a hire car for a four hour drive to the sim, then six hours rest and up in the middle of the night for a check.

The airlines that punt their crews around in business class could probably be counted on one hand... maybe two.

I'm not saying you are wrong - you are quite right about the way crews SHOULD be treated - but it is increasingly rare these days. Mt Cook are simply following the international trend.

[Cloud Cutter]

That's right, it is the way we SHOULD be treated. That's the whole point, trying not to let Ts & Cs get erroded to the state they're at in other parts of the aviation world. Look what's happening in Aus at the moment, we don't want that, and we won't accept it. Very few pilots arround the world have to travel so far for their sim training anyway.

If you compare the quality of life of a Mount Cook pilot, with someone from Easyjet or Ryanair, I think we know who comes out on top (even Money-wise when you factor everything in). There is a move for management to view pilots as an expendable part of the labour force, and treat them accordingly. That is what we must all resist. I see this as a test case. If things go too far down hill, I will have no problem changing careers.

[fly real fast]

Mor:
You need pull you head out. You are one of the people eroding the working conditions of all pilots. Well I suppose thats probably one of the reasons why you left. Kept on shafting others.

[belowMDA]

Fly realy fast, ah come again. do you want to explain your logic reasoning there for us slower flying types?

[haughtney1]

You need pull you head out. You are one of the people eroding the working conditions of all pilots. Well I suppose thats probably one of the reasons why you left. Kept on shafting others.

Sums it up really.......if your'e a butt muncher

Fly Real Fast...mayby you need to use the freely available oxygen that the rest of use..otherwise your gonna keep coming out with braindead comments like that

[fly real fast]

Originally Posted by MOR

Lol... some of you guys need to get out more - like outside the little aviation backwater that is NZ! Many companies do this, with the added excitement of sim sessions that start at 0300 on your body clock. I can remember more than one time when I did six difficult winter sectors, straight into a hire car for a four hour drive to the sim, then six hours rest and up in the middle of the night for a check.

If people think the comments above are the norm for pilots, certain companies are di*king you real hard. If you are accepting working conditions like that you are more of an idiot than your last post.

[MOR]

Very few pilots arround the world have to travel so far for their sim training anyway.

I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong. I have met up with plenty of crews at, say, FSC in Maastricht or BAe at Woodford who have just travelled 18-20 hours to get to the sim - in fact, most of them have. The only ones who haven't are the ones who live in the USA or Europe - but of course there are many airlines that aren't in either place.

There is a move for management to view pilots as an expendable part of the labour force, and treat them accordingly.

Wakey wakey - pilots ARE an expendable part of the workforce, and will always be whilst there are more pilots than jobs. NZ airlines have been very slow to erode T's and C's compared to American or European airlines - how many US pilots have taken massive pay cuts in the last few years? You should be grateful that NZ pilots don't face what US pilots frequently do.

And as far as quality of life is concerned, I'd say Mt Cook wins hands-down.

I agree that you should resist it, I am merely pointing out that the world is moving in a different direction, and you shouldn't be surprised if the current situation turns out to be the tip of the iceberg.

fly real fast

You need pull you head out. You are one of the people eroding the working conditions of all pilots.

A pity you are unable to read or comprehend what I said... so let me help you out with a little repeat of what I said:

I'm not saying you are wrong - you are quite right about the way crews SHOULD be treated

If people think the comments above are the norm for pilots, certain companies are di*king you real hard. If you are accepting working conditions like that you are more of an idiot than your last post.

Well if you ever get out in the real world, sonny, you will find out how wrong you are. Just keep those blinkers on, they obviously make you feel a whole lot happier... even the instructors at Cranfield know better.

[Airslasher]

MOR,

You can think it's a pissy backwater all you like, don't come swimming down here then. It's a Dunnunda forum and this is an issue which is affecting a lot of people down here at the moment. We are trying to NOT end up with the kinds of T's and C's you have already accepted long ago. How many posts have there been about pilots needing to stick together and support one another and then you come out trumpeting how hard you let a company give it to you. No wonder aviation is becoming less of a career and more of an ordinary job, sifting around stepping on anybody else in order to get your own ass ahead to get that "passenger jet job" to finally pay off your training and all the damn ratings you've bought. We do have 10pm-2am and 2-6am local time sim sessions and then the day ones when your body thinks it night anyway. I don't know of one person who can't notice whether they've have business class or coach travel after arriving at a hotel 22 hours after you left home.

