British Airways Future Pilot Programme.

[vybz]

Remember how these selection processes work! Whatever the industry, your qualifications don't make any difference getting to an assessment stage, or how clever you are. It's all done on how good you are at BS on the multiple choice questions and the BA related bit, forget work history or any qualifications above min required, it doesn't matter.

I got rejected last year at 25 with PPL, 2 BSc degrees, 4 A levels...as well as a decent work history at major companies with both customer services as well as technical etc.

But if you don't get through this time it's easy, just ask a mate to do the questions for you next time. Even someone not interested in being a pilot with no knowledge. With the multiple choice it's easy to reason 1 or 2 answers can be right but you have get which one is the correct answer, usually the one which requires the least thinking, this is because companies want people that follow instructions. Same goes for the supporting questions on BA etc, ask someone to help with that too. Not everyone is good at putting stuff like that into writing, or having a corporate mindset to pick the generic answers on a multiple choice, it doesn't even give any real indication to whether someone can be a good pilot.

Basically apply again next year, keep the application the same for work, qualifications, why you want to be pilot etc. Just get someone else to do the multiple choice questions and you'll be surprised how they change their opinion ;)

[juniour jetset]

Just got the axe from CTC last night.

about me: approaching 37 (some grey hair), 15 hours flying including solos, a couple of years working airside - baggage, refuelling, ground handling. Good health, fitness + eyesight. Degree and A-levels. Business experience. Some good life experience.

Not bad on Flight sim too.


Well - it was a long shot. No hard feelings BA - at least you are doing more than the others!

[4KBeta]

Another with the disappointing email from CTC...

Background: Age 25-30, fairly high level at a major bank, good business experience elsewhere including worldwide travel.

Education: Good Degree, not the best A-Levels...lessons learnt when studying degree ;) and I also meet GCSE requirements.

Pretty disappointed right now, though I am hopeful once I stop looking for flaws in me, I will appreciate BA's efforts as stated above.

Good luck to those that got through, I hope it works for you.

[walshy_MAN]

Got the 'No' myself, cant say im surprised its a lottery with these sort of schemes, but i thought there's no harm in applying. Obviously didn't cut it with the BS questions etc.

Background - Worked for 2 large companies with technical and customer service roles, PPL with around 100hrs, flying as often as I can while enjoying life and not putting my house on a job in this game.

Will stick with the modular route, looking at the bigger picture I couldn't really imagine putting myself in the position these schemes will leave you in anyway. Think I will just enjoy the license and get ready for the CPL, the dream is to fly for a living, but while I know the state the industry is in with recruitment (lets not get into this haha), ill always have the pleasure of jumping in a C172 or whatever im flying that day and just really enjoy the flying.

[Thomas_151290]

has anyone heard back from fte jerez yet? I have been through the thread and thus far its only been replies back from ctc and oxford

many thanks,

[fallingwithstyle]

@vybz - You seem to sound like you deserve an interview simply because you have 2 BSc Degrees, 4 A Levels and a PPL. Once you meet the minimum requirements everybody is then on a level playing field.

How would you suggest these application processes change to suit you needs? The BS multiple choice questions you refer to are to gain a slight insight into one's personality, I wouldn't call it a pass/fail test but a suitability test. The supporting questions gains an insight into the motivation and qualities of a person. These are the same sort of questions you may be asked in an interview, if you can't answer those questions sufficiently at the application stage then you can't answer those questions in the interview stage. The requirements to be a "good pilot" is not necessarily all about how well you can fly a plane, there are certain qualities (i.e. professionalism, leadership and personality)that a person needs to possess in order to even get a shot at an interview, to even suggest asking a friend to do some of the questions shows you have no integrity. So ask yourself one question, in those 800 words in the supporting questions, how well did you manage to sell yourself to a potential employer?

I have lots of friends that have/are applying to this scheme either this time round or last year, all the ones that didn't make it past the initial application stage all blame the system and the selection process. Not one of them thought about how they could improve to stand a better chance next time.

Rant over.

[lawcarr11]

Hey guys, I've got my CTC assessment on the 9th Jan, pretty nervous right now. I'm unsure of what to expect on the day, I've been notified about the PILAPT test but could anyone possibly shed some light on what to expect.

Thanks in advance

[Sebas27]

Nothing yet here...but I think some people had answers already (check on the previous pages of this thread)

[Freebird534]

Hello all,

Just a quick message.......

Have a stage 2 at Dibden, Southhampton (CTC) on 15.01.2013 (9am)

Driving down from Newcastle on the 14th so if anyone in North East is in same boat then I'd be happy to car share? :)

[mad_jock]

Only that if none of your relatives has the capital to secure the loan BA will secure it.

Also as well they go into full time employment it seems without the limited contracts through agencys that some of the others do.

[halpo87]

I haven't heard anything back either from FTE... Beginning to lose hope at this stage seeing as how so many people have already heard back

[Bearcat F8F]

For those of you who applied to FTE and not heard back yet, their offices are still closed. Closed until the 8th. This would probably explain the lack of responses apart from a few that have been sent prior to the holidays.

Don't loose hope! All the best to all of you. :ok:

[Apollo 18]

OK. The interviews are about to start for some so I think it’s only fair that the playing field be levelled a little for those who didn’t have the advantage of attending one last year.

The group exercise involved 5 minutes of silent scenario reading followed by 45 minutes using clue cards to figure out where the group had been dropped on a map, where they were now, where and when the pickup would be, how to get there and what equipment to take. The instructors observe in silence and provided no feedback.

The group discussions were on topics like, “Discuss how technology is improving flight safety”; “Discuss MPL”; “What are the new opportunities in the aviation market?”; “Discuss whether Britain is a benefits culture.” The instructors decide when each discussion ends, and again there’s no feedback.

The individual interviews started with, “Tell us about yourself and why you want to be a BA pilot.” Candidates had to identify a model aircraft before answering some flight principals and technical questions. Other questions covered knowledge of the flight school’s course, aviation interests and experience, general interests and personal background. Expect multiple questions about BA and its business, competition, investments etc. Above all though, expect multiple, “Give us an example of a time when” questions on planning, taking control, changing minds etc for which the example on the application form will be out of bounds - and expect the answers to be challenged, “Why did you do that? Didn’t you consider alternatives?” etc.

Afterwards PPRuNe will be a good indication of whether you’re through to the BA interview as all the invites arrive at the same time.

I hope this is fair and useful help. It divulges high level details without giving away either the answers or what the schools are looking for. Obviously the exercise and group questions will have changed and most of the potential questions you’ll be asked aren’t listed, but good luck and I hope to see some of you on the other side.

[BBrus]

Just received the rejection email from FTE, I don't make it to the second phase.

I thought it was going to end well, good A-Levels, expecting 1st Class in my BA next year, spotted several "hidden intentions" in the personality test, did fine in the written part.

The worst thing that could happen to me if I was rejected was no changes in my current life. A very good chance of changing my life lost, sadly.

[mad_jock]

spotted several "hidden intentions" in the personality test

Your being to clever for your own good there will be second and third questions that which also tell them the same thing. If you give the answer you think they are looking for it will be obvious that you have not given the truth for that answer which also gives another trait which they don't want.

Just do these tests as you actually feel, unless you are a Phd that designs these things you won't be able to spot the interlinking. And even then you don't know what they are actually looking for so you may set yourself up to look like what you think is a perfect pilot which may be different to what the company wants.

[mr kingair]

Interesting happenings in the industry with this BAFPP. On the whole, you have to take your hat off to BA for initialising it compared to the practises of the low costs and the P2F format.

Good luck to those advancing and commiserations to the others.

Some interesting points being made on this forum, thought I'd put my two pence worth as I have a day off and at a loose end.

There is always going to be some random outcomes with type of system. Great potential will not always be spotted and picked up.

I remember applying for BA back in the 97 and asking the local BA captain on our street what I should put for the questions (paper format in those days - one's hand writing and lack of spell checker became more of an issue) and his reply was "I just don't know what they are looking for these days, with all these HR types"

Anyway, two of my good friends also applied. Me and another(b) never got an interview and the third(c) got one and got no further.

Fast forward to today>>>>>

Me - King Air Pilot

B - Private pilot and senior materials scientist at Airbus

C (the one who got the BA interview but no further) - The RAF could see what BA HR couldn't and gave him a break and was Tristar(wide-body 100+Ton long haul aircraft)Captain after 1300hours - flying a way more taxing aircraft and routes. He has always been classified as "above average flying skills" on Squadron and is a very rounded character too with a good understanding of the world and business.

Moral of the story - I don't really know.. but I'm sure BA HR department make lots of under-optimised decisions as well as optimised ones. For example: they employed a future wife killer BBC News - British Airways pilot cleared of murdering wife Joanna Brown in Ascot (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-13522759)

Good luck to you all (including the BA HR team)

[saqademus]

still no reply from OAA!!

[mike_foyle]

Don't worry I haven't heard back from OAA yet either. When we went for the Stage 1, they said that they would not be letting people know until at least January 4th. They also said it could well be some time after this that we hear anything. They are unable to establish a pass mark until enough people have completed the stage 1 assessment days, and this is only the first working day since the 4th so I'm just sitting tight for a bit :)

Good luck everyone!

[Callan]

Still no reply from OAA either :p

I keep refreshing my email!!

[Shawrey]

I've just received my Invitation to OAA Day 2. The replies are on the way!

[Openwaters]

Big congratulations to those who have heard back from OAA ready for stage 3!!

Anyone going to CTC tomorrow for stage 2?

[squird02]

Congratulations to all those who have heard that they have made it through to the next stages!
Can I just ask how long it took to hear back from OAA once you had completed the Day 1 aptitude tests?

[Ispahan]

Another invited to Day 2 with Oxford...received the email last Friday. Be patient (even if I've been refreshing my emails every 5 mns for the last few days :rolleyes:) as I think that not all the Day 1 successful applicants have been called...

[Mikk2k2]

@Openwaters - I'll be there tomorrow afternoon!

(@Mad_Jock You're not your...sorry pet peeve!)

[FrankMatt]

I was rejected.

About me: 23, A-levels, 1st Class Hons degree in Aerospace Engineering, Merit for MSc Masters in Aeronautics, both of which were from top 5 Uk universities, In first year of PhD, approx 20 hours flying, spent a long time on psychometric questions - believe I did a fairly good job on them,

Why I didn't get even past the initial screening?

-Lack of work experience? I am 23 and have spent all my time in university with a handful of part time jobs such as working at the universities in varying capacities, bar work etc

-Not enough flying experience? It could be this, but it sounds like from the brief given on the website that this is not required, so this should be irrelevant. Maybe they thought it showed a lack of interest in the job.

-Psychometric/multiple choice were not up to scratch? Even after reading them again I think i have given good examples where I have demonstrated leadership, teamwork etc

[WILLKING22]

Who did you do your assesment day with? OAA?
We were told we did not need to answer the psycometric questions at the end of the test. They were voluntary and will not have impacted on your scores.

I got a reject email through today - pretty gutted but in the end I know I wasn't good enough on the day.

I'm hoping to re-apply next time round, does anyone know how long I have to wait before I can?

[Blablabla500]

Perhaps he means the multiple choice questions asked on the online application?

Anyway, I was rejected too for Oxford. Good luck to those who got through.

[mad_jock]

Yep thats why I didn't apply Mikk2k2. The spelling test. :p

[4KBeta]

We were told we did not need to answer the psycometric questions at the end of the test. They were voluntary and will not have impacted on your scores.


Interesting, I wasn't aware these were optional. I completed these either way, interesting also to learn these wouldn't of impacted score.

