MANCHESTER 1
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From memory it was intended to completely gut the existing T2 building and completely rebuild the inside. That would presumably equalise the floor heights so that it is "double height" throughout the enlarged building.
Whether that remains the case or not is unclear.
Whether that remains the case or not is unclear.
My main concern is what appears to be a very circuitous route from check-in to gate.
No change there then !!
Suspected that might be the case ! I guess the Dutch project leader will be costing 15% more since June 2016 for a start. After reading the gushing M.E.N. article first, for a moment there I thought they had posted the wrong video into the page by mistake !!
I know budgets have their limits and have to be respected, but on the other hand I thought MAG wants this facility to be the premier gateway outside the SE and a showcase for the Northern Powerhouse. Hopefully the video doesn't do justice to the full extent of the long term plans and vision.
No change there then !!
The project has gone through several rounds of value engineering such that it is almost unrecognisable from that first proposed in June 2015.
I know budgets have their limits and have to be respected, but on the other hand I thought MAG wants this facility to be the premier gateway outside the SE and a showcase for the Northern Powerhouse. Hopefully the video doesn't do justice to the full extent of the long term plans and vision.
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I know budgets have their limits and have to be respected, but on the other hand I thought MAG wants this facility to be the premier gateway outside the SE and a showcase for the Northern Powerhouse. Hopefully the video doesn't do justice to the full extent of the long term plans and vision.
Afraid to say it does look as if the bean counters have been at work - or is the correct term value engineers these days?
Let's hope the end product does indeed have more of a wow factor while still being efficient..
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TOTM, you make some excellent points. It is a difficult balance, but MAN can't afford to neglect the more prestigious long haul carriers and their passengers in terms of the airport experience, especially as it is rightly focused on winning more pax from the wider region in its role as an International Gateway, passengers who might otherwise use LHR.
Just a personal view but having checked-in in a nice airy, spacious environment, I wouldn't want to find myself airside in somewhere rather more claustrophobic. It isn't always easy from these walk-through videos though to get a clear perspective of size, design and distances. I'd like to think this particular video perhaps doesn't do the final results justice.
Just a personal view but having checked-in in a nice airy, spacious environment, I wouldn't want to find myself airside in somewhere rather more claustrophobic. It isn't always easy from these walk-through videos though to get a clear perspective of size, design and distances. I'd like to think this particular video perhaps doesn't do the final results justice.
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Tears of the Moon
The use of visible ducting was and is championed by British architect's Sir Richard Rogers and Sir Norman Foster these being the best known. Hidden ducting increase's costs on both build and maintenance so is now often value engineered out, and you will find it used at the airports in HK/SIN/Doha/ Muscat/ DXB and many others. I worked on those named so I can tell you its there, and a few others as well.
The design ideally would reflect something of the character of the area (or it would do if we were sitting on huge oil / gas reserves, or were a commercial hub for a large section of the Far East). Instead we are a small island which is possibly going to have to wake up to the fact very soon, and Manchester is a secondary gateway within that, therefore we end up with a "shed" much like the other sheds / distribution centres / shopping centres scattered around UK Plc, very few of which have architectural merit, but serve a purpose.
I would very much like to be involved in an architectural statement building, but there really is not the money for it, and as everyone knows shopping is where the money is for an airport along with the car park. As long as the premium lounges are catered for as you say, most people do not seem to care about the airport surroundings, it is all about foot fall. Sad but true.
Regard's
Mr Mac
The use of visible ducting was and is championed by British architect's Sir Richard Rogers and Sir Norman Foster these being the best known. Hidden ducting increase's costs on both build and maintenance so is now often value engineered out, and you will find it used at the airports in HK/SIN/Doha/ Muscat/ DXB and many others. I worked on those named so I can tell you its there, and a few others as well.
The design ideally would reflect something of the character of the area (or it would do if we were sitting on huge oil / gas reserves, or were a commercial hub for a large section of the Far East). Instead we are a small island which is possibly going to have to wake up to the fact very soon, and Manchester is a secondary gateway within that, therefore we end up with a "shed" much like the other sheds / distribution centres / shopping centres scattered around UK Plc, very few of which have architectural merit, but serve a purpose.