Since you're in charge of world aviation MOR, why do Mount Cook pilots not deserve the same travel to sim standards as all other parts of the AIRNZ group? It's called negotiating in good faith. Why should we bend over at the lowest conditions offered by our employer? You seem to want us to grab our ankles at the first opportunity. How about sticking up for your collegues? I'd like to say I'd stick up for you all if you had REASONABLE claims in an employment dispute. That includes pilot unions representing large airlines, turbo-props and even the C Cat on his/her own down at the local aero club.

[fly real fast]

MOR,
As airslasher said....Loser

[piontyendforward]

Slash

why do Mount Cook pilots not deserve the same travel to sim standards as all other parts of the AIRNZ group?

If you are looking to get Mount Cook pilots the same sim (i.e. non duty) travel as the AIRNZ group pilots, then it's called economy class. That is all the Air NZ pilots got when the B733 training was contracted to Ansett Aussie. That is all the Air NZ pilots got when training was done by Boeing in the States, United Airlines and with Air Canada. Also when AirNZ management pilots travel to any overseas meetings they only ever get economy without upgrades.

The only time pilots in the Air NZ group travel J class is flights associated with operational duty travel i.e. pilot is paxing to fly a service or return from a flight duty.

However if you think you can get it go for it, as it might tip the scales on the costs to get an ATR sim in NZ!

If the Mt Cook pilots stick together you will get there, Good Luck and fly safe

[ZFT]

Originally Posted by piontyendforward

However if you think you can get it go for it, as it might tip the scales on the costs to get an ATR sim in NZ!

Maybe is has - ANZ have already ordered an ATR Mechtronix device for delivery mid 2007.

As to Airslasher's comment "2nd-3rd world city with recent bombings " BKK is probably one of the safest cities to be in and 2nd-3rd world. I don't think so.

[max rate]

Um,

The ANZ CEA I have in front of me says that if I travel to a Sim overseas then I travel In business, simple as that. Not a big ask from the NM fellas, I can't imagine why it is not a given considering the distance involved. MOR, you are either management, or a s%^B, I can't figure out which and I don't really care. If you look at the salary and conditions of an Australasian pilot, I think you will find they far less (when converted through the greenback and you have to do that to compare apples with apples) than the airline pilots in the mainline carriers in the states..........after their paydrop! If you are actually a pilot, do everyone a favour and resist the temptation to post utter crap on this forum, Cheers!
NM guys, Stick to your guns. you are not asking for too much

[MOR]

You can think it's a pissy backwater all you like, don't come swimming down here then.

Well the pejorative term is yours, I never called it that. I swim here because I live here.

We are trying to NOT end up with the kinds of T's and C's you have already accepted long ago.

Well actually the Ts & Cs I have worked under have almost all been better than Mt Cook - because I was a part of the pilot council that negotiated them - and if you had bothered to read the thread you would have seen that I support the efforts to keep the T's & C's that you have. All I am saying is that the worldwide trend is the other way, and that you will eventually lose. I am not saying that this is a good thing, I am simply pointing out the other side of the argument. Why can you people not read the thread before beating your chests?

One other thing that I will say, is that NZ aviation has a highly "unionised" mentality that is at odds with the majority of progressive airlines. Instead of digging your heels and and blindly battling these issues, you should take a more long-term view. If in fact your company has invested in a new sim, they have effectively done you a huge favour, and everything that you are whinging about will history as soon as the sim is delivered. But none of you oh-so-bolshy pilots have noticed that, have you?

Read what piontyendforward says, if he is correct then your argument just went down the gurgler.

MOR, you are either management, or a s%^B, I can't figure out which and I don't really care.

Another idiot that can't read. See above.

I think you will find they far less (when converted through the greenback and you have to do that to compare apples with apples) than the airline pilots in the mainline carriers in the states..........after their paydrop!

And that is completely irrelevant. Ask a US pilot who had to sell his home because he couldn't afford the repayments after losing a large chunk of his salary. And in any case, you can't compare a Mt Cook pilot salary with a mainline US carrier. Maybe a (very) small regional carrier, but even it is dangerous comparison, as very few US regionals are as small as Mt Cook.