I guess it depends on who you speak to, one would hope they wouldn't of looked at education on it's own.

[FANS]

one would hope they wouldn't of looked at education on it's own.

or grammar on its own!


About me: 23, A-levels, 1st Class Hons degree in Aerospace Engineering, Merit for MSc Masters in Aeronautics, both of which were from top 5 Uk universities, In first year of PhD, approx 20 hours flying, spent a long time on psychometric questions - believe I did a fairly good job on them

Why not just write your full name and DoB while you're at it!

[WILLKING22]

Sorry, got confused. I was talking about the psychometric test on the assessment day not the multiple choice questions on the application, these were mandatory.

[Libertine Winno]

@FrankMatt

If I had your educational background then I would be at Airbus, Boeing, BAe, Lockheed Martin etc designing the planes rather than actually flying them...you will earn more, get better benefits and you certainly won't have to pay for the privilege of working for them!

[SWATSON12]

@WILLKING22

Did you get a reject email from OAA after doing the aptitude test? when did you sit the test?

[BerksFlyer]

Has anyone paid FTE and actually received confirmation of payment?

The payment appears to have gone through but not cleared, judging by the subtraction of approx. £200 from my available bank balance (so the payment isn't stated explicitly on the statement). What proof of payment can I possibly provide? I don't fancy travelling several hundred miles to be told I can't do the tests due to having no proof of payment.

FTE's offices are still unavailable despite their claiming to be open again today and BA say it's nothing to do with them so not a lot they can do.

[WILLKING22]

SWATSON12 yep sat mine 21st December though from what I've read on here, the last assessment day was 4th January.

[4KBeta]

or grammar on its own!



Was that really required?

Anyhow, I unfortunately agree with you on the information comment

[Abbey Road]

I was rejected.

About me: 23, A-levels, 1st Class Hons degree in Aerospace Engineering, Merit for MSc Masters in Aeronautics, both of which were from top 5 Uk universities, In first year of PhD, approx 20 hours flying, spent a long time on psychometric questions - believe I did a fairly good job on them,

Why I didn't get even past the initial screening?

-Lack of work experience? I am 23 and have spent all my time in university with a handful of part time jobs such as working at the universities in varying capacities, bar work etc

-Not enough flying experience? It could be this, but it sounds like from the brief given on the website that this is not required, so this should be irrelevant. Maybe they thought it showed a lack of interest in the job.

-Psychometric/multiple choice were not up to scratch? Even after reading them again I think i have given good examples where I have demonstrated leadership, teamwork etc FrankMatt, perhaps your 'superior' attitude put them off? :rolleyes:

[SWATSON12]

@ Blablabla500

Did you also sit the aptitude test at OAA? if so when?

[Stocious]

I was rejected.

About me: 23, A-levels, 1st Class Hons degree in Aerospace Engineering, Merit for MSc Masters in Aeronautics, both of which were from top 5 Uk universities, In first year of PhD, approx 20 hours flying, spent a long time on psychometric questions - believe I did a fairly good job on them,

Why I didn't get even past the initial screening?

-Lack of work experience? I am 23 and have spent all my time in university with a handful of part time jobs such as working at the universities in varying capacities, bar work etc

-Not enough flying experience? It could be this, but it sounds like from the brief given on the website that this is not required, so this should be irrelevant. Maybe they thought it showed a lack of interest in the job.

-Psychometric/multiple choice were not up to scratch? Even after reading them again I think i have given good examples where I have demonstrated leadership, teamwork etc

Wonderful academics, but that means very little to them at the end of the day.

Perhaps the answers to your questions in the application didn't impress them enough, or didn't show the kind of non-technical skills that they were looking for, perhaps through work experience. Not that it helps you much now I'm afraid, but maybe take a look at them again next round if you choose to run the gauntlet again.

[SWATSON12]

@Flys4Funs

When did you do the tests at OAA?

[directory]

How difficult was the assessment centre

[flying_god]

Hey Guys,

Sorry to hear some didn't make it past the aptitude tests at Oxford. How did you feel it went ?

I'm through to the next stage and felt my scores were something like this:
Memory 6/7
Compass, RBI, Horizon 7/7 (I got this straight away and seemed it ran out of questions for me as it finished the test with 2 mins left..)
Slalom 6/7
Hand Foot 3/7 (My brain seemed to want to push the wrong pedal to correct)
MultiTasking Autopilot 5/7 (seemed that when you entered a value, it stopped you cancelling an alert)
Maths 6/7 (Completed all the answers in the time)
Physics 13/15

There is an element of luck involved. I'm sure that if the 80 that were selected last year chose a different FTO, different selection day etc then not all would have progressed. Also the majority of BA's pilots didn't have to pass these or similar tests, they either arrived before HR introduced them or have became BA pilots through mergers / aquisitions (BMI, British Caledonian etc etc)

You might find that you have better luck with a different test battery at another school next year..

[Roger-Wilco]

@ Libertine Winno (http://www.pprune.org/members/387852-libertine-winno)

If I had your educational background then I would be at Airbus, Boeing, BAe, Lockheed Martin etc designing the planes rather than actually flying them...you will earn more, get better benefits and you certainly won't have to pay for the privilege of working for them!

Im afraid not. The rewards are not what they used to be. A typical Engineering career in Aerospace within Europe at a major firm would typically start you off at £25,000 and you wouldn't see over £60,000 at the peak of your career. That is with as many University qualifications coming out you @rse as you want! :yuk:

[Poose]

Having worked at one of the aforementioned big three aerospace engineering companies, I can only reinforce the above.
The pay is not good and there are virtually no benefits, other than some interesting work. I started on £23000 at one of them... No other significant benefits.
I would imagine that there is not much between the companies. HR ensure that...

If you want a well paid engineering job, you need to look toward oil and gas, followed by nuclear, then automotive and civil or electrical. In my experience, aerospace sits at the bottom of the pay scales, but requires a high level of expertise and understanding. I have friends in all of the aforementioned sectors - some can buy and sell me.

When you consider what a bin man earns in London (£31,000), it really makes you question why you bothered to get a good, professional academic degree... :uhoh:

[kirungi1]

Hello Sam 17

I have read your post with a very light heart. It shows what you are inside, a straight and professional man. I admire your honest but few of us can match what you have.

What I know is you've gain an invaluable experience just by making an attempt. You've offered yourself to the challenge. Only leaders do this. You have a drive and the ambition, no doubt about that and believe me you, this open admission might be a reflection that you were only not in the right state of mind when you made that application.

The essence of situations like these is drawing a line under by learning the lessons which quite clearly you seem to be a master at. I hope this does come over again in the autumn for this experience to shine you through.

With my best wishes, Sam - do not despair.

[Blablabla500]

@Swatson12 yes I sat the aptitude test at OAA on 11th Dec. I thought it went well but obviously I was wrong.

@Flys4Fun How do you know you royally :mad: up? Just a gut feeling or did you contact OAA for exam results? I was under the impression no feedback or marks would be given.

[Blablabla500]

@slowhand87

I was told that day 2 at OAA would take place on either the 14/15th Jan. Last week I had a gut feeling I had not got through to that stage after I read on here people getting invites and I had heard nothing and of course time was ticking away getting closer to next Monday and Tues. Sadly yesterday I got the email though saying I wasn't successful but I knew what the email was going to say before I read it based upon that gut feeling.

Are you sure you havent been sent an email that you haven't received? Check the BA.com/careers site to see the record of emails sent as I know that I didn't receive one email into my inbox (the actual invite to the compass test!) and so nearly missed my chance. I guess if no email has been sent to you, then you can still live in hope but not knowing is the worst feeling!

[abby-mills]

I haven't received any emails from OAA either and I sat my assessment on the 11th... I think it's pretty obvious I'm not through to the next stage if stage 2 is taking place next week but I'd prefer to have confirmation.

[SWATSON12]

@slowhand87

I did mine on the 12th Dec and still not head back either, i called them last week and they said they will not have finished testing people till the end of this week and so we will hear back by next week. I think someone on here mentioned that they are running the Day 2 process till Jan 21st.

[captain_spud]

I sat the COMPASS test at Oxford yesterday morning and got a reply back this morning inviting me to the next stage. The representative at the school informed the group that all replies should arrive by the beginning of next week at the latest.

[flying_god]

What dates is the BA website showing for the day 2 oxford assessment at the moment?

[captain_spud]

When I booked this morning, there were a few left for the 23rd and quite a few for the 24th of Jan, but that was it.

[flying_god]

Cheers, so there is hope for people yet.

I suspect the people that have not been told are within a mark or two of passing depending on how the final people go. A little trick I have used to see if the day 1 testing is going on is to go back to the website where you paid your 250. Last check showed dates up to the 14th for the first day.

So based on what other people have said, I think 30% got invited to day 1 and only 10% to 15% through to day 2. I suspect <5% will get to cranebank towers.

[fallingwithstyle]

I don't know about the individual FTOs, but last year each school sent 100 applicants to the final stage at Heathrow. According to the BA there were around 3500 applicants. Therefore around 8.5% of applicants get through to the final stage. Of those 300 who got through to the final stage 95 got the nod, (approx 2.7%).

[duryfalls]

so the fact that i'm still yet to hear from ctc regarding my initial application is probably not a good thing then....??! :rolleyes:

according to the ba website, the last e-mail sent to me was at the end of Nov acknowledging receipt of my application!

[champair79]

Went to the CTC assessment yesterday. We were told about 1/3 of us had been selected from the batch of initial applications. Assuming a fairly even split of applicants across the FTO's (doubt it is but oh well!), then you're looking at around 1500 initial applications to each, so 30% of that is more or less 500 to assess at each FTO. Each FTO will put forward 100 applicants to BA for the final stage at Waterside towers (not Cranebank, the recruitment centre moved last week...). I believe OAA was the most popular FTO selected last year and I've no reason to believe anything has changed this year.

As for my assessment yesterday, I'm sat on the fence. Don't think I did badly but it all depends on the quality of the other candidates!

[coxie]

Sat my COMPASS etc at OAA on 7th Jan and got my reject today. Pretty gutted of course but glad I had a go. Like others have said, through all the nerves, I actually quite enjoyed the day.

Thought some parts went well and others not so well. Does make sense to me that some who have been waiting a long time are borderline for getting through. I was obviously sufficiently under the bar to receive swift no.

Was just wondering if others who have got an OAA reject got the "your scores may make you eligible for our APP first officer course" and "look out for other sponsorship schemes"

I.e is this any indication of my score or just a standard trying to tout for business reject email?

Congratulations and good luck to those still left in.

[veetwo]

Coxie

Unlucky. Well done for going for it, there will doubtless be subsequent years where you can try again, should you so wish.

The offer to join their "regular" program of training is not unusual. I'm willing to bet nearly everyone who takes the OAA/FTE/CTC tests and fails to get into the mentored scheme (whichever one it may be) is "invited" back in this manner.

Treat the offer with extreme caution as what they are really saying is, "we'll take your money - why wouldn't we - but you don't have a job waiting at the end of it".

[unluckywannabe]

unlucky coxie mate. If it's any consolation, I failed mine too so probably feeling the same way. Knew it before even reading the email, when I saw the subject in the inbox contained no attachment this time round :sad:

[pug]

Treat the offer with extreme caution as what they are really saying is, "we'll take your money - why wouldn't we - but you don't have a job waiting at the end of it".

Considering the unlucky applicant will have paid for the second day, then would it not be prudent for the hopeful to return for that second day should their test scores have been sufficient to meet their APP criteria, and they aren't travelling from Outer Mongolia?