I would very much like to be involved in an architectural statement building, but there really is not the money for it, and as everyone knows shopping is where the money is for an airport along with the car park. As long as the premium lounges are catered for as you say, most people do not seem to care about the airport surroundings, it is all about foot fall. Sad but true.
Regard's
Mr Mac
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can well understand the frustration amongst contributors here that MAN's projections for post-expansion T2 are not reminiscent of Changi, (new) Doha, or Hong Kong CLK. That would be nice! But we need to temper our expectations. MAN T2 is unlikely to ever serve as home-base hub for a world-class full-service carrier.
The reasons are more complex. You talk about functionality and such, and my reasons for the dislike are actuall based on that principle too.
Point 1) narrow corridors.
in a terminal being designed for 20m+ passengers, is it really functional to have such narrow spaces in areas that are principally supposed to keep a good flow? People stopping to look in shop windows, sort out their items and such, is that really aiding the function?
Then it looks like the 'food market' is a cul de sac, so, you will have a narrow corridor having not only 2 way flow for he food market itself, but any lost pax who take a wrong turn etc. That will creat all sorts of crowding.
2) seating
I know, I know and I know again that airports now rely on retail and food revenue, but, having the lack of seating in these designs tells me that they have paid no attention to feedback. One of the biggest things in reviews, social media and CSQ's is lack of free seating apart from the gates, to which now you can't even do as you only go to your hate and pier once the flight is called.
Would it really be so hard to adapt areas for seating? It just means those who don't want to pay £20 odd quid for a crappy breakfast or £4 for a coffee congrugate in the passageways and corridors, thus creating congestion. The lack of free seating may boost your revenue, but you pay for it in other ways. If MAN really want to be an airport the north can be proud of, let's have a few more seats instead of jazzy looking but uncomfortable benches placed in random locations.
3) added capacity
So, where has this capacity been added to aid growth? Certainly no new stands, overall the security areas will be the same size in relative terms from 1 each at T1/T2 to the 2 in T2, same amount of baggage carousels as in the combined T1/T2, so it's just more room for shops. And more shops, and oh, more shops. Great.
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One of the major problems with the current design for the TP is that it bears very little resemblance to that proposed in June 2015.
Feel free to Google image search (other search engines available...) the renders from this time.
When looking at these, it is difficult not to have high expectations. The impression is of a completely new build terminal, which is light, airy and spacious. It provides a uniform look to the airport in a unique style.
When looking at the present design, and now the walk through, the impression is opposite to the above. The new terminal is actually a "bolt on" extension, with no apparent attempt to get a uniform external appearance. Certain areas look light, but the walk though gives the impression of a cramped dark shopping mall.
Expectations, set so high in June 2015, have tumbled accordingly.
It is difficult to say what the solution is within budget. Perhaps the terminal building can be expanded so that the floor space can be opened up more around the Central atrium. Perhaps it could be taller? All this requires another planning permission, and possible delay to the project.
There should be opportunity to deliver something of high quality. The airport is looking to attract high end airline customers. Also, the clientele on low cost carriers are not exactly the dregs of society. I hope a reasonable compromise is found.
Feel free to Google image search (other search engines available...) the renders from this time.
When looking at these, it is difficult not to have high expectations. The impression is of a completely new build terminal, which is light, airy and spacious. It provides a uniform look to the airport in a unique style.
When looking at the present design, and now the walk through, the impression is opposite to the above. The new terminal is actually a "bolt on" extension, with no apparent attempt to get a uniform external appearance. Certain areas look light, but the walk though gives the impression of a cramped dark shopping mall.
Expectations, set so high in June 2015, have tumbled accordingly.
It is difficult to say what the solution is within budget. Perhaps the terminal building can be expanded so that the floor space can be opened up more around the Central atrium. Perhaps it could be taller? All this requires another planning permission, and possible delay to the project.
There should be opportunity to deliver something of high quality. The airport is looking to attract high end airline customers. Also, the clientele on low cost carriers are not exactly the dregs of society. I hope a reasonable compromise is found.
Join Date: Jul 2016
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I have also heard of the AVP moving south and the aircraft stands in it's place. This is what has been said about it.
'Land has also been identified within the extended operational area at
Cloughbank Farm to the west of the aircraft maintenance area. This
area affords direct access to the taxiway network and has the possibility
to accommodate relocated cargo stands or stands required for
overnight parking.'