[Airslasher]

My good MOR:

I never called it that

little aviation backwater that is NZ!

If you're going to lie so blatently why should we even consider anything you say? I find the backwater derogatory. Many pilots stay in the NZ turbo-prop scene because they WANT to, not because they aren't good enough to leave as you imply with that comment. And then deride/tell them not to bother when they want to protect their jobs and those of future aircrew.

everything that you are whinging about will history as soon as the sim is delivered

This Sim would only be useful in part, a 12 monthly trip to Bangkok would still be required. And it's not a done deal yet. I have bothered to read your posts MOR but when you state

you will eventually lose

that to me sums up how you have missed the point of anyone else with a view opposed to your own.

Instead of digging your heels and and blindly battling these issues, you should take a more long-term view.

This is about future T's and C's for Cook pilots and others at Nelson and Eagle for that matter. What is not long term about it??? You have still not supplied a constructive alternative other than "shut up, give in, you guys have it all already." We don't want anymore - just don't believe when all things are considered with our company that we should be going backwards.

Pointy, I think that for any travel to sim over the 6ish hour mark then business class travel is the standard. And ZFT I'll stick with my 2nd/3rd world comment thanks-it's my impression of the place. Trying to lynch their PM a few months ago made me feel pretty good walking around the place too.

[takingitfromfyfe]

Valid post Slasher, Lucky MOR isn't negotiating for us. 2 dollar whanchai hooker comes to mind. Bangkok breed of course.

Please insert the coconut this time............. Ta

By the way, when is Fyfes court appearance. Hear it is some time next month..... Good luck Bro

TIFF

[MOR]

If you're going to lie so blatently why should we even consider anything you say?

If you are going to quote me, do it properly. You used the word "pissing", I didn't. You are the one who is lying.

The term "backwater" in no way implies that NZ aviation is good or bad, simply that it is disconnected from the rest of the world and not representative of what goes on there. It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of pilots, or the quality of anything else for that matter. You would be better off canning the 1950's union rhetoric, and actually reading what I wrote.

that to me sums up how you have missed the point of anyone else with a view opposed to your own.

How very typical of a closed-minded kiwi attitude. Look at the rest of the world - if you do, you will see that many, many airlines have been down the road that Mt Cook is currently going down, and the result is always the same. You either adapt or die - and there are ways to win, but you are so blinkered that you will never see them.

You have still not supplied a constructive alternative other than "shut up, give in, you guys have it all already."

I never said anything of the sort, in fact I have said exactly the reverse. I have now stated in three seperate posts that I support the cause of the Mt Cook pilots. You clearly HAVEN'T read what I have posted.

Anyway, you and your union buddies believe what you want. At least have the decency to READ and UNDERSTAND what I said, and maybe - just maybe - you could manage to respect a dissenting opinion. Probably not, though, you are far more interested in jumping to conclusions than arguing the points on their merits.

[Airslasher]

I actually used the word "pissy." Don't really want to argue english with you but as I said I took backwater as the pejorative term. No lying there.

Despite your consistent accusations I'm not a 'balls to the wall' staunch union man. I do however think it is the best way to go in matters such as these and support ALPA as my representation (and therefore my collegues) 100%.

I have now stated in three seperate posts that I support the cause of the Mt Cook pilots.

That's good MOR, and I HAVE read that but the rest of your posts seem to contradict yourself. Again what do you suggest we do? What are these "ways to win" you speak of? I (admittedly grudgingly! ) respect your dissenting opinion. However, I still think that we have valid (and very minor in the financial scheme of things) claims and should stick to our guns. The inevitable result you prophesize MOR, will only become inevitable when we think 'f**k it' and throw in the towel.

you will see that many, many airlines have been down the road that Mt Cook is currently going down, and the result is always the same. You either adapt or die

Adapt? How? By increasing our sphinctal diameter? Many airlines have done it before? As I said previously with OUR circumstances and OUR company (yes OUR small, out of touch, backwater, close-minded, blinkered, isolated situation) we think we deserve to have these two sticking points resolved to OUR satisfaction.

By the way, nice front page article in today's ODT too. Looking suspiciously like a story founded on information from company sources, half truths etc rampant throughout.

[MOR]

what do you suggest we do? What are these "ways to win" you speak of?