Afterall, if the plan is to apply again next time, then you cannot really put a price on experience of assessment processes.

I do, however, echo what you say regarding going down the non-mentored route.

[veetwo]

Pug

Do you really have to pay for both days even if you fail day one? If that's the case then absolutely, get your moneys worth, the experience will not be wasted.

However, it would then be easy to be seduced into thinking that having gone through both days and "passed" (despite having failed to get into the mentored scheme) that you should sign up to the course anyway. It is this against which I caution since the most important question any prospective student should ask before embarking on a course of training is this - Where will the job at the end come from?

Better off sitting tight for the next mentored scheme to come along (even if you have to wait 12+ months) rather than sign up on impulse to an unmentored scheme.

[pug]

Veetwo, I do agree. However, I'm suggesting that you cannot get too much experience of the assessment process, and if it is free then it would be prudent to go for it, particularly for those looking to apply again next year, or for other airline schemes.

I certainly wouldn't advise on self funding a course without a conditional offer from an airline.

[Aspiration_Station]

A question about Assessment Day 1. I'm assuming that the aptitude tests at the 3 FTOs are the same? As in COMPASS or Pilapt (whichever is being used), to ensure a level playing field for all applicants? A lot of discussion on this thread has been focused on OAA, not as much word from the CTC or FTE applicants.

Another simple question, do you get to use pen and paper for rough workings? I haven't been through an aptitude test and I'm aware of the mathematics and physics topics in the test, and that the tests are done on computer.

Thanks guys.

[baldopilot]

Hello guys, I have my FTE assessment soon. They don't mention any interview, does this mean the assessment is gonna be split in two days like for OAA?

[Aspiration_Station]

From the CTC emails I've had, Assessment Day 1 includes groups activities, and the aptitude tests. Assessment Day 2 has interviews and numeracy tests. I'm not sure if all FTOs are running the same sort of schedule...last year CTC did a full-day assessment, split in half between phases.

[halpo87]

I still haven't heard anything from FTE yet, Don't know whether its a good or bad thing.. Not to many people seem to be saying anything about the assessment days for them so I can only presume they haven't contacted many off their applicants yet..

[Propellerhead]

All 3 schools use their own aptitude tests and assessment process. That's why BA have the final stage of selection.

Oxford will only tell you that your scores are suitable for a self sponsored course if you've met the standard required for entry to the APP course - itself a very high standard that makes you eligible for Oxford's skills net guarantee where they will refund the entire cost of the course if you fail and there are no resit fees. They certainly don't give that to anyone turning up with a cheque book as it could cost them tens of thousands. The pass rate for the APP is around 50%. BA FPP is a competition so will only take the top x % above this.

[Bearcat F8F]

baldopilot,

Yes there IS an interview. Evey thing is on the same day.

Have fun. :ok:

[baldopilot]

@BearCar thanks a lot! Will give it my best shot. So glad they don't split it up :D

[saqademus]

gah! Got the rejection email from OAA a few days ago.

Bloody physics test!

[cc86]

Got the rejection from OAA today - sat mine on the 10th Dec.

I'm going to do the rest of it for the experience, sure to come in handy applying for BA next year.

Commiserations to those who didn't make it... Petition your MP for a third runway - might create a few more places!

Good luck on day 2 to the rest of you!

[cc86]

Plus anyone fancy doing the second day send me a pm. We can make a rejects day of it.

[SWATSON12]

Been invited to the next stage today with OAA, did the test on 12th Dec.

[halpo87]

Just got a rejection email from FTE, pretty gutted. It also says that because there was so many applicants they can't give me a reason as to why or what I was left down by,
Might try OAA next time round

Good luck to everyone who was selected

[ElliotWestacott]

Been invited to stage 2 aswel, is anyone scheduled on the 17th Dec?

[nickyboy007]

Got a No from FTE today. Onwards an upwards. Good Luck everyone.

[Torquay]

Got a rejection email from FTE today as well. The time spent on the online application did not make the difference...
Good luck to everyone still in the process!

[baldopilot]

If the NARIC conversion letter won't reach me before the day of the assessment what should I do? I mean i sent out the request the same day I was invited by FTE and I have all the documentation for that...did anyone experience the same problem?

[dunc_hale]

Is anyone else out there still waiting to hear from OAA about whether they have got through to Stage 2 or not?

The various posts about rejections and successes have led me to conclude that I must be in the final batch of borderline cases, but news of anyone else in the same position would at least provide a final glimmer of hope!

Thanks.

[rojocrv]

Heybuddy, i did not have the nairc letter on time going to FTE last year. i emailed them and they said that it was ok, i could just provide it later one. So DONT worry. i would send them a mail or give them a quick ring just in case things have changed.

[Martijn123]

Sat my day 1 at OAA this week. Day after it got an email, unfortunately not called forward for day 2. Although I knew chances would be really small, especially applying from outside UK, I'm feeling pretty gutted right now. Thought it went not too bad at all. It said "Unfortunately, your scores attained on Day 1 did not quite reach the required standard to be called forward to Day 2 of the BA FPP selection procedure.". Is that particular sentence any indication of what my scores were? Or is that just a standard reply? It also said that in fact my scores made me eligible for further consideration for OAA's normal course.

I got a feeling I just messed up the mathematics test, didn't complete it, got to question 23 of 24. And a part of the test for remembering things, especially when 3 things including radio settings came into the "game". So do not consider it bad at all, although also knew when thinking about my performance just because not being able to complete the mathematics test would mean I will not be at the top.

As I was staying at Langford Halls, while having the feeling that I would not being at the top of the list, I talked a little bit with the accommodation staff about what the rate was of pilots through their own self payed courses that got a job in todays job market. She called the graduation&career department for me. They said numbers on the website for 2012 weren't updated, it is now over 200 pilots who got a job. Also normally around 80-90 percent of the self sponsored students who graduates from OAA get a job within a year. That seems pretty high, doesn't it?
Got also a email and phone number of a member of staff to email or ring, would I require any more information. Will post here what there reply is once they got back to me.

I will probably attend the further day 2 of the selection for a normal course, as I already paid for it and it will give a lot of experience for applying for other mentored schemes, next years BA FPP etc.

[mad_jock]

yes its a load of :mad:.

If they put that in writing on the website they know fine that a load of us would be getting trading standards onto them pretty sharpish.

The whole economy around the school is dependent on the students going through.

[loughrey1]

Hi all,

I am attending the FTE selection day on Tuesday and although they do give a brief description of how the day will entail, can anyone give me any advice how to prepare? I have Maths, Physics and ICT A-level under my belt so looking over both, the information pack they sent me plus a few of my notes but should I expect anything else?

Any private messages or helpful replies would be greatly appreciated!

[mavro26]

I sat the COMPASS tests at OAA around the middle of December and I've only just been invited to a Day 2 selection so I assume I'm one of the last border line cases. When I logged on to the system to select a date, there were selection centers running up until the end of January.

Fingers crossed! :)

[naturals]

loughrey1, I know you're doing FTE and not OAA but I can't imagine the tests being that different. On that basis I'd suggest you read the OAA forums as there is quite a lot of advice on there on what to prepare.

[Martijn123]

To all the people who got a reject after attending day 1 from OAA. Is it all the same email which was sent? With the message that your scores attained on day 1 did not quite reach the required standard to be called forward to Day 2 of the BA FPP selection procedure? I want to know if there are different versions of the email sent to people who are rejected, depending on what was the score you actually got.

[wanttobeapilot]

Received an invite to Day 2 from OAA.
Took an assessment mid December.
Good luck to all those invited also.

[unluckywannabe]

Hi Martijn123. I think it's the same one for all the rejects from OAA.

You'll get the standard email without the invitation attachment. Something along the lines of... "You're not good enough. But your scores may mean you're eligible to proceed on 1 of our courses at the school..."

Basically, unless you completely messed it up (i.e. can't read, or tell left from right, etc...) then they'll be more than happy to take your money

Makes sense I suppose. Business is business. ;)


I wonder do they allow us rejects back for day 2, just for experience at least? I'm considering it, although it would be 1 hell of a sinking feeling if you had to do it at the same time as the successful applicants. Probably a little too demoralizing for me if I'm honest :ouch:

I wish everyone still in the race the best of luck.

[ulsteraviator]

Does anyone know how many initial applicants there were, and more importantly how many are left in Stage 2?

[rogerg]

then they'll be more than happy to take your money

OAA are very carefull that they only take money from someone who has a good chance of passing the course, as they have to repay if you fail, with certain caveats.

[Martijn123]

@Unluckywannabe

I will probably also attend day 2. As far as I understood we can call back after March 1st to make an appointment for the missing parts of the normal skills assessment: which will be: group exercises, interview, flight simulator assessment and the questions about personality from COMPAS which you didn't have to complete at day 1. Actually doubting now that that was part of the assessment, to see which student will do more than instructed, could that be the case???

As we can call back after March 1 2013, all invited to day 2 will probably have already done theirs. As OAA is, as I believe, starting next week with day 2 assessment. In March should be final stage with BA recruitment centre at Cranebank (or another place someone mentioned they moved).

I was actually quite surprised of my fellow candidates that knew little about the programme, they were discussing financing, if you had to pay interest for the loan. If you received a yes from BA, when courses will start. All that was clearly written at the BA FPP website...

[funkyt111]

@martijn123

From reading this thread, there seems to be lots of people that are unaware of important details that are clearly stated on the BA website such as interest on the loan as you said.

If these people get through to the last stage then they'll be definitely caught out in conversation at the BA assessment. I'm sure of that.

[wanttobeapilot]

@funkyt111
@martijn123

Could have been a case of prioritising what you need to know - when you need to know it.

A focus on passing an incredibly competitive day 1 first.

[Apollo 18]

A world of caution in case the uninitiated don’t know the game. The standards BA will require an FPP candidate to attain are significantly higher than the standards necessary to pass the various pilots’ licenses, and the promise of a refund will not relate to whether you pass or fail BA’s expectations.

The same goes for post-graduation employment prospects as the schools are producing significantly more pilots than the industry currently needs. If FPP don’t want you, why would you expect anyone else to? Remember too that if you get something like bar work within 12 months of graduating, the school still counts that as employment.

You’re investing 100K plus loss of earnings whilst training, so be aware that if you’ve done badly on the Compass memory test, you’ll struggle on the exams, emergency procedures, six monthly flight checks and the random questions captains like to ask before each flight. If you struggled on the distraction test – give up now as you’ll need to do ten things at once whilst landing. If maths wasn’t your thing, aviation’s all about the numbers for each operating procedure so you’re going to regret it. If the orientation test didn’t work out, you won’t be able to navigate ………….. and so on. This kind of investment isn’t for the faint hearted or the hopeful. If you don’t get a job out of it, it’s potentially going to ruin your life.

However those failing at stage 2 but intending to reapply should certainly complete the remainder of the tests they’ve already paid for if they can. This is invaluable experience, and there's no danger of you being allowed to attend on the same days as BA’s dedicated selection process. It won't help with getting BA interview experience though, and rest assured that their tests are more difficult.

Then when it comes to next year's application, remember that this years counts for nothing. You have to stand out all over again, and it always pays to make an impression at the Compass event as it could move you to the positive side of the border line.

[Hamsterminator]

@Martijn123

When you have several thousand applicants applying to these events, you will always get alot going through who perhaps don't know as much about it as you do.

Personally I think my mind emptied the moment I stepped into the assessment building, and having someone explain things like this to you in layman's terms can be very helpful to those who aren't clear on the facts. :ok:

[mavro26]

Doesn't matter how you compare yourself to others, the best men win and get to fly planes! Everything else is just noise along the way.