I believe that the number of stands is 20 (narrow body) or 10 wide in a MARS config.
'Land has also been identified within the extended operational area at
Cloughbank Farm to the west of the aircraft maintenance area. This
area affords direct access to the taxiway network and has the possibility
to accommodate relocated cargo stands or stands required for
overnight parking.'
I believe that the number of stands is 20 (narrow body) or 10 wide in a MARS config.
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Nobody is calling out the huge number of customers who appreciate bargain airfares as the dregs of society. I absolutely love bargain airfares myself ... though, OK, everybody says I am the dregs of society. But those I see travelling aboard no-frills flights alongside me generally are not. They're just people who will accept no-frills travel in return for a bargain fare. Nothing wrong with that at all. But they must also accept the airport's own revenue-driven hard-sell utilitarian proposition as part of the deal. Premium passengers will be directed to prestige lounges commensurate with the fares they are paying.
What I am trying to articulate is that passengers who appreciate a cheap air fare aren't necessaraly averse to parting witharge sums of case in other items (eg airport shopping) and have the warewithal to do so.
I realise this plays in to the high density shopping arcade model, but retail can and should be a pleasant experience. If T2 is to be a glorified shopping arcade (I have no problem with this in principle) there is no reason why it cannot also be light, spacious and inherantly functional as an airport terminal.
It does not have to be gold plated to achieve this.
If T2 is to be a glorified shopping arcade (I have no problem with this in principle) there is no reason why it cannot also be light, spacious and inherantly functional as an airport terminal.
MAG has always maintained that the TP as envisaged so far is broadly capacity-neutral.
TOTM - also makes the common misconception that everyone flying on a LoCo are paying low fares. They certainly are not. Lo Co is a low cost airline- not a low fares airline. Sure, some will be paying peanuts, most will be paying the going rate and a few an eye watering amount.
Nobody is asking for a marble palace.
How you get from the west end of T2 to the east of of T3 will be interesting.
(The Skylink from T2 to T1 had EIGHT travelators out of service when I walked through last week).
However, you look at it, it looks like the threshold bar has been set pretty low before even a spade is dug- I expect it will end up a shed with shops, with cheap tempremental lifts and escalators.
The best I can hope for is that the blue buckets get retired.
Nobody is asking for a marble palace.
How you get from the west end of T2 to the east of of T3 will be interesting.
(The Skylink from T2 to T1 had EIGHT travelators out of service when I walked through last week).
However, you look at it, it looks like the threshold bar has been set pretty low before even a spade is dug- I expect it will end up a shed with shops, with cheap tempremental lifts and escalators.
The best I can hope for is that the blue buckets get retired.
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I realise this plays in to the high density shopping arcade model, but retail can and should be a pleasant experience. If T2 is to be a glorified shopping arcade (I have no problem with this in principle) there is no reason why it cannot also be light, spacious and inherantly functional as an airport terminal.
It does not have to be gold plated to achieve this.
It does not have to be gold plated to achieve this.
The centrepiece appears to be a huge living wall, decked out in evergreens and flowing over both floors of the terminal.
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Yes we'd love to see a Heathrow T2/ T5 style terminal, but the bare facts are:
Heathrow - airlines have to and will pay £millions for a pair of slots and around £40 per departing passenger in charges. MAN - airlines pay zilch for a pair of slots and £7 to £15 per departing passenger and won't pay any more. OK, HAL doesn't get the slot money directly but shows how skewed the picture is.
Heathrow - airlines have to and will pay £millions for a pair of slots and around £40 per departing passenger in charges. MAN - airlines pay zilch for a pair of slots and £7 to £15 per departing passenger and won't pay any more. OK, HAL doesn't get the slot money directly but shows how skewed the picture is.
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Having only just looked at the still pictures with that M.E.N. article, I have to say that on the whole they give a more favourable impression. There are a couple showing what appear to be narrow corridors but the colours on the stills help to give a lighter feel and the arrivals hall certainly looks fine.
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In the midst of a discussion about a recent 'Grand Designs' programme (?) I noticed this comment.
Any time frame on this? (No, I'm not about to start banging on about the RVP move)
I believe that the number of stands is 20 (narrow body) or 10 wide in a MARS config.