Not sure that it would be smart to discuss that on an open forum... I'm sure your management are reading this.

The inevitable result you prophesize MOR, will only become inevitable when we think 'f**k it' and throw in the towel.

Not at all. Let's think back to another body of pilots that "stuck to their guns" around 1989, in a place not too far from here. What happened to them, and their lofty principles? Most of them ended up flying "rubber dog sh*t out of Hong Kong".

And then there was that other airline with a name beginning with "A", on our own fair shores. What happened to them again? And "their" airline?

You may think that you can beat your management, but the evidence is overwhelmingly the other way.

"Smart" beats "militant" every time.

Adapt? How? By increasing our sphinctal diameter?

No, by being smarter than your management. How hard could that be?

As I said previously with OUR circumstances and OUR company (yes OUR small, out of touch, backwater, close-minded, blinkered, isolated situation) we think we deserve to have these two sticking points resolved to OUR satisfaction.

Yes but it isn't YOUR company. It belongs to shareholders who want to see maximum return and minimum cost. They aren't on your side. They are (essentially) the enemy.

we think we deserve to have these two sticking points resolved to OUR satisfaction.

But you are the only ones who do (apart from me of course). To your management and your shareholders, you are irritating primadonnas. Or do you think that they respect you?

[kmagyoyo]

Article from the OTG....

Action by pilots upsets travellers
By Dene Mackenzie Friday, 21st July 2006

Ongoing industrial action by some Mount Cook Airline pilots is causing frustration for Dunedin travellers as they find their flights cancelled and miss connections.

The Otago Daily Times was approached by travel agents complaining about the actions of the Mount Cook pilots on ATR flights between Dunedin and Christchurch.

It appeared the most popular flight for cancellation was the 10.05am service to Christchurch, which connected with the Singapore Air international flight.

The ODT was told pilots were phoning in sick at the last minute and that other pilots were not making themselves available as replacements.

Dunedin International Airport Ltd chief executive John McCall said yesterday’s 10.05am flight was cancelled and flights were being cancelled on a daily basis.

“Very rarely does a day go by without a flight being cancelled. We have had multiple flights cancelled for some reason or another.”

There was no pattern, with morning, afternoon and evening services all being cancelled at the last minute at various times, he said when contacted.

The airport company had been given no official reason for the cancellations, which were having a “huge disruptive impact” on travellers. The Christchurch-Dunedin services made up 47% of the airport’s capacity and to have that disrupted meant significant problems, Mr McCall said.

Otago Chamber of Commerce chief executive John Christie urged the airline to find a fast solution to the industrial action, as it was starting to hit business.

Missed international connections were a big issue for Dunedin businesspeople, he said.

To have a last-minute cancellation and a missed international connection was irritating, to say the least, Mr Christie said.

Dunedin travel agents Russell Duff, from VIP International Travel, and Vincent George, of Vincent George House of Travel, confirmed their clients were being disadvantaged, but paid tribute to the Air New Zealand staff at the airport who they said worked hard to rebook people on alternative flights.

Mr Duff said many flights were being cancelled with less than 24 notice. While every athours tempt was made to contact passengers, some would turn up at the airport to find their flights cancelled.

Crew sickness was the standard reason for the cancelled flights.

“This is clearly a ploy by pilots to make a point, but it is causing frustration within the industry.”

Mr George said there was probably no other way for the pilots to get their point across, but it was causing problems for their colleagues in the travel industry.

(cut and paste from the website; spelling and grammar nazi's contact ODT)

[Hanz Blix]

Surprise surprise! MOR makes a post and a thread turns to custard

Honestly MOR we are all sick of hearing how it is overseas, we are all aware and appreciate what its like and have chosen to stay home for various reasons.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is the fact that the pilots are not technically asking for a pay rise mearly a CPI adjustment so they dont take a pay cut (again) for the next three years. Also travel to the sim, they do it in thier own time (to help the companies costs stay down, duty time ect) and all they ask for is an upgrade! Every other link operator has this clause for travel over 4 hours so how is it suddenly not good enough for the COOK pilots?

What this has all proved lately with working to rule ect is that companies (in NZ) struggle to operate an on time efficeint airline with little pax disrupts if the pilots withdraw the good will.

Good luck to all involved

HB