[Openwaters]

@Mavro26

...and the best women get to fly planes!!!

[Aspiration_Station]

CTC Day 1 is said to include a presentation from the FTO, Group exercises, and Aptitude tests.

Can anyone from who's been to CTC for Assessment Day 1 confirm this itinerary for me please?

Much appreciated! :)

[Pawel87]

Hi guys,

I was unfortunately rejected for OAA a few days ago.. Well, gonna try again next time. Do you know how it is with submitting another online application? If I already passed it once do I have to start again from the beginning? Thanks.

[mike_foyle]

I'm also still waiting for my reply from OAA. I'm hoping that no news it good news and that perhaps I'm sitting somewhere in the borderline between passing and failing. Congratulations to everyone who passed and better luck next time to those who didn't. Hopefully I'll find out this week :)

[BEA1959]

In all of my visits to OAA the groups have been 100% male.
Has anybody come across any female candidates?

[Trip86]

@BEA1959 - there were three females doing the assessment with me at OAA...

[CeeBee106]

@ (http://www.pprune.org/members/404044-elliotwestacott) ElliotWestacott (http://www.pprune.org/members/404044-elliotwestacott) - see you there on 17th!!

Cheers.

[BEA1959]

@ Trip86 Cool, I know there must be some, I'm just surprised I personally haven't come across any.

[Openwaters]

Three females at mine for CTC.

[mt623]

Hey,

I have got my first assessment day for CTC on the 24th and was just wondering if the aptitude tests set are only the PilApt ones? I.e. physics, logical reasoning etc are not tested. I believe the numerical tests are at the next stage with the interview, but if someone who has attended an assessment day already can confirm this/ shred some light, I would be very grateful.

Many thanks!

[James-]

Can anyone shed light on the salary increments that are applicable to a BA First Officer. I have looked all over PPRUNE for the answer but can only see the starting salary (as per the BA FPP site). Also, I have heard conflicting stories on the amount of years necessary before you get command?

Thanks

[veetwo]

Not sure about the exact pay scales for FPP but in terms of time to command, a LONG LONG time is the answer to that. For a long haul first officer position you're looking at 7+ years after joining the company. Short haul command probably 15-20 years and long haul command 20-25 years. Maybe even longer.

[southernjock]

James,

On Page 11 of this thread Stocious states the following:

According to a BALPA source, FPP salaries are as follows: (all are base salary on PP34 from 2011)

Year 1 - 22770
2 - 27628
3 - 32395
4 - 39047

No idea if this is correct or not.

[James-]

Thanks for the info. It makes interesting reading with that sort of time until command. How does that compare with other airlines?

Do you know with the BA FPP what your return of service is. I guess it must be at least 7 years if you are to have your full training paid for. What I guess I'm asking is whether its worth doing 7 years with BA and then looking elsewhere for a faster route to command.

[baldopilot]

Sorry, I have already asked you guys, but for the FTE assessment is the interview on the same day? Cause I know for OAA and CTC is different...thanks

[EZY_FR]

baldopilot
If you are doing your assessment at FTE, you do everything in one day.

[baldopilot]

@EZY_FR thank you! have you done yours already? I assume you go to the interview stage in case you pass the PILAPT+the other tests?

[FullTanks]

James-
If you are planning a career in civil aviation based upon gaining a place on the BA FPP programme, serving 7 years in order to pay back the loan and then leaving in order to seek a faster track to command, I would advise you to look elsewhere now and leave a coveted place available to someone more committed.
BA are not seeking 7 year co-pilots, they are recruiting their future captains and senior flight operations management, and this valuable opportunity should be viewed with that knowledge. In my experience of over 35 years very, very few pilots ever resigned from BA for the reason you suggest.
Regarding time to command, BA themselves would love to know the answer to that question. A previous Flight Operations Director took 17 years and I was a co-pilot for 15 years; the shortest time I know of was 5 years from ab-initio cadet to the left hand seat of a 737 - but that was back in the 1990s.
With the current flexible extension to compulsory retirement age above 55, no one - not even the pilot - can predict when they might like to 'call it a day'. In these circumstances planning future command courses, in order to satisfy crewing requirements, really does need the proverbial crystal ball.
This course is one for those with a totally professional commitment to a long term career with a world leading legacy carrier - if that is not what you want, please allow someone else the chance of a lifetime. Many successful candidates have waited over 10 years for this very opportunity.
If I have misinterpreted your intentions, I apologise and wish you good luck in the selection process.

[veetwo]

@James-

Dangerously close to thread creep here so I'll keep this brief and leave it there.

What I guess I'm asking is whether its worth doing 7 years with BA and then looking elsewhere for a faster route to command.

If you want to live in Europe, the answer is probably no. Very few people ever choose to leave BA simply because they offer some of the best terms and conditions around. If you did choose to leave, don't forget that other airlines in the UK are unlikely to offer you a direct entry command - you'd have to start again as a junior FO and work your way back up.

If however you see your long term future in the middle east or far east and have no intention of coming back, then I suppose you could choose to leave permanently if the offer of a direct entry command came up somewhere. But I suspect what you will come to realize is that your overall working conditions and quality of life matter much more than which seat you sit in. Command is obviously desirable, but it certainly isn't the be all and end all. This is particularly true in airlines like BA where seniority is king. As a senior first officer with good seniority on your fleet you can pretty much write your own roster. As a junior captain you cannot. Hence why many people deliberately delay their command or never bid for it at all.

Edited to say: I agree wholeheartedly with FullTanks. If you're already talking about leaving after 7 years because a fast command is more important than anything else, this probably is not the scheme for you.

[Bearcat F8F]

Thanks for the info. It makes interesting reading with that sort of time until command. How does that compare with other airlines?

Do you know with the BA FPP what your return of service is. I guess it must be at least 7 years if you are to have your full training paid for. What I guess I'm asking is whether its worth doing 7 years with BA and then looking elsewhere for a faster route to command.

I almost never get drawn into stupid keyboard wars over the internet and especially pprune. However given my passion for both flying and the BA FPP, I would like to say that you stand next to no chance of getting anywhere with that mindset IMO.

For a start most of us wannabes are mostly concerned about how to even get a foot in the door of commercial aviation, never mind about the quickest way to make captain. I suggest you be realistic and stop dreaming. And above all, try to understand the amazing opportunity you get with BA.

If you see this as merely a stepping stone to making captain as quick as possible, you can try Ryanair instead. They make captains relatively quickly there.

Good luck :ok:

[FullTanks]

I feel that is what I wanted to say, but I am much too polite.
Thank you, veetwo & Bearcat.

[mad_jock]

Actually using this to get your ticket and experence then going somewhere else is the best most logical method for a pilot I have seen yet on the thread.

To be honest the salary isn't that great our TP FO's get more.

You will get the bonus of the tax breaks so it is worth it.

Command is bloody brillant to be honest its when flying becomes fun again. You get to set the tone of the day and life becomes extremely easy in my experence.

20 years as an FO sod that although with the size of the crew base you won't be flying with the same special needs Captains week in week out.

Use it for yourself you don't owe BA anything once you have done your time.

[Stocious]

Don't forget those salaries are exclusive of bond repayments - £12,000 per annum and flying pay which should be worth at least £7-8k. That puts year 1 total remuneration back towards the low £40k mark, which personally I think is quite respectable.

I reckon that the number of FPP cadets who 'use' this scheme and intend to leave is pretty much zero. The selection process itself should have weeded those ones out.

BA seems to be able to cater to a lot of different career aspirations in terms of their bidding system. With enough seniority, if you want day trips and home every night, you could do it. If you wanted longer trips away or long haul, you can do it. There are plenty of SFO's who have enough seniority to bid for command should they so choose, but they prefer to wait in the RHS because of the lifestyle and roster freedom that is available to them.

It's also worth pointing out that if you have aspirations to do other things in BA than being a line pilot, there are plenty positions available to you that don't require a command as a prerequisite.

[veetwo]

Just ask the guy after 7 years if he still wants to leave for a command elsewhere. Those of us working at BA know what the answer will be, fairly pointless to debate it further.

[James-]

Thanks for your replies. It provoked the sort of reaction that I was expecting from some who have clearly read a little too much into my questions.

I think it is very important to fully understand every aspect of the career that you are entering (whatever it is). Why would you not want to command? surely thats what all us aspiring pilots are aiming for? BA are a brilliant company and this opportunity is excellent - theres no doubt about it. As for a career, I can't see wanting to work for another airline, however if its the difference between waiting 20 years to command or transferring to say Virgin and commanding after 10 then you would be insane not to consider it.

I guess if you are in no way interested about being in command or the financial implications to allow you to support your family, then you could work for free and pay for your own training.

Please do not think I don't appreciate what BA are offering. Its an excellent scheme, working for (in my opinion) the best airline. If I get a place I would be delighted and would happily stay with BA for a full career. As I said though, you need to fully understand what you're signing up to.

Good luck to all those still in with a shout!

[flying_god]

Hi,

How is everyone getting on at their Oxford Day 2 assessments ? I have mine next week (snow permitting)

Have they been able to give timescales as to when we will find out if we are through to the final round ? Is it down to Oxford or do they need to consult British Airways ?

I wonder if any of the three training schools give advice or feedback on how to perform at the final selection. I guess its in their interest that as many as possible of their chosen 100 get through.

Good luck to all those being assessed..

[Bearcat F8F]

Actually using this to get your ticket and experence then going somewhere else is the best most logical method for a pilot I have seen yet on the thread.

To be honest the salary isn't that great our TP FO's get more.

You will get the bonus of the tax breaks so it is worth it.

Command is bloody brillant to be honest its when flying becomes fun again. You get to set the tone of the day and life becomes extremely easy in my experence.

20 years as an FO sod that although with the size of the crew base you won't be flying with the same special needs Captains week in week out.

Use it for yourself you don't owe BA anything once you have done your time.
With all do respect, had you been fighting for this position like some of us, you also, most likely would not make it. It's not just about getting to the captain's seat. It's about working for a company you love and have passion for.

I am not saying that perhaps your expectations would be met once you do your time with BA, and perhaps that would be a good reason to leave. Which is fair enough. But going into the FPP and thinking about it as a stepping stone, well frankly I think you will be much less of an asset to BA than anyone who really wants to work for them.

Also, please tell me a better airline to work for in the UK than BA?

Looking at BA's salary it's one of the better options around. 1st year or two are not great (although fantastic compared to some others) but then it increases pretty rapidly. Not to mention the vast amount of different opportunities and aircraft available for anyone to progress to. I have yet to see a UK airline that has A320s, A380s (soon), 747s, 787s (soon), 777s, 767s.

But as I said, I don't have anything against people moving in the event that BA doesn't meet their expectations. Just find it incredible that some people discard this great airlines as a "ticket" to somewhere else so they can make captain.

[funkyt111]

I think he/she gets the message now..

[Hamsterminator]

Anyone heard anything about CTC stage two yet? I.e. being called forward to it or being told they've been unsuccessful?

Am getting restless about hearing back :uhoh:

[mad_jock]

Thats fair comment Bearcat.

And I wish you all good luck in your applications.

[daveandg]

Hey mate, I think relax is all you can do! CTC said not to expect notification for a few weeks, and this is because they need to collate enough scores to create an average, then the top x% will be invited forward for interview.