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Yes we'd love to see a Heathrow T2/ T5 style terminal, but the bare facts are:
Heathrow - airlines have to and will pay £millions for a pair of slots and around £40 per departing passenger in charges. MAN - airlines pay zilch for a pair of slots and £7 to £15 per departing passenger and won't pay any more. OK, HAL doesn't get the slot money directly but shows how skewed the picture is.
Heathrow - airlines have to and will pay £millions for a pair of slots and around £40 per departing passenger in charges. MAN - airlines pay zilch for a pair of slots and £7 to £15 per departing passenger and won't pay any more. OK, HAL doesn't get the slot money directly but shows how skewed the picture is.
1- I understand charges to airlines make up a very small percentage of the airports revenue streams. If that is the case, I would expect: (a) the landing charge discrepancy you note above to have a minimal impact on the finances of the design; and (b) this to incentivise the airport to design and build a destination terminal in order to entice passengers to spend money so rental income from retailers is maximised.
2 - the South East is very expensive to bud in. The profit on charges to airlines should go further at MAN than it would at LHR.
Obviously the airport have come
Up with a concept and design they are comfortable with, and I expect these issues to have been discussed as part of the process. I'd have expected a slightly different conclusion to this, but I don't have acess to the big picture.
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Chandeliers, it needs more chandeliers. Anyone know where they went?
It's interesting at just how much money GIP have thrown at Gatwick. It really has transformed an airport where the major tennants are easyJet, Norwegian, Monarch, Thomas Cook, Thomson and locos like BA short haul. (no joke intended)
It's hard to balance the needs of locos against the wider wishes of the premium carriers but LGW has charted some way. Even Dublin is well set up for the future, even though the road to get there was somewhat farcical......DUB T2 is really nice.
It's interesting at just how much money GIP have thrown at Gatwick. It really has transformed an airport where the major tennants are easyJet, Norwegian, Monarch, Thomas Cook, Thomson and locos like BA short haul. (no joke intended)
It's hard to balance the needs of locos against the wider wishes of the premium carriers but LGW has charted some way. Even Dublin is well set up for the future, even though the road to get there was somewhat farcical......DUB T2 is really nice.
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Betablocker uk
The grand design concept is for those cities with deep pockets and unfortunately large regional airports in the UK do not have that luxury. Personally speaking I thought T2 was ugly when built and it looks worse now, and I avoid if possible, but have had to use it recently a bit more, and my view remains the same - ugly. Also when mentioning the shopping aspect many brands dictate the set out of the shopping experience be it food or other products, and it is difficult to sometimes not feel as though you are in yet another Shopping Mall.
The point about seating is true but airports can not charge you for sitting, so seats are invariably in retail outlets until you get to the gates, and this is quite a world wide trend. As for the lounges T2 are poor in my opinion, where as the EK T1 because of its view and layout, is one of the best on their network.
Generally I do not think any airport or station with possible exception of St Pancras is an external masterclass, and even SP is a conversion project as the "new" shed at the end is a poor add on. Anyway we will see what sort of "shed" we will get, and what colour it will be, as the external view is one of the few things which differentiates terminals as well as the transit experience for us SLF. Rant over !
Regards
Mr Mac
The grand design concept is for those cities with deep pockets and unfortunately large regional airports in the UK do not have that luxury. Personally speaking I thought T2 was ugly when built and it looks worse now, and I avoid if possible, but have had to use it recently a bit more, and my view remains the same - ugly. Also when mentioning the shopping aspect many brands dictate the set out of the shopping experience be it food or other products, and it is difficult to sometimes not feel as though you are in yet another Shopping Mall.
The point about seating is true but airports can not charge you for sitting, so seats are invariably in retail outlets until you get to the gates, and this is quite a world wide trend. As for the lounges T2 are poor in my opinion, where as the EK T1 because of its view and layout, is one of the best on their network.
Generally I do not think any airport or station with possible exception of St Pancras is an external masterclass, and even SP is a conversion project as the "new" shed at the end is a poor add on. Anyway we will see what sort of "shed" we will get, and what colour it will be, as the external view is one of the few things which differentiates terminals as well as the transit experience for us SLF. Rant over !
Regards
Mr Mac