A conservative guess, it'll be the middle of next week earliest when they're in the final stages of 'event 1' (which is also a speculative guess based on the timescale)

[Hamsterminator]

Thanks daveandg,

Yeah I thought as much- i've kind of mentally prepped myself for the worst because the numbers of people going through to the end will be tiny- but it'll be a relief to find out either way!

:)

[EZY_FR]

baldopilot
I didnt apply this year but will do next time! This is coming from a friend who has already being through the FTE selection process. I wish you and everyone else here the best of luck with the process.

[Hobo]

Regarding command time in BA, which seems to be such a critical factor one way or the other for some people, for the 35 years of my experience (and of also being involved with 'postings and promotions') what worked pretty well with a static hull count was:

Look at the compulsory retirement date (CRD) of the most junior Captain (Capt C) on your join date.

With two crew aircraft, this would be the raw date that our new entry at the bottom of the F/O list could expect a command. (y years away)

Assume an attrition rate of leavers before CRD (if any) and loss of licence at 20 per year.

Ball park time to command is the CRD of the Captain who is 20y places higher up the seniority list than Capt C.

[Flatontheground]

I had a day two assessment centre at OAA this week and royally messed up. All of the assessment examiners are lovely and do their best to put you at ease, but it is tough and the competition was of very high quality - mostly physics and engineering graduates who seemed very confident and competent.

Sadly I seriously doubt I'll be getting invited to BA for the final assessment centre, but good luck to all of those who are lucky enough to make it that far, you will have done very well.

[wanttobeapilot]

How was Day 2 for those lucky enough to go through at Oxford.

How was the interview and group assessment?

[lukep95]

BA said they want three A-Levels BBC or above. If you have one normal A-Level + BTEC Level 3 Diploma which is 2 A-Levels, do they count them? Or do they have to be non-BTEC?

I'd like to give it a go after I've finished my course; so it'd be handy to know if they'd even accept that.

[ford cortina]

Luke, for the current programme they made it very clear what the requirements are:

either 3 A-Levels at Grades BBC or above, excluding General Studies.

or an Honours Degree at 2:2 (or higher) or a pass (or above) in a higher degree such as MSc, MA, MPhil, DPhil, PhD, MBA.

If you have equivalent academic qualifications then you will be asked to provide a Letter of Comparability from UK NARIC before attending your first selection day. The Scottish educational qualification equivalents are detailed in the FAQ page.

There is no mention of equivalent English qualifications (BTEC). It is rather clear cut.
You can only use NARIC if you have qualifications outside the UK. So unless you call them yourself, the answer is no.

Of course next year, if BA do run a FPP, then the entry requirements may have changed, it could be harder even.

[funkyt111]

If you have equivalent academic qualifications then you will be asked to provide a Letter of Comparability from UK NARIC before attending your first selection day. The Scottish educational qualification equivalents are detailed in the FAQ page.

Where does it say that equivalent qualifications must be outside the UK?? It just says if you have equivalent qualifications then please provide a letter of compatibility. Does not mention that they have to be outside the UK so on this basis, I would assume that you are fine.

[ford cortina]

If you could be bothered to check on UK NARIC's site you would see the following
UK NARIC is the UK’s National Recognition Information Centre and provides services for individuals and organisations to compare international qualifications against UK qualification framework levels. It is a Government service, managed by ECCTIS Ltd.

The organisation offers products and services in 3 main areas:

Services for individuals: UK NARIC provides comparison statements for people with international qualifications planning to work or study in the UK. The statements can be used by individuals to help them through the UK's immigration system, applying for a UK job or to enrol on an education course

If BA had said they would accept other UK qualifications they would have said.
As you yourself has said on this Thread before, It amazes me how people do not know such information? All the information is on BA's website dude.
Of course the best option is to check with the Recruitment Department of the Airline, after all they have the final say.

As one of my old ground instructors used to say, Read The F******* Question:ok:

[funkyt111]

I guess it makes you feel high and mighty to be so unnecessarily hostile and rude. :D

I did read the BA website thoroughly. I just did not read the NAIRC website thoroughly. :)

[ford cortina]

Funky and Luke, you want to enter a very demanding, stressful, tiring and rewarding industry. You are expected to use a large amount of common sense, be self reliant, use your intelligence.

If I have seemed rude to either of you, then your mistaken, I simply pointed out some facts. Harsh they may seem to be, but that's life.

British Airways, have been very clear in their requirements, if you are unsure you should use all the tools availble to you, contact the Recruiter, look at links they give you and contact said organisations. Asking this question on a rumour network is not the best use of your time.

[mavro26]

@Flatontheground

What makes you think it went so badly? You never really know what kind of things the recruiters are looking for. An overqualified and well experienced tool, is still a tool. I wouldn't be intimidated by others, in my experience everyone tries to pump up their chest at assessment centres, especially in the presence of their competition. What kind of things did you have to do?

[scott9432]

I have my CTC Stage 2 selection in Southampton on Thursday. Any tips from anyone who has done it already on what's in the group exercise? I think I have a reasonable idea of the PILAPT test and what it contains.

[Flatontheground]

Unfortunately my head just wasn't with it on the day due to having worked exceptionally long shifts in the run up to the assessment centre.

The centre ask you not to give explicit details of the assessment day and so I will respect their wishes, however there is a group interview/task followed by an individual interview.

As an aside, in response to people asking whether age plays a major role in the selection process, the chap who was assessing me was a BA 777 pilot, and he stated that last year's intake had several people who were over 40 years of age, so don't let that aspect put you off going for it.

Best of luck to all still in it.

[lukep95]

It's fine, rather given to me blunt than covered with roses. Since that's far from what the industry is.

I only asked since even Universities these days accept people with Level-3 BTEC's fine, simply because the qualification is just as good as an normal A-Level.

[fallingwithstyle]

@Luke

If your qualifications are equal to or better than 280 UCAS points then you should be fine.

[Anunaki]

Not being funny,but....coming from someone who know's the airline inside out after working there for many years, and meeting pilots everyday,some of you...you really need to get out of your high horse very fast!So much hostility towards your fellow candidates,you haven't signed your contracts yet and talk with such levels of arrogance that I can see what type of F/O's you'll become,the ones that will be eaten alive once on-line by the training Captains,they will smell the cockiness out of you and let me remind you that,after the industrial dispute in 2010,the company are spending a lot of resources to "ease" tensions,and improve camaraderie,and they take CRM very very seriously and you will be judged all the time on your attitude,please,have some class and start now....Aviation is a small world and people eventually will figure out who you are by your comments here.
The nicest pilot I ever met, happen to be an ex-fighter pilot(F-18's and F4's)also was on the Space programme,he was incredibly humble...then you get guys who haven't even touched a plane yet,talking to others like they have flown Concorde's...beyond unbelievable!
Is just some advice,take it as it is!:ok:

[Feedmemore]

Anunaky,

Let them dream, it s all they will get before the wake up call.

Most will not certainly fit the ball and will be washed out before the enter a ba cockpit. all their life they will have to work at tesco to pay back their loan....

BA doesn't need pilot. They just get a commission for each guy they can send to oxford or else.

Just wait for an attack from Iran, and their dream will be over.

Become a dentist... Safer and you can buy your plane.

[my_call]

Hey everyone,

Take a peek at the new look British Airways Careers website (http://www.britishairways.com/careers/)

[Hobo]

The lady captain appears to be wearing high heels, hardly practical for that engine out case!

[Hopeful cap]

Hi all
I am new to pprune so please don't have a go.
I have applied for the BA fpp and have been luck enough to make it past the aptitude test. I have a couple of question which are directed at current BA pilots as they are most likely to have an accurate answer. It would be helpful if people who do not know the answer refrained from answering with misleading info and also no BA bashing as that isn't constructive.

1. Are the contracts the offered to graduates of the fpp the same as those of the current pilots?

2. Which pension are the new pilots enrolled into, is it BARP or is it another scheme?

3. As a graduate of the programe are you classified as a cadet or a first officer? And as such if it was as a first officer would you be on the same incremental pay scale as the current first officers?

[funkyt111]

@KIAS, when I was at the assessment last week and I got told conflicting information from two of the assessors. The man that I spoke to said that there were 175 people left at FTE. Then we I had the one to one interview with the lady she told me that there were 375 applicants left. The man said about half of the 175 applicants would go through to the final stage with a guaranteed 24 slots for FTE. However the woman said that if only 5 applicants were good enough for the next stage then only 5 applicants would go through. The man worked for FTE and the woman said she worked for an agency and would be interviewing at the final stage too. :confused:

[ford cortina]

Hopeful Cap

Question 1 and 3:
The Future Pilot Programme involves completing all flight and simulator training, up to and including the type rating licence skills test (LST), as a cadet pilot and during that time the cadet pilot is not an employee of British Airways, APL or the FTO, and no salary is earned.
If a cadet pilot successfully completes all training to the required standards, and pilot vacancies at British Airways exist at that time, they will be offered an unconditional offer of employment as a first officer. From that point on the cadet pilot will become a permanent employee of British Airways Plc.
The year 1 basic salary for a Future Pilot Programme first officer is £22,770, with a further £8-£10,000 of flying allowances typically being earned in a full year of flying (please note that these allowances are not guaranteed and are subject to levels and type of flying completed). Remember that as well as pay and allowances, British Airways will pay you back your security bond, tax–free, at the rate of £12,000 per year for the first seven years of your employment as a pilot.


Question 2:
British Airways Retirement Plan (BARP) is the pension scheme for all new employees. This is a ‘contracted in’, defined contribution scheme. Additionally members of BARP will, subject to a qualifying period, qualify for Permanent Health Insurance.


The first is from the FAQ's on the FPP website, the second off the BA careers website.
Took me all of two minutes to find it, as I said earlier you need to use initiative and common sense. I am not being harsh, to succeed in this career you have to 'step up to the plate'

Best of luck.

[Hopeful cap]

Ford

Thanks for the reply, I had already read your quotes, however I don't find them satisfactory as I know first hand that BA don't always tell you everything and a job title doesn't mean anything when it comes to contracts.

To add add another question, if the new pilots are in BARP then which pension are the old boys in?

[lukep95]

I will indeed have over 280 UCAS points! My equivalent from the BTEC to A-Level is two A's. I'm also doing Geography A-Level, which is a standard A-Level course and looking to get a B. So at the end of it I'm hoping for AAB!

Maybe I'll give it a shot next year! Thank you.

[ford cortina]

Hopeful Cap
however I don't find them satisfactory as I know first hand that BA don't always tell you everything

and to think I have been acused of being a mad::eek::eek:

I hope you get your answers and wish you the very best on the rest of selection.

However juding by your response, you may have to wind your neck in a bit:ok:

[seymoreskye]

Ford Cortina is right.

Every other post is 'what do we do...' 'How do we do....'

Guys if you don't even have the effort to read the website, Call recruitment or even ring the FTO's yourself then I don't know why your even bothering trying to get into BA.

They have set a very high standard and I guarantee that those very select few who do pass, are not wasting time on here asking all sorts of questions and are actually just getting their head down and preparing for that 'One Shot'.

I wish you all good luck with assessments and give it your absolute best.

Those of you who don't succeed I shall see you in the 'Ryanair Sim & Assesment' Thread ;);););););)

[Hamsterminator]

While I understand the sentiment of "try doing things yourself" being touted by many here, I think it's misplaced.

Forums are just another way of gathering information after all, albeit a fairly unreliable one. But if you have a question, why not ask? You might learn something you didn't know before, and if you get innaccurate info- well that's the price you pay for trusting random posters over finding the info directly. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. For all the "you should do this yourself" comments there is also a fairly accurate answer to each question posed in this thread. What does that tell you?

Personally, i'd like to find out if a calculator is allowed in the CTC numerical reasoning test. My own internet browsings are suggesting no... but i've got no reply from CTC on the matter yet :ok:

[ford cortina]

Fair point Hamsterminator, but when you are simply dismissed when trying to help....

I have no axe to grind here, I am not trying to become a cadet. I have been in the industry for approx 10 years, I have a great job, I am not looking to join BA.
I am merely trying to pass on some hard won knowledge. I don't have to and judging by the reception I have received I should not have bothered.

It is one thing to ask for advice, it is another to ask for something that is easy to obtain, but you are too stupid/ignorant/lazy to look for yourself, even worse just to dismiss something someone has taken the time to write, just because you 'know better'

I can assure you British Airways is NOT looking for those type of people.

Please don't think I include yourself in this. I am only trying to help, if you want to succeed in the FPP, you will to shine, really shine.

Best of luck to you all, sorry I cannot help with the calculator:ok:

[mad_jock]

No Hamster you never get to use a calculator in a numerical reasoning test.

The reason for the test is because vast numbers of people just can't do numbers in their head. Haven't a clue how to divide and only know how to spell fraction. And time and motion is only to do with having a dump.

I will admit most of them will have better spelling and grammar than me. But as yet no plane has crash due to either of those traits. Quite a few though have crashed because some person hasn't managed to spot a gross error of over 10 tons on a load sheet due to a failure to carry a 1.

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

Mad_Jock, never say never! You certainly do get to use a calculator in the numerical reasoning test for FTE, although of course that's no indication of how CTC set theirs up. (It was, I should add, made clear in the FTE emails, in case anyone thinks I'm giving out privileged information!)

Perhaps there's more than one way to skin a cat.

[mad_jock]

There is a difference between numerical reasoning and a test which tests pratical application of maths.

The pratical application of maths it would be suitable to use a calculator because your are applying geometric principles along with physics concepts and the aritmetic is a means to an end to see if you understand those principles and concepts.

For numerical reasoning calculators will defeat the purpose of seeing how you mind processes numbers.

Its normal to have a time limit on numerical test which is quite tight because there are usually 3 different ways of solving the problem. Only the inherent ability to spot proportion and series and using rounding to simplify the problem will get it to work within the time limits.

Although it doesn't suprise me that thought if they have dumbed it down.

The most switched on pilot with mental aritmetic I have flown with was a 2nd generation Pakistani lad from Bolton who's parents ran market stalls. He could do a load sheet in his head including the moment calculations. If you had a LMC a second later he would tell you the new weights.

[Hamsterminator]

To settle the matter- advice received from CTC is to prepare to do the test with and without a calculator! That's fairly cryptic, but I think it's a polite way of saying they can't discuss the matter until the day. Still as Madjock says, it can't hurt to be quick with the mental and written arithmetic.

[DavidC83]

This forums gone very quiet! Anyone heard back from ctc yet after stage 2?

[flying_god]

I think we are all being good boys and girls by not talking about the assesment. I think invites to BA Towers will be arriving in early March.

[Openwaters]

Just got a rejection from CTC but have been offered CTC Wings. Best of luck to the rest of you waiting to hear.

[okeefeg]

Hi just go my date for CTC interview, has anybody been through one before?any tips? or has any sat the numerical reasoning tests? I have bought get a head for the sky etc but just wondering if anyone has any words of wisodm.

good luck to anyone waiting on confirmation, i know how ya feel, i was refreshing emails every two minutes.

Thanks a million

[baldopilot]

@openwaters did you get a rejection after phase II or phase III at CTC? sorry to hear that btw...

[Openwaters]

After phase 2. Thank you.... Totally gutted. Good enough to be accepted onto a flying course but not good enough to be helped with finance which is my problem. Best of luck to you all.

[champair79]

Got my acceptance on stage 3 this afternoon. Chuffed to bits. Was already preparing for the worst as I didn't think I did that well on PILAPT - ok but not amazing.

I've done numerical reasoning tests by SHL before when applying for various grad schemes. They're not particularly demanding in terms of the types of maths used (just basic division, multiplication, addition and subtraction). The hardest part is completing as many questions correctly within the alloted time period. Time can be saved by reading the questions carefully and also by how quickly you can interpret what is required. There is quite a bit of information filtering involved. Time can also be saved if you know some maths shortcuts (of which I confess to being no expert!).

Good luck to everyone in stage 3 (but don't stop me getting to stage 4 blah blah :E).

[Hamsterminator]

I must say I am really really nervous about the Numerical Reasoning aspect. Have been revising it solidly for a week and still can't get my scores much above average.

The SHL practice test at least seems to be fractionally simpler than others available online. I think that will be the only saving grace!

[Hamsterminator]

5th feb. No my revision was based on getting the go ahead last monday, have been revising solidly ever since!

I'd love to know how many people are getting cut from this next stage however, in CTC's own words only the "creme de la creme" are going through, and if my maths is anything to go by I am more like the scum at the bottom of la creme lol

:}

[kyarer]

Anyone else at CTC stage 3 tomorrow?

[naturals]

Anyone else at CTC stage 3 tomorrow?

No but good luck!

[kyarer]

Thank you! :-)

[okeefeg]

Well, I rang CTC today to confirm whether or not you can use a calculator and they said that you can and that they would be supplying them. hope this helps everyone attending.

Anyone found any other good sites for the numerical reasoning?SHL seems to be same stuff repeatedly...:ugh:

[Nicholas Kungu]

Hi, am Nicholas Kungu,a Kenyan citizen.It has always been my dream to become a British airways pilot but could not afford the high cost required to train.I therefore wish to enquire when the next future pilot programme is open for application and also the requirements for international students.

[MADCHESTER CITY]

Hi Kungu, I had a word with them on a Twitter and they said it is something they may see more of in the future..... so I'm assuming it will be open for the next few years.

5 GCSEs at Grade C or above, including English Language, Mathematics and a Science (single or double award), excluding General Studies.

either 3 A-Levels at Grades BBC or above, excluding General Studies.
or an Honours Degree at 2:2 (or higher) or a pass (or above) in a higher degree such as MSc, MA, MPhil, DPhil, PhD, MBA.

If you have equivalent academic qualifications then you will be asked to provide a Letter of Comparability from UK NARIC before attending your first selection day. The Scottish educational qualification equivalents are detailed in the FAQ page.

I don't know what the schooling is like in Kenya but you would need equivalent qualifications, to those outlined, above.

[Bearcat F8F]

Nicholas Kungu, do you hold an E.U. passport? If not, you are not eligible to apply.

[IFRKING]

Hello guys and gals!

I'm finishing my A-levels this June and have a few questions.
I'm age 18 and certainly don't have 80 odd grand to fork out of my pocket. The highest my parents could offer me was £30K and obviously isn't enough for a full frozen ATPL.:{

As I was reading through BA's FPP website, they mentioned that you'll require to deposit a security bond before you commence training.
Now this is where my problem starts..... My parents don't own a property nor do they own a vehicle which is worth £80k+ . (Correct me if I'm wrong) So this FPP programme obviously wasn't designed for me.:ugh:

I then later on came across CTC Wings cadet programme and unsurprisingly also require a security bond. I am aware of the Modular course BUT!, the chances of getting a job are extremely slim! I know 3 lads that have been unemployed 2+ years (and still are) with a 5 digit debt.

I was wondering if there are any sort of cadet schemes similar to this FPP where at least you have a decent chance of getting a job and don't require a security bond such as a property?
I would have thought to pay back the debt once I starting working with the airline that would sponsor me cadet scheme.
Honestly, I'd be more than happy to offer them my £30K as a security bond but I guess that sounds unacceptable from their point of view.

[funkyt111]

IRFKING,

BA FPP is the programme for you. Yes, they require you to deposit a security bond of 84k but British Airways are to secure this for you and hence, it does not need to be secured against a property.

So basically British Airways borrow you the 84k and this is secured with them.

Hope this helps :ok:

[flyingpony]

You say your chances of finding a job after modular training are slim. I'd suggest your chance of entry to any cadetship is going to be far slimmer. £30K is a rather substantial sum of money and would get you a long way going modular, at least CPL/ME and FI rating. By which time, if you've been working, you'd probably have earned enough to do your IR and MCC. Putting all your hope into a cadetship while you could be working on your PPL and experience building could be a mistake, even if you do have age on your side ;)

[likeflight]

IFRKING (http://www.pprune.org/members/388126-ifrking)
BAFPP requires you deposit an £84000 bond. This is paid in installments to your chosen flight training school. BUT, this can be borrowed from BBVA "a London based Spanish bank that will accept applications for the funding of pilot training".
Although BA pay successful cadets this bond back (£1000 per month for 7 years, once on BA's payroll), they do not pay you back any interest you have incurred during the loan period.
See: British Airways Future Pilot Programme (http://www.bafuturepilot.com/finance/)

[GiuseppeAlonci]

Hello, does somebody know when will become possible again to apply for the FPP? How does it works for the selection? I read on the website that you need to speak english fluently, but do you need a certificate? I'm from Italy. With a 110/110 bachelor degree in chemistry can I apply?

[Bearcat F8F]

Hello, does somebody know when will become possible again to apply for the FPP? How does it works for the selection? I read on the website that you need to speak english fluently, but do you need a certificate? I'm from Italy. With a 110/110 bachelor degree in (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7674039&noquote=1#) chemistry can I apply? You don't need any proof that you are fluent as such however at the assessment you will do a verbal reasoning test. Apart from that it will be very obvious to them how well you do or do not speak English during the interview and group exercise.

No one knows when it will open up again. This question keeps getting asked a million times on both of the BA FPP threads. But given there was just over year between this intake and the 1st FPP intake, I would imagine next autumn/ winter is a good bet but I'm sure there are many more unknown variables at this time for BA to know themselves.

[GiuseppeAlonci]

Thank you for your answer! Do you know if someone not speaking English as mothertongue has been admitted?

[baldopilot]

Giuseppe, I have been in the UK for three years doing uni and PPL, but I am not a native speaker and was invited to the assessment with FTE, currently awaiting reply. As a matter of fact I am italian :)

[Bearcat F8F]

Thank you for your answer! Do you know if someone not speaking English as mothertongue has been admitted?
There have been lots of foreigners at the assessments however I have no idea if any of them made it into the final 80 last year.

Put it simply this way, if you can communicate, read and write on a decent level, there is little to separate you from anyone else other than perhaps an accent. Make sure you can do all the verbal reasoning tests that you can find online. There are plenty of native speakers who struggle with these tests as well.

Whats more concerning to me however, and this may sound a little silly, is that every time I hear British Airways pilots speak, they always seem to have a very clear English accent and always sound very well-spoken. This is in my experience only. I do hope that there are some which have other accents as otherwise that would put some of us like me, out of luck. As I said, I know this sounds silly so I do hope that they are quite open-minded about accents in the FPP selection, provided communication is clear and presentable.

[GiuseppeAlonci]

Thank you :) I have no problem in reading complex english text, I read Joyce in native language xD The problem is speaking, but I will attend an English class and hope this will be enough... Given I will be admitted to an interview xD

[Stocious]

There are plenty of foreigners and accents in BA and on the FPP. They even accepted some people from 'Oop North' as well as from the Emerald isle. Can you believe it?!

[wiggy]

Can you believe it?!

I know, shocking isn't it!

Worse still :O we've got French, Danish, Swedish :E, American and even the odd Canadian, eeh, accent on the Flight Deck................oh, and Scouse......

I do hope that they are quite open-minded about accents in the FPP selection,

They are.

[Hamsterminator]

You'd be doing well if accent was chief amongst your concerns for gaining a place on the FPP!

[Libertine Winno]

As an example Lindsey Craig, the Manager of Pilot Recruitment at BA and a 737 Captain is Scottish, so accent will be absolutely no barrier at all!

The reason for the 'BA accent' is more to do with RT training and clear, concise transmission

[GiuseppeAlonci]

Most of the other issues have yet been treated in this topic :) I'm very scared of the aptitude test and of the interview, but I think there is little I can do about it, except reading about the experiences of others and practice with mind games on the internet ...

[GiuseppeAlonci]

I'm also studying a lot about flight safety, multi-crew operation, psychological matter and similar... I was just asking, because for example I read that for Swiss Air you must speak german VERY VERY well and need a certificate...

[Bearcat F8F]

You'd be doing well if accent was chief amongst your concerns for gaining a place on the FPP!
Haha. No it's not chief, don't worry. I'm glad they accept different accents though. :ok:

[Bite me]

Does anybody know when the results of the first round assessments are due out.
Thanks

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

May depend on the FTO, but we (FTE Jerez candidates) were told not to expect to hear anything until after the 18th February at the earliest.

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

When will this program be opened next time?

[GAZ45]

Last 2 years its opened around Oct-Nov-Dec period. So I guess if they see fit to recruit again they will re-open at a simular time.

I think theres 4 years of this scheme in the pipeline - or at least I read that somewhere in their info.

[Flatontheground]

Just out of curiosity does anybody know what the final stage at BA consists of?

[Hamsterminator]

Final stage at BA is another numerical reasoning exam, verbal reasoning, an interview, aptitude tests, and a medical if i'm not mistaken.

[Stocious]

Medical is not part of the day, but done sometime after being offered a place on the course.

[Bearcat F8F]

Hamster, the medical is always done at Gatwick and takes a full day. It's not part of the final BA stage.

Can anyone confirm that the last stage consists of yet another round of aptitude, verbal and numerical reasoning tests? What's BA's thinking behind doing the procedure a 2nd time? I mean we've already done all of these at the FTOs we selected.

[champair79]

Bearcat F8F,

The reasoning behind BA's request to do more tests is to ensure everyone is measured on an even playing field. The 3 flying schools have tended to do their own 'in-house' testing which broadly corresponds do their ab-initio full time course they offer to white tail cadets. For example, I know PILAPT is different from COMPASS (even though the aim of the systems is to measure similar characteristics of people).

Also, the tests may be slightly harder. Remember, they'll be 100 people from each of the 3 schools so it will the creme-de-la-creme so to speak. BA will need a robust set of tests to ensure everyone can be graded fairly but that they'll be a broad spectrum of results on the day so it makes picking the final 70 odd slightly easier.

Here's hoping I'm in the final lot (fingers crossed!). Good luck to everyone else as well.

[Bearcat F8F]

champair79,

OK, I understand :ok:

I just assumed they would spend the remaining available time to assess us on more specific character-related criteria (which I'm sure they will anyway) as opposed to another set of psychometric tests. The "level playing field" makes sense though.

Are you sure its just 300 candidates at the last stage? Haven't read this anywhere before. That would mean roughly 1 in 3 gets through from the 1st round of FTO assessments.

[Flatontheground]

Thanks guys. Does anybody know what the verbal reasoning and aptitude tests consist of?

Good luck to everybody - OAA said that BA will let us know within the next week.

[Hamsterminator]

Final stage at BA is another numerical reasoning exam, verbal reasoning, an interview, aptitude tests, and a medical if i'm not mistaken.

So I wrote this earlier believing it to be the case, but somehow cannot find out where on earth I read about it!

Part of me is thinking I might have been told it during the interview at CTC (I asked what happens if I go through) however without any written evidence I am doubting myself somewhat... due to nerves that entire day was something of a blur.

It may be my confusing BA's standard application process with the FPP also. The medical part could indeed be for another day.

[Michael Scott]

What further requirements are there to pass the BA medical that a Class 1 wouldn't cover?

[funkyt111]

@Hamsterminator,

Do not worry, you are correct.

There are further aptitude tests that are meant to be more complex than the ones at the FTO's. There is also a verbal reasoning test, a numeracy test, an interview and a group exercise.

[Bearcat F8F]

Michael Scott,
I don't think BA has their own medical. Its just a Class 1 and that's it. :ok:

[Hamsterminator]

You may well be right bearcat- ill amend my other post as from what I've read on the fpp page you do indeed only require a class one medical.

[Michael Scott]

Bearcat, thanks. Again I seem to have picked that up somewhere but now can't find it!

[Stocious]

All FPP cadets on last years intake had to do a BA Cadet Medical at Waterside and I'd be surprised if they didn't do it again. This was in addition to the standard Class 1 and was the last hurdle effectively to getting the final nod.

That said, if you can place one foot in front of the other, pee in a cup, pass a standard eyesight check and have a chat with a doctor about your general health then you should be able to pass it without any difficulty whatsoever.

[champair79]

At CTC we were told 100 from each school would be put forward (i.e. 300 total). There is no 'quota' that needs to be filled for each school so in theory the picked 72 could all be from one school (highly unlikely but possible...).

Odds are relatively good but remember even though it will be roughly a 1 in 4 chance, the standard will be extremely high so certainly nothing to be taken for granted!

[Hamsterminator]

Anyone heard back from CTC stage 2 yet?

[Flatontheground]

Not heard anything yet, but we should have the results by Monday at the latest according to OAA.

[daveandg]

Chaps.....without giving false hope because I'm as knowledgable as the rest, I was told to expect results at the end of this week or the beginning of next week.

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

I'm a very happy boy. Just received good news from BA.

Good luck to everyone else. Looking forward to meeting some more of you at Waterside!

:D

[freeflying]

Didn't get through, just the standard passed enough for self funded option. Still happy to have been given a realistic chance, I have a few ideas on how to improve next year if it runs. Good luck to the remaining

[funkyt111]

I have also just heard back from BA and got an invite to the final stage. Hope it's good news for others too.

[Hamsterminator]

If you're going through on the 15th, i'll see you two boys there :ok:

[SWATSON12]

has anyone from OAA heard back yet?

[Jamesandpie]

Dave and Hamster, what date ranges were you both given? Mine was 25th-28th March, nothing about 11th or 15th!

[southernjock]

James,

I would suggest if that is the case then they are probably running different dates for different schools and will only be showing you available dates for whichever 'batch' you applied through. Given Dave and Hamsterminator both appear to be CTC they have been offered the 11-15 Mar so I would guess this is the CTC window for applicants to go to Waterside?

Of course it may be too early to predict this trend :)

SJ

[Hamsterminator]

Wish I was given after the 25th! Would give me more time to prep...

Mine's for CTC, only got the option for 11-15th.

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

James, I'm assuming you're also FTE. I'm booked in for the 25th.

[flyhalf1010]

Booked for the 11th, anyone else? very excited

[funkyt111]

Just to clarify on what a rude chap wrongly said earlier in the thread. Any UK A level equivalents are completely fine. I am currently through to the last stage with a BTEC National Diploma. I do also have an A level Mathematics. However, on the invite to the BA assessment they ask for proof of A levels including NAIRC OR, UCAS equivalency. So future applicants, if you have a BTEC National diploma which is the equivalent to BBC then don't hesitate to apply.

Hope this helps.:ok:

[Shawrey]

Has anybody else received a reply from OAA? Hopefully not all the acceptances have been issued at once, as I'm still waiting for a response. This will be a long weekend! :oh:

[Bearcat F8F]

Quick question.

Is there anyone here who has applied for the 2011/2012 FPP, didn't make it after one of the assessment days and has been successful through the initial screening stage of the 2012/2013 FPP intake?

I know they state that they welcome unsuccessful applicants from the previous year to apply again but I am just curious if anyone has actually been accepted a second time round? I know someone who never got a reply from the initial screening stage this year and yet made it to the assessment day last year.

P.S. I didn't make the cut but I wish all those that have (and will) best of luck in the final stage. I hope I can give this another try next time if it opens up. Hence my question above.

Regards

[Macho Grande]

Oxford interview dates are from the 18th to the 22nd March. So from the above posts that means the three schools are getting a week each at Waterside. 11-15th for CTC, 18th to 22nd for OAA and then 25th to 29th for FTE.

I'm not sure how quickly I got to the booking page (about 1.67 heartbeats after getting the email) but I only counted 18 slots on the day. If that's the case then that would indicate OAA put 90 people forward for interview at Waterside. Did anybody else notice before they booked? Can't go back and check now I have booked. I was told by the school to expect in the region of about 100 nominations from each flight school for the next phase.

[Bensmatthews]

Has anyone heard from OAA yet? I am guessing we'll be expecting emails on Monday (tomorrow)? Good luck to anyone else who's waiting!

[kolkg]

Just got my no from OAA this morning, disappointing news but I will make it. Good luck to the rest of you going to Waterside. :)

[Ianp83]

I've just had my OAA reply, alas not the one I was looking for. Best of luck to anyone else waiting to hear.

[Jason2000]

Wasn't so fortunate this time either - received my rejection letter from OAA today also. Now to continue on Plan B - and still work towards my licence and an eventual job...long road ahead!

Very best wishes to all those still in the game - good luck. To those no longer in the game, good luck too, keep at it! :)

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

@stocious

All FPP cadets on last years intake had to do a BA Cadet Medical at Waterside and I'd be surprised if they didn't do it again. This was in addition to the standard Class 1 and was the last hurdle effectively to getting the final nod.

That said, if you can place one foot in front of the other, pee in a cup, pass a standard eyesight check and have a chat with a doctor about your general health then you should be able to pass it without any difficulty whatsoever.

You don't half talk out of your backside.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

@jason2000


Wasn't so fortunate this time either - received my rejection letter from OAA today also. Now to continue on Plan B - and still work towards my licence and an eventual job...long road ahead!

Very best wishes to all those still in the game - good luck. To those no longer in the game, good luck too, keep at it!
Time to think about those questions relating to deling with bad news. Stay positive, make a list of the things you felt went well, and those that did not go so well. Go deep and meaningful in your own personal review.

[sprthompson]

I too found out today that I was leaving the process.

Don't be disheartened guys - this was the second year I applied and I believe there will be at least one more year they run this.

They've run similar schemes in the past so if you're in your early 20's or less then no doubt another scheme will come around.

I've spoken to current BA pilots who got through on their FOURTH attempt in previous schemes.

Congratulations and good luck to all who will be heading to waterside in March, and to the rest of us, chins up :)

[Orangaphobia]

So does that mean there is or is not a medical done at the selection day?

[Paging Mr Loggins]

Hi All, I have been invited to the final interview towards the end of March and I was wondering what computer aptitude tests they were going to test us on; does anyone know if it will be the same as the previous round or if it will be something else? Thanks

[Paging Mr Loggins]

@KIAS my ASI

Helpful...

Personally, I thought it was about being the best person for the job. What does it matter if we all know what tests will be coming up? The cream rises and all that... I just want to be prepared.

Also, I wasn't specifically asking the people who are up for selection currently; how would they know (unless they tried previously)? I have searched the net and found very little out there, so the only way to find out (I know) is to ask.

Also, my question wasn't directed at insolent people like yourself, it was directed to the people in the know eg. people that were successful last time; BA insiders; etc.

I know that if I pass, then I will happily help anyone with the initiative to ask.

Good luck (if you are applying). :ok:

[Stocious]

You don't half talk out of your backside.

Well that was rude. :ugh:

In what way am I talking out of my rear? The fact that there is/was a cadet medical, or the fact that it was less strenuous and involved less questioning than giving blood?

I know last years FPP intake had to go to Waterside for a cadet medical prior to starting their course, because I wasted a day doing it! It was nothing that my own GP 150 miles away couldn't have done or signed off. The questionnaire that someone mentioned for DEP job offers was filled out whilst I sat in the waiting room at Waterside, and I was in and out again in about 15 minutes. If I recall correctly, the majority of the consultation with Dr MP revolved around him putting my height, weight, blood pressure and home postcode into a computer programme, and it revealing how likely I was to suffer from heart disease by a certain age!

I highly doubt they are doing one thing for DEP's and another for cadets.

It appears they are. Or at least they were last year.

So does that mean there is or is not a medical done at the selection day?

No medicals on selection days.

[hatchet_h]

I gave this program some consideration last year, however decided against as I felt it too risky. To those who didn't make the final cut and those who do please think carefully about the below.

British Airways and its parent company have severe financial problems. It has a huge pension fund deficit and its bonds are rated as junk. Its parent company is losing a billion Euros a year and could potentially take British Airways down with it. Analysts have referred to British Airways as a “Pension Fund with Wings” such is its pension fund deficit.

If British Airways ceases trading or you get made redundant then you still have to pay back the 100k loan. Even if you or your parents have not guaranteed the loan against a property and British Airways has acted as a guarantor then you are still responsible in all cases.

As a new cadet you will enter the short haul fleet for at least the first 5 years, short haul currently does not turn a profit. In the Analyst call transcript it states “We're going to move on now to my last slide, which is about short haul. Now, we know that short haul needs to be profitable in its own right. That's absolutely clear.” British Airways has in the past sold off parts of its short haul network and I have no doubt that they would do so again if they could still feed the long haul network. Would you still have the same enthusiasm if the short haul was sold to FLYBE, Easyjet or Ryanair ?

British Airways requires that you take out life insurance to cover them for the bond. I take this to mean it doesn't want to have to pay your bond back if you die before its finished. Doesn't give you a warm fuzzy feeling does it?

Those who do make the cut are given a “conditional employment contract“, but there is no mention of the conditions. Do you have to get 100% in ground school exams? Does British Airways have to be profitable? Do the 787 battery problems need to be fixed so they can expand?

There has also been a succession of law breaking at British Airways. Virgin dirty tricks (read the book if you have not), fuel surcharge collusion, freight pricing collusion. It wasn't that long ago that British Airways was threatened with a fine for flying a 747 across the atlantic with only 3 engines functioning: British Airways Flight 268 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_268)

Labour relations seem to be awful. If you have not read the thread on here dating back to the Openskies dispute, then you should. 90% of Union members voted, of which 86% voted to strike. The end result was the British Airways Pilots getting humiliated in court as they had no legal basis for striking. The legacy cabin crew do not have a great relationship with the pilots. The mixed fleet cabin crew contract is an example of what British Airways can do to split its employee groups to lower costs, then make redundant the higher cost employees.

This quote summed up to me why I don’t want to work at British Airways: “Some people who have dealt with me have said that I can be unreasonable. And I'm disappointed, actually, that it's only some people who say that.” That’s a direct quote from Willy Walsh and if he wants to instill that culture in IAG and British Airways, I don’t want to be part of it.

I am in a secure well paid job, but my passion for flying could not overcome the huge risk that joining this program would entail. I wish everyone the best of luck, but before you sign you should consider all of the above.

[Skittles]

I don't even know how to respond to that.

[wiggy]

Skittles,

You're not the only one...., but it is, seemingly, :rolleyes: hatchet's first post so maybe we should cut him/her some slack, and assume they're a glass half empty rather than a glass half full kind of person.

hatchet

Like you I could trawl through the media for a few stories about an airline and then post similar dire warnings...especially if I wanted to put off the opposition, had an axe to grind or simply wanted to indulge in a bit of mischief making...

I'll leave the detailed financial stuff to someone better qualified, but I would say that IMHO for whatever reason you're painting an overly pessimistic, slightly extreme picture of IAGs/BA position:

As to a couple of your other points:

There has also been a succession of law breaking at British Airways.

I'm not condoning BA's behaviour in the cases but why single them out - are you perhaps trying to imply that all other airline's are squeaky clean? Do you remember which UK airline was also involved in some questionable behaviour/law breaking, along with BA, and then indulged in a bit of whistle blowing TCTA? In other areas (e.g.basing policy, passenger's rights) some other airlines seem to be perpetually fighting and sometimes losing, relatively low level legal cases, they win some, they lose some, so I suppose by definition they also "law break".

The legacy cabin crew do not have a great relationship with the pilots.

Interesting you brought that one up - what are your sources for saying so? Please don't believe for one minute the nonsense and spin you see posted elsewhere on Pprune by one or two individuals, who may or may not have been Union reps, who are still desperately trying to fan the embers of a dead industrial dispute. In reality most legacy cabin crew are a pleasure to work with and socialise with. That said if the idea of dealing with legacy fleet is still a cause for concern then remember their numbers are in decline as Mixed Fleet grows in size. By the time the FPP'ers hit the line legacy fleet will probably make up a minority of the cabin crew workforce.

Given you obviously don't recommend working for BA which paragon of virtue/financially 100% secure airline would you recommend people do apply to?

FWIW my own POV, based on over 35 years in aviation, the majority in BA, is that whilst I don't want my own offspring going into flying at all if they do insist on doing so then the BA FPP is probably the only decent deal in town at the moment.

[Wirbelsturm]

The legacy cabin crew do not have a great relationship with the pilots.

Well, there were 14 of us out last night for a rather pleasant meal and conversation. So I don't know where that little gem has come from.

Ironically both sets of CC are an absolute pleasure to fly with. With the sad events of the IA behind us I can categorically say that the atmosphere on the aircraft is possibly the best it has been for many, many years.

Everyone loves to mention the pensions deficit quoting facts from 6-7 years ago. Since then IAG has increased payments into the scheme. APS is slowly disappearing, NAPS members have had to increase their contributions for a lower pay out and the company has introduced BARP for new joiners, a money purchase scheme. The upshot of all of this is that the pensions plan is looking very healthy into the future.

Short Haul has recently (post BMI integration) increased productivity with the overall aim of turning profit by 2015. Whilst many seem happy to slander the 'unprofitability' of SH they don't grasp the funding concepts behind a feeder system. The movement of Airbus to Gatwick this year should see an improvement in their productivity as the increase in airframes will allow a greater flexibility of route structure as more airframes means less time for each one needing to 'touch' Gatwick for the slots. Chances of SH being 'sold off', very, very slim. IAG want continuity of product.

Law breaking? There are few major international companies that don't push the boundaries. Remember that the partner for the Atlantic scheme gained immunity from prosecution by blowing the whistle. Also back filled EU legislation has been responsible for some of the negative press about operations. It shouldn't go on but it does. Fly to Africa and see how far a pious attitude gets you.

“Some people who have dealt with me have said that I can be unreasonable. And I'm disappointed, actually, that it's only some people who say that.”

I have spoken to Willie Walsh on several occasions and he is a very competent CEO. His job is to bring profitability to the board and a dividend to the investors. He isn't in it to be Mr Popular. I would suggest that other CEO's of blue chip companies would be exactly the same.

but my passion for flying could not overcome the huge risk that joining this program would entail

Your choice but many of the 'facts' you posted are either old and outdated or put with a controversial touch. Things in the company are most definitely not how you would lead people to believe them to be.

Enjoy!

[wiggy]

True, there are some nice crew out there but having nice meals and drinks out with the crew? Get real!

NM

No idea what goes on with Euro fleet but it does still happen on long haul.

[Wirbelsturm]

Northern Monkey,

Come on wirb.. Not sure which planet you live on but you'd have to be completely blind to reality to think everything was hunky dory between pilots and cabin crew at BA.

What an absolutely ludicrous reply. Were you there? No. So how can you possibly comment? I don't know what short haul is like these days, it's a a long time since I was on it but I do remember that a lot of crew just went to bed as the turn around times were so short.

True, there are some nice crew out there but having nice meals and drinks out with the crew? Get real!

Excuse me? Obviously a large table full of people enjoying a meal was a figment of my imagination, perhaps I should mention it to the doctors at my next medical.

Don't spout rubbish if you have no knowledge of the fleet you are spouting about. SH is a different kettle of fish to LH. LH was, traditionally, the strong hold of BASSA, I've seen that fundamentally change over the past 2 years. Hence my post.

[Wirbelsturm]

The biggest problem on SH is that you do not carry the same crew on all sectors and run a day 'as a crew'. It used to be done that way at LGW but never at fortress Heathrow.

Therefore, with 3/4 different crews a day, it can be difficult to get any form of social bonding going on. The sectors are busy and the nightstops are short. As flight crew we generally go out for a drink for a bit of a wind down. The crew don't tend to as they want to save allowances or just sleep. I saw it for years on SH and I wouldn't call myself a difficult person either.

The difference is that this was never down to the dispute of a few years ago, this was always there. On LH however there was a far more distinct 'them and us' feeling, especially when you got active Union crews together. In some respects this was fuelled by the company with the increase in perceived importance that the CSD was given. Even so far as to contemplating making the CSD the second in command many years ago.

My point was to counter a sweeping generalisation that things are strained between the CC and the FC. This is fundamentally wrong. The atmosphere, especially now that the power of BASSA has dissipated, is far more pleasant then it has been for the past decades on the LH fleets. You will always get the occasional one who wants to remain apart, that's their choice but in general it has been a big improvement.

If you haven't been on the LH fleets of old you wouldn't understand just how difficult they used to be.

[hatchet_h]

Many thanks for your replies, it is interesting to get your perspectives.

I do think however we share a common purpose. I am sure you do not want to see the terms and conditions in your industry further eroded by an influx in supply of pilots willing to work for free or a very low salary. You may not think that this affects your position at British Airways, however i am convinced it does.

Therefore when potential wanabees like me step back and do not accept to be burdened with 100k of debt to be paid a salary of 21k a year it also benefits you. The end result would force airlines to at the very least pay for training and preferably earn a living wage salary during it. If trainee doctors, atc, lawyers and train drivers can benefit from this, then I dont see why pilots can't too.

The end result would be a more capable pilot workforce who were selected on ability alone, not those who can afford to live without a salary for 18 month. I appreciate British Airways is not as far along the exploitation scale as other carriers, but I did still view it as exploitation.

Why do you think it is that British Airways is willing to pay its Engineering and IT Graduate Trainees 24 to 27k a year during training and not its pilots ?

With respect to the poster with 35 years experience, the decision i arrived at was the same one you would hope your children to make. I have just chosen to articulate my reasons for the benefit of others.

[SkyRocket10]

SH is a different kettle of fish to LH

All FPP cadets will join SH, and in all likelyhood they will be there for AT LEAST 5yrs. I was around during the industrial unrest, and although there has definitely been an improvement, I think this is mainly attributed to the mix of ex BMI crew, who incidentally go out of there way to pop up to the fligh deck for a chat. Often this doesn't go down well with legacy crew!

Overall, there has been a marked difference in the last year, however to go as far as to say

With the sad events of the IA behind us I can categorically say that the atmosphere on the aircraft is possibly the best it has been for many, many years

is purely a LH view, and not one typical of SH.

[wiggy]

At the end of the day I doubt many newbies are going to decline to apply for, or accept a place on, a BA course simply because of the stories they hear in this place about the attitude of some of BA's Cabin Crew.

Quite right too....